Now, that is a suggestion I'll agree with. As an aside, will have to say that some of the EMPLOYEES that work in the A1's and also the caddies at the courses are the best pr people this country has. Excellant at giving out advuce on where to go/see/do. Most nights of my trips are spent going into town and hanging out with a few people I've come to know over the years. Whether shooting pool or going to someone's house to catch a beisbol game, always a fun and entertaining night.jstnorv05 said:
- Thread starter jstnorv05
- Start date
All-Inclusive Cattle Herd
jstnorv05... not AI staff - Tour reps.
It is not really the AI staff telling the tourists how dangerous it is outside the resorts. It is the tour reps, and they work for the charter companies that brings the tourists here.
The AI staff is usually very humble when it comes to this, gives advices for everything from good local stores to dentists...
Don?t mix those two categories, it is two completely different professions with completely different employees.
It is not really the AI staff telling the tourists how dangerous it is outside the resorts. It is the tour reps, and they work for the charter companies that brings the tourists here.
The AI staff is usually very humble when it comes to this, gives advices for everything from good local stores to dentists...
Don?t mix those two categories, it is two completely different professions with completely different employees.
I have to admit that I have softened of the AIs a bit since I began this thread. I can see that not all AIs and not all their staff use the practice of exagerating the dangers of the DR to make money. Anyone who does engage in this practice should be ashamed of themselves, however. This country has major economic problems and is surprisingly safe despite their problems. Does the AI where you work make some attempt to help alleviate some of the difficulties of the country, Carina?
carina said:
jstnorv05 said:
I don?t work at an AI, but live in Puerto Plata, and have many clients in my work ( I am not a sankiette, but work in promotion/marketing ) in Playa Dorada.
Actually Fundacion Patria is organized by members of Playa Dorada, and foremost Mario Mattana, director of Fun Royale-Tropical.
That foundation does alot for the schools in Puerto Plata, financially and also with education, health issues and more.
Not enough with one organization, I agree. But they do a great job and its a good step in the right direction.
Many of the touristcompanies also sponsor this foundation financially, so does tourists.
Carina is right.
In general the employees of the AIs are eager to have tourists experience the delights of their country and many will go out of their way to be helpful.
Tour Reps (who are generally not Dominicans), on the other hand, are intent on scaring tourists into utilizing only their tours where they receive an average 40% commission from the local tour operator in order to offer it in their excursion book. The untruths which are told are enough to make your hair stand on end and SHOULD make their noses grow very, very long. They should, as a group, be ashamed.
I know this is a generalization and I am sure there is an exception to each case - I just have yet to see one.
Gregg
P.S. - Carina are you sure about that sankiette comment (LOL)?
In general the employees of the AIs are eager to have tourists experience the delights of their country and many will go out of their way to be helpful.
Tour Reps (who are generally not Dominicans), on the other hand, are intent on scaring tourists into utilizing only their tours where they receive an average 40% commission from the local tour operator in order to offer it in their excursion book. The untruths which are told are enough to make your hair stand on end and SHOULD make their noses grow very, very long. They should, as a group, be ashamed.
I know this is a generalization and I am sure there is an exception to each case - I just have yet to see one.
Gregg
P.S. - Carina are you sure about that sankiette comment (LOL)?
FireGuy said:
Haha.. yes, pretty sure...
There are always 3 or more interesting parts at a hotel who all wants a piece of the buck:
-The hotel itself, where the tourists live.Offering extra services such as
beauty saloon etc.
-The tourcompany, that have their tourreps representing them, and that also sells excursions to the tourists.
- Some independent touroperator selling excursions ( type Cocotours ), usually at the beach or by the pool.
At some places there are also vacationclubs, kids clubs.
My experience, I agree with you Gregg, is the ones going on and on about how dangerous it is outside the resort, is not the local hotel employees, and usually not the independ seller of tours either. Those people are locals, either expats or Dominicans, they live here and have often done so for many years and usually like to chat with the guests.
The ones promoting that for instance here, where I live, that Puerto Plata is unsafe or dangerous is usually the tour reps, usually from other countries and in general they do not much experience of the island either.
