Beating up on Leonel.

[mondongo]

..
There is no way to know now where the DR will be at the end of Leonel's term....

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement and those of the O.P. Sitting idly by with a fatalistic attitude only feeds the status quo.

You have to be able to examine the early data and draw reasonable conclusions from them. That is what makes smart people smart. Just to wait around for the outcome and then do some monday-morning quarterbacking is ..frankly....useless and does not separate an educated person from else. You need to attempt to prevent accidents before they happen...not just muse around the wreckage after the bodies are strewn about.

Tha is what happened with Hippo.

 

[apostropheman]

I gather from reading these posts that we're caught between a rocky and a hard place, better yet, if Lucifer doesn't get us, Satan will.

it sounds to me to be more along the lines of "if you're not a part of the solution you're part of the problem" or perhaps a better cliche "one small step for man...."

if you do nothing then nothing will change. if all of you convince 2 people to remember how bad hippo was and that Leonel need time to change things...and they each convince 2 people and each of those people convince 2 people....that snowballs to a much larger group! just like the old shampoo commercial

individually it's not much but in the end it can have influence. it beats the hell out of doing nothing but complaining!

 

[Rocky]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement and those of the O.P. Sitting idly by with a fatalistic attitude only feeds the status quo.

You have to be able to examine the early data and draw reasonable conclusions from them. That is what makes smart people smart. Just to wait around for the outcome and then do some monday-morning quarterbacking is ..frankly....useless and does not separate an educated person from else. You need to attempt to prevent accidents before they happen...not just muse around the wreckage after the bodies are strewn about.

Tha is what happened with Hippo.

I'm confused about your statement.
I am the OP, and I'm the one who is advocating that we have to start doing something now.
That's what this entire thread is about.

 

[Rocky]

it sounds to me to be more along the lines of "if you're not a part of the solution you're part of the problem" or perhaps a better cliche "one small step for man...."

if you do nothing then nothing will change. if all of you convince 2 people to remember how bad hippo was and that Leonel need time to change things...and they each convince 2 people and each of those people convince 2 people....that snowballs to a much larger group! just like the old shampoo commercial

individually it's not much but in the end it can have influence. it beats the hell out of doing nothing but complaining!

That is exactly what I am talking about.
That's what I do and was hoping to get others to do, but now the whining has spread to this thread as well.
Have people forgotten that he passed a law, saying that it was a criminal offense, to speak badly of him or anybody in his government?
Have people forgotten that he actually imprisoned some people for just that, including a radio DJ?
Have people forgotten the 23 hour/day power failures?
Have people forgotten the 5 mansions he built that were collectively worth more than the electrical debt he left for Leonel?

 

[Andy B]

If any change is to occur, it has to come from the Dominican people themselves and not from us, a bunch of foreigners moaning about things on DR1. And for this to occur there will have to be a PROFOUND change in the attitude that "next time it will be my party's turn to rape the treasury and I'll get my jucy plum then." And although there are idealistic young Dominicans entering into government service with the intent to affect change from within, the way the system is set up, its too easy for them to succumb to temtation as they struggle to make ends meet, much less get ahead.

And regarding the differences between Hippo and Leonel, perhaps the best comparison is the unofficial take by the American embassy for the past two presidential elections: same game, different players.

 

[Rocky]

And regarding the differences between Hippo and Leonel, perhaps the best comparison is the unofficial take by the American embassy for the past two presidential elections: same game, different players.

Maybe that's their official take, but anyone who lives here knows better.
Leonel does not exhibit dictator-like tendencies, like Hippo does, and he is a businessman, who understands mathematics, plus & minus columns, as opposed to Hippo who understands how to grow yuca.
To compare the two is like comparing Margaret Thatcher & Adolf Hitler.

 

[Andy B]

I live here too (10 years for me, 20 years for my wife) and frankly we don't see a lot of difference between any of the parties and their leaders. They are all just as unethical and corrupt. Even my friends deep within the government confirm this.

And as a hotelier I can tell you that things are now much worse under Leonel (even taking into consideration the problems Hippo left him with). Leonel has been unnecessarily drastic in his cure and it's showing. And if he continues with his grandiose and ill-thought out schemes and proposed increases in taxation look for things to get worse, a LOT worse. Despite his level of intelligence, I don't think he cares what happens to the Dominican people as long as he gets his feathers preened.

 

[Escott]

Maybe that's their official take, but anyone who lives here knows better.
Leonel does not exhibit dictator-like tendencies, like Hippo does, and he is a businessman, who understands mathematics, plus & minus columns, as opposed to Hippo who understands how to grow yuca.
To compare the two is like comparing Margaret Thatcher & Adolf Hitler.

Hey easy on the YUCA COWBOY! Anymore Personal attacks won't be tolerated!

What matters is the bottom line here. Leonel isn't doing what is right. He is doing STUPID. Hippo is the business man, Leonel is the Communist so get that straight at least.

The only problem with YOUR Comparison is I can't figure out which is which.

Escott

 

[Escott]

I don't know.
In fact, I'm not very interested in politics and not very well informed.
I do know that we can't stand another Hippo-like president.
I do know I would like to live here for the rest of my life.
I do know that the DR has been taken off the loan default list, since Leonel came into power.
I do know that Hippo put us there.

Only thing you are not taking into account is that the DR has aquired MORE debt and a bigger government since Leonel took office. Do facts play any part in your thoughts?

