Beware DR Residents *drivers*

[NALs]

I was only kidding when I said you needed intervention. Half kidding anyway. I have actually thought the best thing the DR could do would be to hire Rudolf Gulliani to be your supervisor. He would clean up the mess and get you on the right foot. Put all the bums in jail and teach you all that you shouldn't steal from each other.

Wasn't Gulliani hired by Mexico City authorities to help with the crime wave there? If so, he has done such a fabulous job there! Crime still continues to increase!

I don't think it is outside intervention that the DR needs just as I don't think that is what is causing the DR's ills. I just hate it when I see people like you and Porfio blaming the US for government malpractice, greed and corruption of and by Dominicans in the DR.

Its true, the DR ills are caused right here in the DR. However, those ills are the side effects of foreign powers telling us how to live and not showing us how to do it. Ever tried to telling a kid that drinking beer is bad while you yourself are drinking one. Do you think the kid is going to put attention to your words or your action?

Or have you ever told a kid to not look a toy in a room or not touch something. As soon that you leave the room, what will the kid do? The kid will look at it and touch it and continue to do so until you come back. If you don't come back, then the kid will continue do what he was told not to do.

The samething applies if its so true that the DR can't govern itself. The "self governable" foreign powers tell us that we are doing it wrong and then they failed in leading us into the right trajectory of development.

I hope the gunboats return if the DR tries to do a taking of private property. That is not acceptible behavour anywhere in the world.

Not a taking of private property, but a deterrent to any foreign company in particular that want to capitalize from our resources. Let us develop at our own pace. This quick easy riches is the rhetoric that has fueled this globalization trend. Rich countries tell poor ones that by allowing rich countries companies to go into poor countries that poor countries will become rich without working for it.

Here is a secret, work equals money, no work equals no money. End of story. Globalization is good for the west, but not the rest of the world. Otherwise, the IMF and other global entities would not have agreed painfully to the fact that the timeperiod between today and 1970 (when Globalization was being geared up) was the time of much unnecessary backwardness in many developing countries with GDP either falling since then or soaring at first and then collapsing.

I apologize for any other comments.

There is no need for apology. We are just expressing our points of view, not trying to dictate over anyone. Or are we? Hmm...

 

[NALs]

If this was actually a debatable subject I would have to say Scott has soundly argued the more correct view.

IMO, The DR is not even background noise either financially or democratically to the reset of the world.

If you are trying to say that the way developed countries help, is more of a hindrance to the DR, I would have to respectfully disagree.

Even the kind of ?Boss Hog? attitude of the last government perpetrated on the majority of the people, IMO, was saved by ?giving? the guy money and letting him hang himself.

Now what was typical, at least to me, is the ending of one of your paragraphs.



This is Scott?s point of ?Take responsibility for you own actions??. No one country is to ?finish? the DR responsibility but the DR, period. External sources ?try? and give guidance as well as money in hopes they can empower DR sources to ?finish?.

Interesting how you finished your comment.

I wonder why Europe and Japan was taken by America's hand and completely lead into full development. Today, they are as rich as America if not even more. They have never done that to any other country anywhere else. The Brits did it to Hong Kong and look how they turned out!

People need to finish what they start. If you invade a country to set it in the "right direction", then stick to your goals until they have been accomplished. Of course, if your goals were some other secret motive, then that might explain the leaving the trainee halfway through the training session.

BTW, I do understand what you and Scott are trying to say. I am just saying that in the past, America lead countries into prosperity. America did not let those places figure it out on their own.

 

[KateP]

Ok... back to the original point I wanted to make... Drivers, watch your backs, your cars and you behinds, and parents, please be careful with your kids' whereabouts. There are a lot of lobos out there... be they US deportees, DR criminals, or whatevers.

 

[Criss Colon]

"Nalowhs",Living Proof That A Little Knowledge IS Dangerous!!!

Do you actually live here in the DR,or do you,like most of the Dominicans who post on DR1,do it from "AFAR"????
Your info is incomplete,outdated,influenced by the Dominican "Urban Ledgend" that nothing,absolutely "NOTHING" bad that happens here is "YOUR" fault,or responsibility!!
"McDonalds" on 27 Feb.has been closed for about a year! Just like "Little Ceasars","Wendy's","Churche's Fried Chicken",and some "KFCs"!Who can we blame noe for the dowwnfall of the DR?
I think that "Art",reflects "Life",and not visa-vesa!
Blaming the "Media" is not a stricktly Dominican phenomina,but it does mesh perfectly with their,"It's Not My Fault" outlook on living!!!

