Charlie Rose - Update on Haiti

[PICHARDO]

Love it - 100% of Dominicans can travel blah....
No they cannot!
You are one of the lucky ones - you have a visa.
MOST Dominicans would love a visa and the cash to get off the island.
Your history is flawed.

You make me laugh though, so do carry on getting angry at the mean Gringos.

I love to read it.

Pedro, Dominicans have forever been able to travel to other countries then the USA, PR or more recently Spain. That's without a Visa or permit of any kind to quite a few nations.

The reason why so many NEED to go to the USA/PR/SPAIN has more to do with historical links then ease to travel. The first step into the USA for Dominicans is NYC, then NJ, followed by Boston, Miami and so on...

The same happens in Puerto Rico and Spain. As the earlier arrivals penetrated the work force and communities there, they assisted and prompted others to follow on their footsteps.

You must understand that a good chunk of those earlier arrivals, were made mostly of the campesinos and low middle class in good parts. The US had two (yes 2) consulates open in the DR back then; they gave away immigrant visas like hot dogs on July 4th on Coney Island.

They wanted workers for the garment industry and companies there, without having to accept anymore Chinese or Mexicans. They wanted to have people that will go to the USA and then return home, without trying to plant roots in the country.

They were called immigrant work visas, mainly like I said before, garment/industry workers as well as agriculture and remote location crews.

They were very selective on the age and distribution of those given the work visas in the DR, mostly young males and females, single with no kids.
Student visas were also provided to communist leaning, university bound young people. They did that a lot!

As it stands, those that went first found themselves very isolated by the other largest hispanic group. Puerto Ricans comprised the largest hispanic minority in the US above the southern states and well into the east coast.

Dominicans tried everything they could to feel at home, but failed to. As the saying goes "misery loves company", they promised family and friends streets paved with gold and all the marvels and whistles one could find in a single spot. They did their best to convince others to follow them there, and they were very successful in that enterprise.

Why overwhelmingly the USA and not Japan for instance? That's because the support community is not there yet!

Dominicans that have traveled to Japan and Israel, have found that they are not only wanted by needed by those developed nations in big numbers. still those that take the challenge today, are the ones paying the highest price of isolation from their culture and people.

This is something that has to do more with lack of support networks, ones that need to be established in those other non-visa required nations, than anything else.

Poor Dominicans will continue to emigrate as best they can, but they are not fools to just go anywhere they are allowed to go and risk isolation as well.

I hope that helps you grasp the notion behind my posts on that matter!

 

[bienamor]

Pedro, Dominicans have forever been able to travel to other countries then the USA, PR or more recently Spain. That's without a Visa or permit of any kind to quite a few nations.

The reason why so many NEED to go to the USA/PR/SPAIN has more to do with historical links then ease to travel. The first step into the USA for Dominicans is NYC, then NJ, followed by Boston, Miami and so on...

The same happens in Puerto Rico and Spain. As the earlier arrivals penetrated the work force and communities there, they assisted and prompted others to follow on their footsteps.

You must understand that a good chunk of those earlier arrivals, were made mostly of the campesinos and low middle class in good parts. The US had two (yes 2) consulates open in the DR back then; they gave away immigrant visas like hot dogs on July 4th on Coney Island.

They wanted workers for the garment industry and companies there, without having to accept anymore Chinese or Mexicans. They wanted to have people that will go to the USA and then return home, without trying to plant roots in the country.

They were called immigrant work visas, mainly like I said before, garment/industry workers as well as agriculture and remote location crews.

They were very selective on the age and distribution of those given the work visas in the DR, mostly young males and females, single with no kids.
Student visas were also provided to communist leaning, university bound young people. They did that a lot!

As it stands, those that went first found themselves very isolated by the other largest hispanic group. Puerto Ricans comprised the largest hispanic minority in the US above the southern states and well into the east coast.

Dominicans tried everything they could to feel at home, but failed to. As the saying goes "misery loves company", they promised family and friends streets paved with gold and all the marvels and whistles one could find in a single spot. They did their best to convince others to follow them there, and they were very successful in that enterprise.

Why overwhelmingly the USA and not Japan for instance? That's because the support community is not there yet!

Dominicans that have traveled to Japan and Israel, have found that they are not only wanted by needed by those developed nations in big numbers. still those that take the challenge today, are the ones paying the highest price of isolation from their culture and people.

This is something that has to do more with lack of support networks, ones that need to be established in those other non-visa required nations, than anything else.

Poor Dominicans will continue to emigrate as best they can, but they are not fools to just go anywhere they are allowed to go and risk isolation as well.

I hope that helps you grasp the notion behind my posts on that matter!

An do they realize that they will never be accepted as equals in the far east. they are just as much an outsider as anyone else especially in Japan and Korea and always will be.