There are exeptions for sure, I have not seen one yet, but there must be.
Behaving with normal caution, as in every other country, DR is not dangerous, nor unsafe. It?s a pleasure to explore the island and to get to know the people. Sorry if those words takes away a few 40 % commission from someone, but I am sure there is space for both excursions for the tourreps to sell and for some " tour rep free time" for tourists.
the real issue
the real issue is that all inclusives suck the blood of the local economy. im some contries AI's are not allowed. they ruin the local economy. check the history of AI's in mexico for example. If this country where to stop the AI's the economy would blossom. AI's are like locusts feeding on the economy till it kills it.
the real issue is that all inclusives suck the blood of the local economy. im some contries AI's are not allowed. they ruin the local economy. check the history of AI's in mexico for example. If this country where to stop the AI's the economy would blossom. AI's are like locusts feeding on the economy till it kills it.
Yes these are the ones that the Tour Reps call pirates and claim that they are all unreliable, don't ever give refunds, are unlicensenced and are uninsured.carina said:
My friend Martin Espinal, who started as an English speaking taxi driver and has progressed by word of mouth recommendations to operating Isaira Tours across from the Iberostar Costa Dorada and Coral Marien in Costa Dorada is one such pirate, by this standard. He is the most reliable person (note I didn't say Dominican) I have ever met, gives refunds when appropriate based on the situation and is both licensed and insured and posts copies of the documentation on his website - and still the Tour Operators slander (IMHO) him and others like him who have as much right to sell their tours as do the Tour Operators.
Mi dos pesos.
Gregg
I have stayed at the A1's and used them as bases. During the day I would hire a local taxi from outside the hotel to take me wherever I wanted to go for the day, never had any hassle from anyone and was never told I shouldn't go to certain areas.
Made great relationships with the locals and enjoyed places that tourist would not otherwise see. Seen the cock fights, gone to the river on a sunday and spent the day with locals who were very hospitable and respectful. Gone to the local saturday night bachata party and experienced the simplicity of country life.
Experiencing culture and visiting as a tourist are really two different things both of which are available in the DR the choice is yours to choose what you want out of your vacation.
Made great relationships with the locals and enjoyed places that tourist would not otherwise see. Seen the cock fights, gone to the river on a sunday and spent the day with locals who were very hospitable and respectful. Gone to the local saturday night bachata party and experienced the simplicity of country life.
Experiencing culture and visiting as a tourist are really two different things both of which are available in the DR the choice is yours to choose what you want out of your vacation.
eldorada said:
What a phoney excuse for using AI's. So I stay there, eat there, drink there and someone gets to drive me around to look at the po' folks like at a zoo. So the local economy gets no money for their hotels, restaurants and bars and the giant resorts exploit the locals working there and you help. Well done.
What??
What do you think the "locals" would be doing for work, if not for the "giant resorts"? I would think they value those jobs, because they are steady income in an uncertain economy.
Do you think the "locals" in Toronto who work in hotels are exploited as well?
Tom
ricktoronto said:
What do you think the "locals" would be doing for work, if not for the "giant resorts"? I would think they value those jobs, because they are steady income in an uncertain economy.
Do you think the "locals" in Toronto who work in hotels are exploited as well?
Tom
Mi dos peso's
Have you ever tried to argue with a know all s o b , that about the same has putting your head up a dead ***** ***
What is the point people, there are those who like AI's and those who do not.
Have you ever tried to argue with a know all s o b , that about the same has putting your head up a dead ***** ***
What is the point people, there are those who like AI's and those who do not.
Carina you make some good points. But CocoTours is a ground handler. They are not independants, pirates or tour operators in the current definitions here.
Maybe I can help out a little and explain the terms cause quite frankly I found them confusing at first....
Lets start with ground handlers. This would include CocoTours, Iberdom, Turissimo, Turinter, Hola etc etc.... As a ground handler they provide the local "ground support" to tour operators. They arrange to have clients picked up at the airport and delivered to the hotels. They provide the back office processing for excursions, accounting, office facilities and some other services.