Just as "Feminists" blame "Porno" for violence against women,when we men know that we watch a "T&A" video,"Wank IT",and fall asleep! Not go out looking for trouble!"Violent" men rape,the rest of us watch "PORNO",or move to the DR!
Time for lunch! CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

 

[suarezn]

Before they were deported, did you know that they were into crime? Also, if you knew, why did you not reported them to the local authorities?

You just proved my point that you know nothing about these people and you're doing is regurgitating what you read on the papers. In my hometown alone I know at least 20 people who have been deported. I would say about 5 of them were deported for being in The US illegally. The rest were deported after being caught selling drugs. NONE of them were deported for violent crimes and NONE of them sells drugs in The DR. This is something they do here in The US, but never in The DR. FYI, in the Dominican mind it is OK to come and sell drugs here in The US, but IT"S NOT OK to sell them back home in our towns. Most drug peddlers that we have in The DR have never traveled anywhere and never been deported.

That is something expect of a person that wrote the following paragragh which I quoted below.
Also, if they were deported for fake visas, etc. that is a different type of deportee and not the one we are referring to. We are talking about the human hunters! I don't think its just pure coincidence that crime has increased ever since there have been mass deportation of the least wanted people on the planet - the criminals in general. I also don't think that it was pure coincidence that dismantled bodies are appearing floating in the Ozama river, that kidnappers are now killing their subjects even after the ransom has been paid, that more sophisticated modes of crime are being seen in this country. Even the police have recognized that the type of crime seen today in SDQ is not relevant to how crime was done. Its much more sophisticated and identical to crime patterns that have plagued NYC, Miami and other foreign cities where Dominicans have migrated and settled and intermingled with the urban low class.

You lost me there. That's not my quote. I think you're trying to respond to so many people that you're getting tangled up in your own underwear...

Interesting that you blame the Spaniards for those faults. The last time I checked, Spaniards are advancing quite well economically and culturally while Africa falls ever backwards and more into corruption, dishonesty, and lazyness. Hmm, it appears that we have inherited our faults from Africa more so than Europe. The global evidence is there.

OK so we got it from both sides of the spectrum (Spaniards and Africans). I'm not blaming either culture for our problems, BTW. Just saying that we've always been that way (dishonest, lazy, etc), beggining with the spaniards tha colonized this island. The Spaniards are doing OK, only because they are located in Europe and are now part of the European community, but along with Italy and Greece they have the lowest income per capita of any origial member of the EU. That should tell you something.

Interesting that you take the few Dominican drug dealers to paint the entire people as such. The sad part is that you are a Dominican I suppose! You should know better than to see your people from a tiny negative group!

We're generalizing here, aren't we? That's why I didn't exclude myself, even though I'm hardly your typical Dominican. Obviously not all of us Dominicans are lazy, dishonest, etc...but a hell lot of us are and that's the root of our problem. Step one in solving a problem is recognizing you have a problem.

Explain that quote, because I don't get what you are saying there.

The quote about being glad we're not Puerto Rico, Brazil, Mexico, etc...was about the level of crime that exists in those countries Vs. The DR. I've spent time in those countries and there's no comparison. In Mexico, for instance people are afraid to buy a decent looking car even if they can afford it, because of the fear that they will be kidnapped, carjacked, etc...Almost everyone that can afford it has two or three bodyguards with them, etc...There's a palpable fear in the air.
Do you have any idea what the crime level is in a Favela in Brazil?
The level of crime in The DR is nowhere near any of these othere countries. Yes, from time to time we see a crime that gets a lot of publicity (i.e. the seven guys executed in Navarrete, yesterday) and everyone feels like crime is getting out of control, but if you ask me it's almost a miracle that in a country with such poverty levels we don't have gangs of little kids roaming the streets and assaulting anyone they feel like.
With all our problems The DR is still a pretty safe country if you use common sense. I go back home every time I get a chance. I don't carry a weapon and go anywhere alone at any time of the day and night. I've never felt in danger anywhere I've been in The DR.

 

[Escott]

Interesting that you take the few Dominican drug dealers to paint the entire people as such. The sad part is that you are a Dominican I suppose! You should know better than to see your people from a tiny negative group!

