57% of Dominicans live in poverty

[MikeFisher]

what a Crap as usual.
the one who is not interacting with the poor nor living surrounded by them seems to be yourself here.
Dreaming of the fancy Jeepetas of your wealthy Dominican clients doesn't bring you any knowledge of such.
you are the typical one who get's the arrogant stu Gringo rate at any shop anywhere, specially in any poor Barrio, doesn't matter what color your Skin has, people smell that.
Mike

 

[mountainannie]

One Dominican friend explained that the issue was not so much education-- but that there is not a perceived link between education and success-- that the way to get ahead here is to be "pegado" - connected-- that you are far more likely to get a job with a relative than anything in the market place.

I would also suggest that the guy who was condemned for buying the moto and the truck may actually have been trying to make an investment that would provide a livelihood -- for a delivery service, for selling veggies -- etc.. He may have lost his money but perhaps the thinking behind it is not so dumb.

I agree with Bob Sauders that what is missing is teaching critical thinking. From what I have seen, lots of the education here is simply rote repetition - getting information out and then back out-- without so much use of the processor between their ears.

 

[RacerX]

DV8, you are wasting you time here. Most of these expats who are beating this horse to death don't really live here or have little time living here or just live in expat communities. Its quite clear they have no idea of how the poverty culture works here. It's only a wishful thinking on their part: how DR should be but it has nothing to do with how DR is (in reality). All we are seeing is how much these folks know about world events from africa to cuba to famous dictators in the world, but I wonder, how much it has to do with the reality in DR? Nice google searched knowledge but sorry, all this is not worth beans to the dominicans.
We are the people who live here and interact with poor dominicans on daily basis for years. We know how these people act, think and breed. You folks have no idea. Its best you listen to us now than later because no matter how you folks will try to paint it, the reality will not change over time. The poor dominicans care less for your ideals, they will continue to live the same way.
This thread has become from comical to boring to simply pathetic. You folks need a better hobby than to bore us with the useless googled knowledge. Its simply borrrring!!! No wonder so many fo you have no real girlfriends or boyfriends. Is this how you converse with dominicans? God help you.
Now let the poor be poor in peace.
AZB

Here is what I understand, and I am open to influence.

syc?o?phant (sĭk'ə-fənt, sī'kə-)
n. A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.

?noun
a self-seeking, servile flatterer; fawning parasite.

Synonyms:
parasite, leech, barnacle, bloodsucker, bum*, freeloader, scrounger, sponge,

A leech is a carnivorous or bloodsucking aquatic worm typically having a sucker at each end - or a follower who hangs around a host in hope of gain

Take it how you want to, it is erroneous to assume that one only acquires information by Google. It is as though you were the only person in this country who went to a university. Or only your university education counts? I know you want to believe that because it helps your megalomania but lets be clear here and give you an accurate description of who you sound like:

You sound like the guy in high school who extols the virtues of the "cool kids" as long as they let you ride in their Camaro. The guy who can rationalize all of their homo-erotic aggressive behavior as long as you get a Varsity jacket out of the deal. Makes me think there is more going on in the back of that luxury jeepeta than you want to admit.

I agree some of these poor people get on your nerves. But we dont live in a vacuum, where there is ONLY ONE ITEM which explains it. So it could only be a statement made from pure ignorance to blame people who cant get a piece of the pie for why they cant get a piece of the pie. I know what goes on in those inbred get togethers you go on. I d assume a buffet of gluttons by those who have stolen the pie. You spend alot time working that Marie Antoniette routine. To each his own but you make it sound like your experience is the only one that counts. "I m a winner here and you guys are losers" Dfk outta here man. "I get rich big tittied honies while you guys get barrio babes with stretch marks and stab wounds, whose teeth are so craggedy you could sharpen knives" Come on man, no sale. How is it that you have the best of everything and everyone else is sitting on the dock of the bay?

I think you may be the problem with the Dominican Republic. You and your self-serving peers are the ones that the international aid groups come and talk to. You make it a sin to be factual and altruistic. People can draw their own conclusions. Lets examine it: a dude who never has anything good to say about the people here but has been here for 10 years? If it pains you so much why do you stay? If you eat salty meat in a restaurant every day for 10 years when there is/are better provisions right down the street. Why do you stay?