Tour Operators are mostly foreign companies, like Air Transat, Thompson Vacations, Apple Vacations. They sell a "tour" in another company and bring the tourists here. They utilize the services (in most cases) of a ground handler here in the DR. they would also have other similar situations in Cuba, Mexico etc. Some Tour Operators attempt to be their own Ground Handler as well, usually with poor results.
Pirates: so called pirates are supposedly unlicensed sellers of excursions. They used to be small operators of jeep safaris etc. They had a reputation for being unscrupulous in doing business, didn't honour complaints etc.
Independents: this is where Martin Espinall would fall along with many other companies. They operate on a basis of being fully licensed companies that in most cases are fully insured. They operate within the laws of this country. Many times they offer similar or the same tours as the Tour oprators and many times at better prices.
Excursion Companies: actually operate the excursions. They may market their product directly (internet, salespeople) , via independents, via Ground Handlers. In order to get a Tour Operator to offer your excursion you must have the agreement of the Ground Handler. Excursion companies pay a commission no matter what channel they market through. The commissions will vary.
Now for a very long time the Ground Handlers have been in a position of control. They dictate to a certain extent how much commission they will be paid by the excursion company as they control access to the tour operators. Tour operators have representatives (Carina referred to them) who greet their clients and do the welcome briefings and try to sell excursions. They get first crack at the tourists most of the time. Many of them are not locals, they are here on short term contracts in most cases. Some of them do use scare tactics to sell excursions! They are misrepresenting the country when they do this. But, in their defense they are attempting to keep their jobs and make a living!
Coco tours is an intersting case. They are a ground handler who work with several tour operators. They, like some other ground handlers, have created some of their own excursions, like a city tour. Now what happened this past year is interesting: they hired some independent sales people to go out and sell excursions in the hotels. In the past, the tour operators have protected access to their clients. Tour operators believe that their clients belong to them and no one else should ever sell a tour to their clients. Other companies do not get access to these people, but they try to. NOw tourists are getting more a more savvy by researching ahead of time. So, Coco hired these reps to go sell to everyone. They were treading on other companies turf! Apparently there were all kinds of problems and there were some nasty altercations in the hotels! This last part is second hand info and I cant verify it's accuracy, just painting a picture.
The hotels are also getting into the game. Some of them have a desk where a customer service type person will offer tours to tourists. Some have created their own excursion companies as well. Many time the "animation" staff will sell excursions and make some commissions.
Next high season will be intersting. I am waiting to see what happens. I think the "gloves" are off and things will start to change.
The AI's do help the local economy to a certain extent. They do provide many many jobs and where possible utilize local products. However, the profits from these hotels rarely stay in this country. They go offshore. And some of these hotels are very abusive to their staff. They take advantage of them whenever they can. Other hotels are wonderful to their staff....So guys you are both correct in my opinion.
Rick, I understand eldorada. I too used the AI as a home base when I first started visiting here. Until I got a sense of things, I didn't feel comforatable as a single female travelling alone to be staying elsewhere! AND quite frankly the AI package can be more cost effective then buying airfare and simply paying for a room! If you do the math then the AI makes some sense. AND to each his own. What works for one does not work for all....
Maybe I can help out a little and explain the terms cause quite frankly I found them confusing at first....
Lets start with ground handlers. This would include CocoTours, Iberdom, Turissimo, Turinter, Hola etc etc.... As a ground handler they provide the local "ground support" to tour operators. They arrange to have clients picked up at the airport and delivered to the hotels. They provide the back office processing for excursions, accounting, office facilities and some other services.
Tour Operators are mostly foreign companies, like Air Transat, Thompson Vacations, Apple Vacations. They sell a "tour" in another company and bring the tourists here. They utilize the services (in most cases) of a ground handler here in the DR. they would also have other similar situations in Cuba, Mexico etc. Some Tour Operators attempt to be their own Ground Handler as well, usually with poor results.
Pirates: so called pirates are supposedly unlicensed sellers of excursions. They used to be small operators of jeep safaris etc. They had a reputation for being unscrupulous in doing business, didn't honour complaints etc.
Independents: this is where Martin Espinall would fall along with many other companies. They operate on a basis of being fully licensed companies that in most cases are fully insured. They operate within the laws of this country. Many times they offer similar or the same tours as the Tour oprators and many times at better prices.