Also, it's interesting that you have notice the decline of integrity since Trujillo was deposed. Ask yourself one question, who got rid of Trujillo and lefted us to figure out "how to live" on our own? Who came into our land and told us that we don't know how to do things, but never suggested in ways of fixing it?

oops, there I go again blaming others for the DR problems, or maybe its just that everything leads to those others? Go back in time in the DR and notice how acute shifts in Dominican ideology and composition are always due to foreign intervention, whether they were Haitian invasions, American invasions, French invasions, etc. Those intervention always take us out of our development trajectory into complete anarchy.

I fail to see what any invasion did that would cause Dominicans to throw trash out the windows of moving cars with complete disregard (You won't see that in the US), people leaving their garbage on the beach and when someone says "Thats not right" they say "Its our country and we will do what we want", Greed and coruption (of course we have it in the US but they are PROCECUTED and NEVER in the DR), always blame others for all the faults of the DR (we never do this, we dig down deep and extinguish the problem), expect the government to give us a better life (well I guess the democrats do that! LOL).

Getting back to Guilianni, if you gave him absolute power and were willing to live with the effects of cleaning up your government fraud, he could do a fine job. You have no idea what was going on in Mexico City. You have no idea that they gave him NO powers to do anything and just paid him to give ideas which they didn't follow. You can't imagine the job he did in NY! NYC is harder to straighten out than the DR is imho.

Scott

 

[NALs]

I fail to see what any invasion did that would cause Dominicans to throw trash out the windows of moving cars with complete disregard (You won't see that in the US),

That is the result of "unchecked" human nature I guess. Today you don't see many Americans littering (though the poor of the inner cities couldn't do a much better job of filling the urban streets with filth in the US). That is simple lack of enforcement.

people leaving their garbage on the beach and when someone says "Thats not right" they say "Its our country and we will do what we want",

Well, if most people respond in that manner, saying that its their land, etc. than that is a response to finally feeling free from foreign domination and wanting to remain free of foreign domination. If foreign powers were not as influencial as proposed on this thread by many folks, I would bet that most Dominicans would put more attention to what foreigners tell them. But since, foreigners have been telling us to do this or that for hundreds of years (different foreign powers of course, but all foreign), then we feel that we should learn through our own mistakes.

You can tell a kid about all of your mistakes so the kid can be ahead of you when he becomes old, but that kid will only truly learn through his own experiences.

always blame others for all the faults of the DR (we never do this, we dig down deep and extinguish the problem),

Others have had a deep influence here and any influence has helped in shaping Dominicans into becoming what they have become! Its like a child, every day a child experiences something new or redundant. Everyday has a deep impact on how that child will turn out to be once it becomes an adult. If the child grew up in a quasi-dictatorial home, that child will "revolt" or reject anyone telling him/her how to live once into adulthood. Any psychological problems the child might have is due to his turbulent childhood, not his own nature because his nature has been influenced by the authoritative parental figure. Now, apply that to the DR and you'll see exactly what I am saying.

Also, I don't want to get into the 9/11 ordeal because I feel that I will be disrespecting those who died innocently on that morning, but I am going to have to say this. Some people say that Osama Binladen is responsible for the attacks. In the short run, I know he is, afterall he confessed to it!

However, I just wonder if the support the US gives to Israel had something to do with it. The "democratization" the US dreams for the islamic and arab nations had something to do with it. The constant justification of Isrealis killing Palestinians but the condemnation of Palestinians killing Isrealis had something to do with it. I wonder if the American made bombs and jets used by the Isreali army agains the sticks and shovels and home made bombs used by the palestinians had something to do with that.

Again, I don't want to get into that issue because its still too sensitive, but Terrorists are human like you and me. And humans are not born to hate, they acquire hatred by inequalities in treatment, income, or preferrences that they might see against "their people". Since Israel exist today solely because of the support of the US (with out America, Israel is finished) and Israel is the only non-arab country in that region being imposed in a region that in recent history belong to Palestinians... Its not hard to see why some people say that the fault lied in America the entire time.

Again, I'm not saying whether America is at fault or not. I'm still analyzing both sides of the stories because both sides still makes sense to me. But, the possibility of blaming others and anything else considered as "anti-American" seems to me to contradict your response that Americans never blame others. Maybe, most of the time you guys take responsibility, but I'm not sure about never.

Getting back to Guilianni, if you gave him absolute power and were willing to live with the effects of cleaning up your government fraud, he could do a fine job.