Some poor people waste opportunities trying to look rich instead of trying to be self-sufficient. Not a exceptionally dominican thing. But what did you say? "Oh the old man got drunk while his son was working hard. See, he could NOT wait to screw up." Your point should have been that in spite of having a unprofessional dad this young man was put together well. And if I ever have a party where the menu consists of more than mouthwash and napkins I ll hire him as wait staff. I think this way. You kill two birds with one stone this way. He could network among your wealthy freeloaders and build his business, sans papa, in the hospitality services. But I didnt hear that. So tell me what you know, like I wanna hear it.

 

[Robert]

Some good stuff here

Keep it nice and the thread will survive.

 

[DRob]

One Dominican friend explained that the issue was not so much education-- but that there is not a perceived link between education and success-- that the way to get ahead here is to be "pegado" - connected-- that you are far more likely to get a job with a relative than anything in the market place.

I would also suggest that the guy who was condemned for buying the moto and the truck may actually have been trying to make an investment that would provide a livelihood -- for a delivery service, for selling veggies -- etc.. He may have lost his money but perhaps the thinking behind it is not so dumb.

I agree with Bob Sauders that what is missing is teaching critical thinking. From what I have seen, lots of the education here is simply rote repetition - getting information out and then back out-- without so much use of the processor between their ears.

Sure, but the same thing applies in the U.S. Most jobs (and virtually all of the most desirable ones) never appear in the want ads. They are filled through personal connections. I've worked for three very large companies in the past 15 years, and none of those positions was listed in the paper. Such is the way of things in a first world country, so I'm not surprised to hear the same happens in DR.

AZB, you really should stop falling back on the "do you live here" excuse. There's no shortage of DR nationals and long-term expats here who disagree with you. Which means you've gotta argue the merits, however meretricious they might be.

Back to DR - and that 5 year old. Again, who wants to volunteer that quality education (as opposed to what they get there in the public schools) and opportunity (through both accomplishments and acquantainces) will be wasted on her, and the focus should just be on the top socio-economic tier?

Or is it possible that, for some people at least, there is value in helping maintain an abnormally large lower class of people? Admittedly, some folks will always be poor, but poverty deflates prices and inflates the egos of those who find themselves doing better here than in their own countries because of the economic disparity (and despair).

It's always interesting to note that many who say quality education for the poor will have no difference are constantly struggling and sacrificing to get their kids into the best secondary schools and universities in the world.

 

[AZB]

what a Crap as usual.
the one who is not interacting with the poor nor living surrounded by them seems to be yourself here.
Dreaming of the fancy Jeepetas of your wealthy Dominican clients doesn't bring you any knowledge of such.
you are the typical one who get's the arrogant stu Gringo rate at any shop anywhere, specially in any poor Barrio, doesn't matter what color your Skin has, people smell that.
Mike

Wrong on all counts. I am an excellent people watcher and observe aspects of daily life here that many are totally blind to. I have spent almost all my time in DR, dealing with poor people, all the way from puerto plata to santiago. After interacting with them for so many years, I have come to a far better understanding of them than many will ever get to experience. i simply choose to be with people who pay my salary. I have no use for the poor, on the contrary, they need my help more than what they can do for me. I do my part when it comes to helping them but to actually marry into one and have kids? I think its plain stupid. I have no need or desire to live among them or to even think like them. There are plenty of poor desperate people in usa and aren't these the same areas you folks have avoided living all your lives? So what has changed here?
I repeat, I know more about the poor barrio folks here than many of you guys will ever come in contact with. I can even speak like them and I can even enter their minds. Only idiots fall into their traps. there is nothing to learn from them or to gain any thing of any value. let them live in peace and go on with your lives. You will change nothing.
AZB

 

[RacerX]

There is poverty here because there are 10,000,000 people on a small island with limited resources (there are plenty of human resources here.)