Excursion Companies: actually operate the excursions. They may market their product directly (internet, salespeople) , via independents, via Ground Handlers. In order to get a Tour Operator to offer your excursion you must have the agreement of the Ground Handler. Excursion companies pay a commission no matter what channel they market through. The commissions will vary.
Now for a very long time the Ground Handlers have been in a position of control. They dictate to a certain extent how much commission they will be paid by the excursion company as they control access to the tour operators. Tour operators have representatives (Carina referred to them) who greet their clients and do the welcome briefings and try to sell excursions. They get first crack at the tourists most of the time. Many of them are not locals, they are here on short term contracts in most cases. Some of them do use scare tactics to sell excursions! They are misrepresenting the country when they do this. But, in their defense they are attempting to keep their jobs and make a living!
Coco tours is an intersting case. They are a ground handler who work with several tour operators. They, like some other ground handlers, have created some of their own excursions, like a city tour. Now what happened this past year is interesting: they hired some independent sales people to go out and sell excursions in the hotels. In the past, the tour operators have protected access to their clients. Tour operators believe that their clients belong to them and no one else should ever sell a tour to their clients. Other companies do not get access to these people, but they try to. NOw tourists are getting more a more savvy by researching ahead of time. So, Coco hired these reps to go sell to everyone. They were treading on other companies turf! Apparently there were all kinds of problems and there were some nasty altercations in the hotels! This last part is second hand info and I cant verify it's accuracy, just painting a picture.
The hotels are also getting into the game. Some of them have a desk where a customer service type person will offer tours to tourists. Some have created their own excursion companies as well. Many time the "animation" staff will sell excursions and make some commissions.
Next high season will be intersting. I am waiting to see what happens. I think the "gloves" are off and things will start to change.
The AI's do help the local economy to a certain extent. They do provide many many jobs and where possible utilize local products. However, the profits from these hotels rarely stay in this country. They go offshore. And some of these hotels are very abusive to their staff. They take advantage of them whenever they can. Other hotels are wonderful to their staff....So guys you are both correct in my opinion.
Rick, I understand eldorada. I too used the AI as a home base when I first started visiting here. Until I got a sense of things, I didn't feel comforatable as a single female travelling alone to be staying elsewhere! AND quite frankly the AI package can be more cost effective then buying airfare and simply paying for a room! If you do the math then the AI makes some sense. AND to each his own. What works for one does not work for all....
Thanks for this 'bird's-eye-view' description Planner. I found it quite fascinating.
The issue that strikes me, is that I was always of the opinion that the local excursion companies and independents are "good guys" and they make the money stay here. Seems to me after reading your description, is that a large part of the money goes elsewhere, if the tour is sold by an external tour operator. Then, the tour operator and the ground handlers all get a piece and the poor sod operating a good tour locally, simply receives a smaller piece of the pie. Is there a business opportunity here? Local Excursion Companies Unite?
Shall we start a Union? :nervous:
The issue that strikes me, is that I was always of the opinion that the local excursion companies and independents are "good guys" and they make the money stay here. Seems to me after reading your description, is that a large part of the money goes elsewhere, if the tour is sold by an external tour operator. Then, the tour operator and the ground handlers all get a piece and the poor sod operating a good tour locally, simply receives a smaller piece of the pie. Is there a business opportunity here? Local Excursion Companies Unite?
Shall we start a Union? :nervous:Hi Chris and thanks for the compliments.
Well is there an opportunity here? Most likely. I'll explain a little more from my perspective.
When an excursion company pays commission to a ground handler here is what happens.
First the commission can be anywhere from 20 % to65%. Most pay between 35 and 40 %. Some of this stays with the ground handler, some goes to the tour operator company and a small piece goes to the selling representative.
Now the ground handler will use the money to pay staff, overhead etc. Some of these companies are locally owned so much of the money stays here. Some of these commissions are used to offset the cost of airport transfer services! In order to be competitive the ground handlers have been undercharging for the transfer service.