If you give anybody absolute power, another Trujillo will emerge. Oh sure, under absolute power Giuliani would do a fabulous job. I mean, Trujillo did paid the national debt, developed hundreds of Dominican industries, upgraded the infrastructure, gave the country a monetary unit that remained at par with US Dollar until he died, and gave many Dominicans mobility (exception would be black Dominicans, but whites and mulattos were able to move between classes and economic positions under Trujillo). The only side effect from Trujillo is the same side effect from any absolute power. They think they are Gods and treat their subjects as they wish when they feel like it.

 

[Chirimoya]

A little knowledge, is, indeed, a dangerous thing.

 

[Barnabe]

In my hometown alone I know at least 20 people who have been deported. I would say about 5 of them were deported for being in The US illegally. The rest were deported after being caught selling drugs. NONE of them were deported for violent crimes and NONE of them sells drugs in The DR. This is something they do here in The US, but never in The DR. FYI, in the Dominican mind it is OK to come and sell drugs here in The US, but IT"S NOT OK to sell them back home in our towns. Most drug peddlers that we have in The DR have never traveled anywhere and never been deported.

You point out that many of these deportees were jailed for selling drugs, and that they don't sell drugs in the DR. Don't you think that at least a few of them are living illegally, probably from some kind of theft? I don't think this is a gentleman's world.. I guess not all of them came with load of dollars.

Don't you also think that, having been in the business in the States, they might be accustomed to a high degree of violence? I don't think this is a gentleman's world.. I guess not all of them came with load of dollars.

It is hard imho to believe that the deportees don't have some responsibility in this violence that have spread over in the last 5 years.

Now raping is a different story.

Barnab?

 

[NALs]

It is hard imho to believe that the deportees don't have some responsibility in this violence that have spread over in the last 5 years.

That is my exact point!

I always wondered if Drug Dealers tell their family members absolutely everything they do?

I'm a person who follow the laws of the country (except for bribing cops who stop me for no reason other than a bribe) and I don't tell my circles of friends and family absolutely everything I do, so why would anyone doing such illicit and (I would think) shameful acts such as selling drugs would tell anyone about their business, except for potential customers?

Saying that these people who she knows were deported for doing drugs and now are not in that Business because they are now in the DR is not making much sense to me.

These people are on my country, which saddly is a heaven for Colombian catels capitalizing on our central location for their illicit trade. I won't be surprised if some of those deportees that she mention are in fact still in the drug trade.

 

[bcmike]

you've got to be kidding... or stupid

Quote From NalOwhs

"Again, I don't want to get into that issue because its still too sensitive, but Terrorists are human like you and me".

HUMAN LIKE YOU AND ME?!!!!

Leave ME out of that one,idiot.

 

[NALs]

Quote From NalOwhs

"Again, I don't want to get into that issue because its still too sensitive, but Terrorists are human like you and me".

HUMAN LIKE YOU AND ME?!!!!

Leave ME out of that one,idiot.

That post was in response to a discussion between myself and Escott for the most part. YOU BCMIKE was never in it!

If you want to insult me, then do it straight forward, you know, writing that I am an idiot would have been just fine. Adding yourself into a discussion that you were never a part off is plain old idiotic and only idiots do such thing!

 

[suarezn]

That is my exact point!

Saying that these people who she knows were deported for doing drugs and now are not in that Business because they are now in the DR is not making much sense to me.

These people are on my country, which saddly is a heaven for Colombian catels capitalizing on our central location for their illicit trade. I won't be surprised if some of those deportees that she mention are in fact still in the drug trade.

BTW is HE not SHE...
It doesn't make sense to you, because as I said before you do not understand the Dominican way of thinking. Now are there a few still involved in the drug trade while in The DR? Probably, but I would say they are very few indeed. I'm speaking from experience, not from seconhand knowledge.

Barnabe: I truly don't believe that deportees have made that big of an impact in the rise of crime in The DR...I will tell what IMO has done a lot to increase crime:
-Availability of legal or illegal weapons. That IMO has been the biggest reason why there are a lot more murders and shootouts nowdays. 15 or 20 years ago very few people had a weapon, nowdays everybody and their brother has one. Those who can't afford the real thing buy homemade ones (chilenas). Any small argument can turn into a shooting.

 

[Barnabe]

B

Barnabe: I truly don't believe that deportees have made that big of an impact in the rise of crime in The DR...I will tell what IMO has done a lot to increase crime:
-Availability of legal or illegal weapons. That IMO has been the biggest reason why there are a lot more murders and shootouts nowdays. 15 or 20 years ago very few people had a weapon, nowdays everybody and their brother has one. Those who can't afford the real thing buy homemade ones (chilenas). Any small argument can turn into a shooting.