You know, it irritates me to have First Worlders come...or worse, visit...this country, and begin to tell the citizens what to do and how to do it. Yet not one opts for citizenship so they can actually PARTICIPATE within the "system" of governamce here. It's easier to bitch and complain and tell someone else how to dig that ditch in the sun while sitting in the First World shade.

It's so much easier to tell the poor, ignorant natives what they're doing wrong...

Correction, there are 20,000,000 people on this small island of 2 countries.

 

[AZB]

Its all too simple.

AZB, you really should stop falling back on the "do you live here" excuse. There's no shortage of DR nationals and long-term expats here who disagree with you. Which means you've gotta argue the merits, however meretricious they might be.

Oh please, we are way off subject here. people are actually talking about robert mugabi and edi amin dada. give me a break. An average university educated dominican has little idea of what you sages are talking about, imagine the poor? The bottom line is simple: the people who struggle to get ahead in life anywhere in this world, will eventually get a break. The lazy (not my fault-victims) will fall behind. The poor in this country are not doing enough to advance in life. If any one of you have worked with them, or employed them, will notice most of them are an expert in screw-ups. They will screw up on the simplest jobs. No common sense and all they do is seem to make the wrong decisions. This is why they are poor, not because the rich are keeping them below them, the fact is, the poor don't need any enemies here. They are their own worst enemies.
So please stop with the BS of belgian economy or the edi amin regime. You people are talking to yourselves and it has little to do with the topic or DR economy.
AZB

 

[RacerX]

Oh please, we are way off subject here. . give me a break. An average university educated dominican has little idea of what you sages are talking about, imagine the poor?

Might be another underlying problem in this country. If the most intellectually disposed in this country have no idea of the world at large, then who gains what?

The bottom line is simple: the people who struggle to get ahead in life anywhere in this world, will eventually get a break. The lazy (not my fault-victims) will fall behind.

There is no proof in this. Bruce Springsteen could tell you that you gotta do more than work hard and expect to get ahead solely on that. A lot of people work hard and end up with just that. The solace of a great work ethic but nothing more.

No common sense and all they do is seem to make the wrong decisions.

I agree here. But this is related to critical thinking and the ability to be rewarded for processing the information you receive. An educational system constructed on Rote and repetition of presumed facts doesnt help. People are idiots because its the best thing going. They are idiots because its preferable to preserve the status quo. I personally find that many people cannot process long term thinking or prudent decision making skills, unless they have family or have been outside this country for a period of time.

So please stop with the BS of belgian economy or the edi amin regime. You people are talking to yourselves and it has little to do with the topic or DR economy.
AZB

Labor exploitation and theft of profits from natural resources has nothing to do with Hispaniola?
Extracting what you said that I agree with.

 

[bob saunders]

Wrong on all counts. I am an excellent people watcher and observe aspects of daily life here that many are totally blind to. I have spent almost all my time in DR, dealing with poor people, all the way from puerto plata to santiago. After interacting with them for so many years, I have come to a far better understanding of them than many will ever get to experience. i simply choose to be with people who pay my salary. I have no use for the poor, on the contrary, they need my help more than what they can do for me. I do my part when it comes to helping them but to actually marry into one and have kids? I think its plain stupid. I have no need or desire to live among them or to even think like them. There are plenty of poor desperate people in usa and aren't these the same areas you folks have avoided living all your lives? So what has changed here?
I repeat, I know more about the poor barrio folks here than many of you guys will ever come in contact with. I can even speak like them and I can even enter their minds. Only idiots fall into their traps. there is nothing to learn from them or to gain any thing of any value. let them live in peace and go on with your lives. You will change nothing.
AZB

I was sort of agreeing with you until you got to the last 3 sentences. My mother in law is one of those poor, uneducated( she has grade six) people. She is however intelligent, a keen judge of people and extremely honest. She is a deeply religious and caring person. My wife, Yris has been able to, with careful selection, make a huge difference in help some poor people change their life for the better. She has also had a couple of extreme failures, but that doesn't stop her from looking for people with potential and giving them the opportunity to grow. Otherwise I agree that many of the poor will remain that way regardless of the opportunities because that's what they are comfortable with.