The tour operator companies are almost all foreign owned and the profits go offshore. The reps are almost all foreigners and some spend a lot of money here and many send it back home, where ever that might be. For those who are locals they spend their money on their standard of living, they buy houses, they shop locally etc.
The local excursion companies get a chunk of the money and most keep the money here. But lets look at this. IF I run an excursion where I only keep say 50% of the money: I have to pay taxes, staff, office overhead, transportation / vehicles, boat maintenance, vehicle maintenance, insurance, license fees, phones, guides, entry fees, food, drinks etc etc etc... Now this wasn't so bad under a stable dollar/ peso. But, over the last two years excursion operators have taken a beating!
Excursion prices are based in US dollars. But, most ground handlers convert to pesos to pay the excursion companies. ANd many many times the rate is very unfavourable. So, excursion companies get beat up again. In one case, the client can pay in pesos at an exchange rate of say 33 to 1. But, the ground handler pays the excursion operator at 25 to 1. Hmmm hardly seems fair at the moment. I understood this when the pesos fluctuated a lot but it is fairly stable now....
IS there a need for an excursion association? Maybe. It might just be another level of mess! And remember excursion operators are in competition with each other for the same tourist dollars! And those dollars were pretty scarce this year compared to last year. So, I am not sure you could get them all together, working together.
On the north coast we have other excursion operators entering the market. From my perspective it is fascinating to watch!
Okay Chris, lets start that union. YOu be president and I will be Queen! Woooooo hooooo..
By the way, I really missed meeting you yesterday. I understand you had some issue with a grandaughter and missing car keys.....LOL we will meet soon.
Well is there an opportunity here? Most likely. I'll explain a little more from my perspective.
When an excursion company pays commission to a ground handler here is what happens.
First the commission can be anywhere from 20 % to65%. Most pay between 35 and 40 %. Some of this stays with the ground handler, some goes to the tour operator company and a small piece goes to the selling representative.
Now the ground handler will use the money to pay staff, overhead etc. Some of these companies are locally owned so much of the money stays here. Some of these commissions are used to offset the cost of airport transfer services! In order to be competitive the ground handlers have been undercharging for the transfer service.
The tour operator companies are almost all foreign owned and the profits go offshore. The reps are almost all foreigners and some spend a lot of money here and many send it back home, where ever that might be. For those who are locals they spend their money on their standard of living, they buy houses, they shop locally etc.
The local excursion companies get a chunk of the money and most keep the money here. But lets look at this. IF I run an excursion where I only keep say 50% of the money: I have to pay taxes, staff, office overhead, transportation / vehicles, boat maintenance, vehicle maintenance, insurance, license fees, phones, guides, entry fees, food, drinks etc etc etc... Now this wasn't so bad under a stable dollar/ peso. But, over the last two years excursion operators have taken a beating!
Excursion prices are based in US dollars. But, most ground handlers convert to pesos to pay the excursion companies. ANd many many times the rate is very unfavourable. So, excursion companies get beat up again. In one case, the client can pay in pesos at an exchange rate of say 33 to 1. But, the ground handler pays the excursion operator at 25 to 1. Hmmm hardly seems fair at the moment. I understood this when the pesos fluctuated a lot but it is fairly stable now....
IS there a need for an excursion association? Maybe. It might just be another level of mess! And remember excursion operators are in competition with each other for the same tourist dollars! And those dollars were pretty scarce this year compared to last year. So, I am not sure you could get them all together, working together.
On the north coast we have other excursion operators entering the market. From my perspective it is fascinating to watch!
Okay Chris, lets start that union. YOu be president and I will be Queen! Woooooo hooooo..
By the way, I really missed meeting you yesterday. I understand you had some issue with a grandaughter and missing car keys.....LOL we will meet soon.
planner said:
Hehehe.. about that Union.. we'll have to talk. Yes, my granddaughter put our car keys in a 'safe' place. After three hours of searching (we have only one set), someone thought of asking her - I mean, who asks a 4-year old for the car keys?. She said, sure, she knows where they are. In the pocket of her new pink shorts that were bought to wear for the party... By then it was about 5 and we decided to give it a miss... I do hope Amy bought you that Cuba Libre! That was the issue that I was most concerned about..
But now we're off track eh...