Nobody has clear evidence of the responsibility of deportees, but everybody (and I mean not only foreigners like me) that there is a coincidence..

I agree with you that if nobody had firearms, at least there would be less "hard" violence. In fact one should make a difference between the "argument" violence, which you refer too, and the delincuencia, which is what has been increasing in the past years.

When I am in my barrio in SD, I have a feeling of safety regarding thieves, because the tigueres operate out of the barrio. Now I have seen more than one argument turn into street fightings, with bullets flying around, just because of a few words or an abuse of Brugal. Dominican are hard boiled people, they take things easy but they can really turn mad when they get angry (and drunk).

This has always been I guess and probably will remain the same. The difference is in pure delincuencia. Not more than 5 years ago a woman could walk in the street with gold chain and earrings and her handbag loosely hanging on her shoulder. That was a big difference with the south american countries you were reffering to in a previous post. What about now? SD is not yet a brazilian favela, OK, but it is now an unsafe place to live in.

Barnab?

 

[NALs]

BTW is HE not SHE...

Pardon me for the wrong address towards you. Thank you for pointing that out.

It doesn't make sense to you, because as I said before you do not understand the Dominican way of thinking.

I Do not understand the Dominican way of thinking! That is really something new when it is being said to a blood and soul DOMINICAN!

Where do you think I was born, raised, and still live? I'm Dominican all the way, so don't tell me that I don't understand myself and my culture!

I may not see why you are not seeing the coincidence of increase of crime and the increase of deportees, but just because I don't understand under what basis you make your assumptions doesn't mean I don't understand my very own culture and country.

Now are there a few still involved in the drug trade while in The DR? Probably, but I would say they are very few indeed. I'm speaking from experience, not from seconhand knowledge.

Keep in mind, every week there are hundreds if not thousands of Dominicans that are deported, many for serious violations such as murder, kidnappings, sexual violations, robbery, and selling drugs.

That means that "your encounter" with the Deportees and what those who you know do in the DR is not indicative of the overall pattern of action among all Deportees deported for severe disobedience.

In other words, your "sample" is too small to really be applied to the entire stock of deportees in the DR - which continues to grow everyday.

There is a coincidence that brings a lot of suspicion to whether the deportees are the root problem not for crime in it self, but for the recent surge. This phenomenon is not only happening in the DR, even in smaller countries like Barbados, Grenada, and St. Lucia there have been a surge in crime and there it has been proven that it was due to the deportees who commited severe disobedience prior to being deported.

If in those smaller island the crime rate doubled or quadrupled once the way of deportees started, then it also makes sense to create the same suspicion here in the DR. Ever since deportees have been coming en masse, the country has seen a surge in crime activities and the crimes themselves are more sophisticated and more brutal than before.

In the past, the police could have been involved with some crime and a few black sheeps, but right now things are simply getting out of control. Dominican newspapers traditionally focused more on politics and the economy, everyday that passes crime incidents are taking an ever growing section of the papers as well.

This is the best I can explain it, so lets leave it at that.

Also, I'm not saying that Dominicans born on the island that never left don't have any criminals in them, there are some. I just don't think that their numbers compare to the level of crime that has been seen in recent years. Add to that the increase of Haitians (who are in extreme poverty even by DR standards and are constantly harrassed in the DR, making them a bit hostile I would say) and the increase of deportees, it only makes sense to assume that these two influences are exacerbating the crime levels in the DR.

The reason why I point to Deportees for crime surge is because the crime increases correlate to the deportees population increase and the crimes being seen in the country now are much more similar to crimes found in NYC in their sophistication.

I also point to the Haitian migration because there were some statistics a few years ago that showed that 90% of stolen vehicles in the DR ended up in Haiti and there have been a rash of residence break-ins with haitian criminals being the culprit, the worst case was the killing of two adults in the Los Pinos (I think) neighborhood of SDQ. There were two adults and a 6 year old child. The Haitians had done some work on the house a few days before, then they went to the house killed the adults , stole somethings and left the 6 year old alive. Later in the day, the aunt of the six year old called the house and the six year old told her that his parents were sleeping on the ground on a puddle of blood.

It's important to note that I am not saying that all Haitians or Deportees are criminals, just that the criminals imbedded in those respective population are having a negative impact on our society as we speak. Those are my two cents in this.