 

[Acira]

The fact that the education system is poor is an inpediment to having a good education, but this is not why a person suceeds or not. My wife has two degrees from UASD, plus more education here in Canada but it is not just her education that has brought her modest success, but her drive from an early age. I've met life long friends of hers and they all say the same, that she belived she would be successful through hard work and sacrifice. Other than those that inherit their wealth or sell drugs the majority of people that are sucessful did it through hard work and sacrifice. Many, many Dominicans that get no publicity send their kids to the public school, or Catholic school or small privates schools like my wifes( which is around $3000 pesos per year, supplies included). The children that apply themselves, suceed and have the opportunity to go to university. UASD is cheap and only the very very poor can not afford to go. What is missing from Dominican Education is teaching Critical thinking. For the education system to suceed the parents, above all, must take it serious, by insisting that the schools perform and that their children do also. The partnership between parents and teachers is very very important. My wife loses teachers to the public system almost every year because they want to get on the ghovwernment gravy train and where they don't have to perform to a standard. Yris makes them prove that they are teaching to HER standard. It is amazing that the majority of teachers I've met do not know how to properly produce an exam.

Very good and interesting point.

 

[cobraboy]

Correction, there are 20,000,000 people on this small island of 2 countries.

That makes it even worse...

But as you know I was only mentioning the DR since they are independant from Haiti. The population and resources hardly overlap.

Haiti is responsible for itself as is the DR.

 

[AZB]

I was sort of agreeing with you until you got to the last 3 sentences. My mother in law is one of those poor, uneducated( she has grade six) people. She is however intelligent, a keen judge of people and extremely honest. She is a deeply religious and caring person. My wife, Yris has been able to, with careful selection, make a huge difference in help some poor people change their life for the better. She has also had a couple of extreme failures, but that doesn't stop her from looking for people with potential and giving them the opportunity to grow. Otherwise I agree that many of the poor will remain that way regardless of the opportunities because that's what they are comfortable with.

Actually i presented my views on the most simplest terms and left out the details. I agree with you. Like I said, I also help the poor in real need and I am always in favor of people who are trying to improve their lives. I was referring to the poor people who are only looking for handouts who are too lazy to change their own lives. People who are always victims and refuse to take responsibility of their actions or of their failures in life. I can also show you plenty of examples where people have changed their lives for better. These people had an aim in their life and they went out and got what they were after. After living here for so long, I see most poor are simply poor because they either make the wrong decisions in life, too lazy to make any real changed in life, even after they have been given an opportunity, or simply they are losers in life who are not capable of doing anything constructive. take a look at a local girl in a barrio: 17 yrs old, already has a child with a tigre, no father and no husband, zero education and no hope for the future. This is rampant here in all barrios.
There is nothing the government or the rich can do to change their lives if these people are not willing to get off their arses and make a positive change for themselves. So please stop with the world economy BS and the government statistics or UN and CIA warnings. The people are poor because they are poor in their minds. Period.
Most of you people (not you bob) just sound like chatter boxes now. Go have a beer and plan your next vacation here,. This is how you will help the DR economy.
AZB

 

[cobraboy]

There is nothing the government or the rich can do to change their lives if these people are not willing to get off their arses and make a positive change for themselves. So please stop with the world economy BS and the government statistics or UN and CIA warnings. The people are poor because they are poor in their minds. Period.

AZB

The more folks want/expect gubmint to fix the problems, the more those same folks get disappointed.

One will never achieve any modicum of success...no matter how they define it...without BEHAVIORS and ACTIONS congruent with achieving that success.

All living in the past does is make a person *feel* good about their perceived victimhood. You'll never change the past. And if you let the past be your anchor to your victimhood, you'll never succeed in the future.

Lament the atrocities of the past, condemn evil white colonialization/imperialism, theft of resourses, blah blah blah. But get it out of your system ASAP and begin living for today and tomorrow, acquiring tools NOW to deal with that.

 

[puryear270]

True

"The people are poor because they are poor in their minds. Period."
AZB

Having worked with people in poverty for many, many years, I can tell you that there is great wisdom in this sentence.

The issues of poverty in the world (not just in this beautiful country) are like peeling an onion: one layer after another, and each one makes me want to cry.