 

[PICHARDO]

True, but eventually we all now that Dominicans are like weed! They'll grow and get stuck to the country like it or not!

Japan is Japan; I must say that I respect them (for lack of better words to put it) for their will to stay the country for their kind.
I truly believed that Haiti and the DR should have been under a federal union of sorts, but I think that would be impossible under the umbrella that it's found there now.

More than priming Haiti for the eventuality, I think they're priming the DR and Dominicans for the inevitable...

First they'll use race as the kingpin to inclusiveness, then "drive" the unity and conformity or the "brotherhood" home.

My God! We're entering the worst time of the year for storms and people are still in tents all over the capital!!!!! There's the food self-sufficiency thingy and the lack of healthcare of any discernable amount, to make matters even worst.

All I can say is that I see a huge man-made disaster in the making, part2 if you need to put a label on it.

Why not move the children elsewhere? meanwhile the adults are relocated to some other places?

Each time I look at it all, it becomes the more obvious and in-your face than I could ever dare to think-up.
It feels more and more, like this is a wait and let it happen thing...

 

[pedrochemical]

Can't fault most of what you say Pichardo.

I think the Dominicans are too smart and the Haitians too stubborn for any kind of administrative unity across the island.
But I would argue that getting a visa for Europe or the States is not a formality for the vast majority of Dominicans these days.

 

[PICHARDO]

Can't fault most of what you say Pichardo.

I think the Dominicans are too smart and the Haitians too stubborn for any kind of administrative unity across the island.
But I would argue that getting a visa for Europe or the States is not a formality for the vast majority of Dominicans these days.

Never said it was to those places, but plenty of other first world and some even more developed nations!

 

[bienamor]

Never said it was to those places, but plenty of other first world and some even more developed nations!

Then there is the small matter of cost. $$$$$ which most Dominicans don't have. Some of the Countries do require Visa's that are not hard to get but take time and can be expensive. And cannot transit through the USA. Which gets rid of half of the following destinations.

http://www.dr1.com/forums/visas/98513-countries-dominicans-may-enter-visa-free-more-info.html

Flight Tickets=Round Trip!
Accommodations
Pocket Money
All of the above can be required at entry to the afore mentioned countries.

Then there are Cruises, which are almost impossible for Dominicans, because most of them are stopping at some destination that WILL requre a visa.

 

[PICHARDO]

Many pay thousands of US$ for illegal boat trips, phantom flights in small planes to close by islands, machetes (fake papers) and other kind of ways to gain entry into the USA/PR/SPAIN...

The issue of money is not a problem for them, but 100% destination!

Dominicans that want to go overseas, do so with the intent of reaching the USA (NYC), PR or Spain... They need contacts already there 99% of the time.

The problem for those making the trip with the aim of overstaying the visa is that where they want to go, there's plenty of controls to stop them in the point of origin!

Most recently both Israel and Japan have been encouraging people in the DR, to go to their nations. They're both even offering student/work types of visas to Dominican public school students with little takers...

The mentality of Dominicans is different to that of Haitians, more so when it deals with departing their soil and aiming for another country. A Haitian will go anywhere he can and leave the misery behind. A Dominican, even with his misery, will not do the same thing.

For a Haitian is a matter of survival, for a Dominican a matter of making lots of foreign currency and coming back to the DR to live off it. Sadly Dominicans have been influenced too much historically by those that made the trip first, which then came back later with their amassed wealth to mess up their minds.

To put it on an even more tangible way, young Dominicans from the poorest sectors vying for a baseball contract with the MLB are shunning away contracts with Japanese scouts and their massive clubs in Japan. This is all due to the wow factor brought about from the myriad of high bonuses paid, which are made to young prospects in the DR by MLB.

Japan is light-years ahead on development and technology over the USA or tiny PR; but Dominicans (those from the mentioned sectors) want their sure to be promised land, as proven by the high numbers of Dominicans vacationing from those foreign lands in the DR each year.

That's why almost the entire middle class in the DR owns multiple entry visas to the USA, Canada and other hard to reach nations by these same sectors of the country.

At a recent press meeting done by the US consulate in the DR, they provided that the DR is the highest recipient of multiple entry visas to the US in the region. Not only that, but also that the incidence of visa violators in that bracket was less than 2% (they were some 1.7 or 1.6% If I can properly recall) for each number of new visas issued.

They even went to lengths to explain that most were these violations took place, were in cases of people with family already there (USA) or soon to be married couples (not surprisingly the two most hard to overcome things, when applying for a visitor visa to the USA in the DR).

Now when you compare that to Haiti, things are very different to put it mildly...

 

[bienamor]

Most recently both Israel and Japan have been encouraging people in the DR, to go to their nations. They're both even offering student/work types of visas to Dominican public school students with little takers...

That's why almost the entire middle class in the DR owns multiple entry visas to the USA, Canada and other hard to reach nations by these same sectors of the country.