 

[Rocky]

OK.
So we can cross AndyB and Escott off the list of those who wish to see that "other" party from ever getting in again.
I guess this thread has run it's course.
Everybody is entitled to their opinions, and although I am surprised to hear that there are several educated gringos who think Leonel sux, I hope that those who feel the way I do, will try to help us avoid another Hippo government, come next election.

 

[Escott]

In the long run, sucking up to Venezuela and curring favor in New York can do him and the DR alot of good. But for now, he should be doing a better job lifting the spirits of the country. That's just good politicing. When Rocky and Escott start showing signs of panic, things are getting out of hand. - D

I am not panicing. I just get pissed off at things that are more dumb than a box of rocks. When everyone called Hippo Dumb and Leonel Smart I listened. When Leonel does stupid thing I speak about them.

I will speak about Candelier again as a viable alternative. Perhaps he can clean up the country like Julianni cleaned up NY.

A little birdie told me he is in NY raising money for a Run at Leonel's job! I am not so sure I see any compelling reasons not to support him. He is a little scary but Leonel doing what he is doing is scaring the crap out of me also.

Escott

 

[Rocky]

Only thing you are not taking into account is that the DR has aquired MORE debt and a bigger government since Leonel took office. Do facts play any part in your thoughts?

How about just one.
Hippo hates gringos and wants to kick them all out?
Will that do?
Don't even think of denying that fact.
It was part of his electoral campaign, and the subject was mentioned various times throughout his reign in terror.

 

[suarezn]

Not defending anything Hippo did. Trust me I hate him as much as you do AND I did my part to get him out, by convincing most of my family who were going to vote for him (because they were loyal PRD supporters) to vote for Leonel instead. I even went as far as telling them that if they voted for Hippo to not ever ask me for money again or complain to me how bad things were, because they deserved it.

Anyhow, I don't think Hippo hates Gringo. Even though he said a lot of stupid things, I don't recall him ever saying that he hated them and a search in google does not turn anything up. On the contrary he studied in The US for a little while AND he IS A US CITIZEN. I remember when he said that he was in fact a US citizen as well as encouraged every Dominican to become one, then people started saying that he should not be president and somehow this was quickly shoved under the rug and nobody talked about this anymore.

Here's a link to one of those articles.

http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml?cid=72932

 

[Rocky]

Anyhow, I don't think Hippo hates Gringo. Even though he said a lot of stupid things, I don't recall him ever saying that he hated them and a search in google does not turn anything up. On the contrary he studied in The US for a little while AND he IS A US CITIZEN. I remember when he said that he was in fact a US citizen as well as encouraged every Dominican to become one, then people started saying that he should not be president and somehow this was quickly shoved under the rug and nobody talked about this anymore.

Here's a link to one of those articles.

http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml?cid=72932

He was being interviewed by a Miami reporter.
You must have heard of him being nicknamed Hipocrito.
Don't forget those 911 terrorists, who took their pilots lessons in the US.
What he said in the US and what he said here, were 2 different things.

 

[Andy B]

"So we can cross AndyB and Escott off the list of those who wish to see that "other" party from ever getting in again."

I'm not advocating one party over the other. They're all just as bad. It seems to be a choice of the lesser of the evils. However as we have seen what the PRD and the PLD have done to the country in the last 10 years, maybe it's time for the PRSC to come back. God forbid, but let's resurect Balaguer from the grave! At least he kept things in line.

 

[Chirimoya]

bring back the PRSC?

I know you are probably saying this tongue in cheek, Andy, but let's not forget that Balaguer is the one who wrote the book of rules for clientilism and corruption that his successors have been so good at following. He combined all that with a good measure of repression and lashings of paternalism, but probably would have not tolerated the extravagances of the diplomatic missions and presidential junkets so beloved by Hippo and Leonel.

In any case, his heirs at the PRSC do not inspire any confidence whatsover, they are like lost sheep bleating int the wilderness as they search for their shepherd.

Rocky, can we have some examples of Hippo's statements about throwing all the foreigners out of the DR? They seemed to have passed me by, which is strange considering the attention I devote to the Dominican media.

 

[Escott]

How about just one.
Hippo hates gringos and wants to kick them all out?
Will that do?
Don't even think of denying that fact.
It was part of his electoral campaign, and the subject was mentioned various times throughout his reign in terror.

That's funny, I never heard anything of the sort. I seem to remember being here at the same time he was in office also.

Would you care to reference your statement to something credible to substantiate it? It won't do just you saying so.

Funny during his reign of terror I was doing better with more pesos for my dollar, real estate rising for the first time in 10 years and cheaper prices. Like I said before the only people that are doing better now have NOT dropped their prices since the peso was at 53 to 1 although it is below 33 to 1. Maybe that is the difference between you and I when you get right to the heart of it.

 

[mondongo]

Rocky, for whatever reason, you are not thinking clearly on this one.

 

[Rocky]

OK,
I surrender.
Bring back Hippo.
I'm looking for a new paradise.

 

[Andy B]

Would I kid you?

Chiri, my tongue was definately in my cheek although according to my Canadian wife who lived through 10 years of Balaguer (86-96) things ran much more smoothly then; patronage, corruption, et al. I'm not advocating a return to his form of government just pointing out that the country was in much better shape than it is today after he straightened things out in the mid-eighties. The appearances of a better DR may be there for some, but under it all, the everyday people of the DR are suffering now more than ever. Maybe it IS time for a revolution, take 'em all out, shoot 'em and let the pieces fall where they may: it couldn't be any worse than the rapidly spiralling downward path the country is on that will only end up there anyway unless corrected.