We can pour millions of dollars, pesos, euros, and pounds into combating poverty and building effective social and physical structures, but the greatest challenge faced will be getting people to believe in themselves and seeing new possibilities. Change is not easily embraced in any society. The status quo releases its hold only reluctantly. This is true in every nation and among every socio-economic group, including those who are poor.

I'm not saying I like this reality: instead, I'm saying that change will only be achieved when people believe in themselves. How to get people to believe in themselves is a challenge for which I do not have the answer, but I believe education is the key.

 

[cobraboy]

"The people are poor because they are poor in their minds. Period."
AZB

Having worked with people in poverty for many, many years, I can tell you that there is great wisdom in this sentence.

The issues of poverty in the world (not just in this beautiful country) are like peeling an onion: one layer after another, and each one makes me want to cry.

We can pour millions of dollars, pesos, euros, and pounds into combating poverty and building effective social and physical structures, but the greatest challenge faced will be getting people to believe in themselves and seeing new possibilities. Change is not easily embraced in any society. The status quo releases its hold only reluctantly. This is true in every nation and among every socio-economic group, including those who are poor.

I'm not saying I like this reality: instead, I'm saying that change will only be achieved when people believe in themselves. How to get people to believe in themselves is a challenge for which I do not have the answer, but I believe education is the key.

Great post.

And IMO education is not an ends but a means, a tool. Laying unused in the box, edumacation is a waste.

One must put edumacation into action with behaviors. Good intentions are meaningless. Action is what matters.

 

[puryear270]

And IMO education is not an ends but a means, a tool.

Good intentions are meaningless. Action is what matters.

I agree completely.

 

[Robert]

Keith and Cobraboy. Take your differences to PM or email and sort it out.

That will be the last word on that in this thread, by anyone!

Carry on...

 

[cobraboy]

...

Didn't see Robert message. Sorry.

 

[Acira]

I just give you one example of how a system in a country can change rapedely.

Not a 100 years ago or just so, hundreds of thousands man/woman/children worked in the cotton/spinning industry. Going home every day with a few franks to buy mabye some potatoes, going home to a wooden shack, living in "barrio's", no sanitary facilities, no health care whatsoever, no electricity, no running water, no education.

The establishment at that time found it not necessary that these people should have an education, why should they, they breed like rabbits and thats good for our industry (spoken and written words), give them the chance to stand on Sunday in the church, give them a good preach of how important they are in that system to work hard, to be content with the opportunity they got to work in the factories, to thank God on their knees that the establisment was there to "help" them.

The majority of these people were settling in to that life, never known anything else so not aware the slightest bit that it could be different. Young girls at the age of 13 or 14 were pregnant or had already a child, mostly not by their choice but hey, thats life...
Kids died by the hundreds in those factories due to their innocense, due to their youth, due to their ignorance but hey, that was life also...

Until one man stould up, an educated man yes, even one from the cloth but he saw the misery and couldn't take it anymore and he spoke out.
He spoke of the right to vote for the common man, he spoke of a better life, he spoke of the fact that even the poor should learn to read and write, he spoke of the fact that what the common factory man was earning was not correct.

He was the right man at the righ moment because at that time some groups of people already started to question that system.

It took a lot of casualties and almost a civil war (but that would be a disaster and luckely didn't happen) but he turned the dice and the establishment didn't fall but had to back off.

Only a good hundred years ago...from an midevel caste system to a modern society who prospered well. Wages went up, people got education and like I said, it was the right time, just after WWI so economy was booming.

I come from an average working class family, both parents had to work very hard for what they had but thanks to the above I had the chance to make a difference in my life. I got the opportunity to go to school and I had the opportunity to make a choice and I made that choice. Some of my generation didn't but thats their good right but not me, I took that opportunity with full hands and made my career, one I would never could have made if that man hadn't stood up.

My point is that poor people indeed will to a degree never will make a change in their live because they do not see or do not want to see that it can be different, some individuals will do so by themselves and make it out of it, but sometimes with the "help" of one man or woman or a group who clearly speaks out and at the right moment, the tie can turn for a lot of poor people and it definetely can change the course of a whole country.