At a recent press meeting done by the US consulate in the DR, they provided that the DR is the highest recipient of multiple entry visas to the US in the region. Not only that, but also that the incidence of visa violators in that bracket was less than 2% (they were some 1.7 or 1.6% If I can properly recall) for each number of new visas issued.

They even went to lengths to explain that most were these violations took place, were in cases of people with family already there (USA) or soon to be married couples (not surprisingly the two most hard to overcome things, when applying for a visitor visa to the USA in the DR).

Most recently both Israel and Japan have been encouraging people in the DR, to go to their nations. They're both even offering student/work types of visas to Dominican public school students with little takers...

No Idea but you don't hear anything at the University's.

That's why almost the entire middle class in the DR owns multiple entry visas to the USA, Canada and other hard to reach nations by these same sectors of the country.

you have stats on this, whats your definition of middle class? I worked too hard getting visas for employees we were sending to the US for training to believe this. this was with a Large US company doing the sponsoring. If they were single, under 30, living at home, it took multiple requests, and lots of teeth grinding. I would have classed most of the employees as middle class, maybe not upper middle class but middle class.

Very few of the vistors visa's overstay, because of the vetting process, it's damn near impossible to get them. It was a 131 dollar donation to the consulate. or at least it was now I believe its in the area of 300

 

[cobraboy]

Bienamor, the wife of one of my business partners just got a 3-month student visa to a University in Japan, paid by the Japanese.

 

[pedrochemical]

Most recently both Israel and Japan have been encouraging people in the DR, to go to their nations. They're both even offering student/work types of visas to Dominican public school students with little takers...

No Idea but you don't hear anything at the University's.

That's why almost the entire middle class in the DR owns multiple entry visas to the USA, Canada and other hard to reach nations by these same sectors of the country.

you have stats on this, whats your definition of middle class? I worked too hard getting visas for employees we were sending to the US for training to believe this. this was with a Large US company doing the sponsoring. If they were single, under 30, living at home, it took multiple requests, and lots of teeth grinding. I would have classed most of the employees as middle class, maybe not upper middle class but middle class.

Very few of the vistors visa's overstay, because of the vetting process, it's damn near impossible to get them. It was a 131 dollar donation to the consulate. or at least it was now I believe its in the area of 300

All the upper middle and upper class Haitians I know have multiple entry visas for the US too.
I suppose that the difference is that there are at least a million well off in D.R. and only a couple of hundred thousand at the most in Haiti - Again, because Haiti is that much more buggered up than the D.R.


And if you have a multiple entry visa than you can leave the US and get back in easily enough so there is no need to overstay. With a single entry visa - that could be your last chance to get off the island - it makes more sense to overstay.

 

[PICHARDO]

No Idea but you don't hear anything at the University's.

Yes! There's about a half dozen programs from both nations already working in the DR to that end. They're interested mostly in young people with a career in mind, while working/studying there.
You can pay a visit to the consulates of both nations in the DR, where they can provide some orientation on the programs. There's a program from Israel that goes beyond just work and looks to establish even religious links!

you have stats on this, whats your definition of middle class? I worked too hard getting visas for employees we were sending to the US for training to believe this. this was with a Large US company doing the sponsoring. If they were single, under 30, living at home, it took multiple requests, and lots of teeth grinding. I would have classed most of the employees as middle class, maybe not upper middle class but middle class.

That's where you're mistaken on YOUR formula for measuring what middle class (both reg or high) means in the DR. High middle class in Villa Olga, Cerros de Gurabo in Santiago. Arroyo Hondo, Esperilla, El Millon in SD.

Regular middle class is even easier to identify!!!

What you were dealing with was the low middle class (now between a hard place and a rock) or more like the "in the brink" of poverty class...

Low middle class in Santiago would be the barrio people, like Pepines, Pueblo Nuevo, etc... In SD Villa Mella, etc...

The rest is plain and simple on or below the poverty line for the DR income ratio.

Very few of the vistors visa's overstay, because of the vetting process, it's damn near impossible to get them. It was a 131 dollar donation to the consulate. or at least it was now I believe its in the area of 300

It's not impossible or else! You just need to satisfy the basics and then be lucky not fall outside the quota for that month/week/day.

Let me ask you this: How many individuals you think hold a US visa in their passport in the DR? And what percentage that represents of the total population (taking off the 1.5 million Haitians + in the DR alredy making the total) in the country?

 

[PICHARDO]

Bienamor, the wife of one of my business partners just got a 3-month student visa to a University in Japan, paid by the Japanese.

With a work permit as well, I bet!

 

[bienamor]

Bienamor, the wife of one of my business partners just got a 3-month student visa to a University in Japan, paid by the Japanese.

good for her, but you really dont hear a lot about it!

 

[Robert]

Clean up in aisle 3! Move along, nothing to see here...