Commonwealth of Haiti territory of the USA

[Vacara]

Firstly I am not American and not comparing race issues to the USAs.
The issue is it is crazy to deny the fact that many Dominicans have African blood running through their veins. This can be proven by DNA testing it is not even debatable anymore.
Cuba is a very mixed country also and the typical Cuban wont deny their African hertitage like Dominicans do...actually the opposite, they embrace it, and have respect for their total combined roots and history.

And regarding this war history Haiti hundreds of years ago. I asked one of my Dominican friends why he disliked Haitians so much and he pulled out that old war card too. But when I asked him why he did not hold such contempt for Spaniards based on the tainted and abusive history with that European country he said oh well...silence again.

Its the strong denial that people take issue with.

There's a reason why Cuba and Puerto Rico were the last two Latin American countries to abolish slavery and it was not cuz the love for their African roots. Read the article in this link,

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2005/is_n3_v31/ai_20574141/?tag=content;col1

It makes for an interesting one hour reading and shows how much anything that was related to Africa was despised in Machado's and Batista's Cuba. I still believe those trend continues. I highly recommend this article because of it implication for DR, a good chunk of the more than 100,000 Haitians deported from Cuba ended up in DR and were later killed by Trujillo.

Today there's 400,000 Haitians descendants in Cuba and almost all of them are at the bottom of the social ladder.

Regarding the abuses against Dominicans; not true, Spaniards exterminated the Indian but almost no abuses against Dominicans, if anything just for a few years in the 1860's

 

[cobraboy]

it is simply that we see People or Races.

for me they are all People,
for others they are all different Races.
Mike

Can't "people" be of different "races?"

But don't we see, for better or worse, the "race". i.e. physical characteristics, before we can see the individual humanity?

The difference is the individual, personal assumption folks make based on the physical characteristics of that person.

Heck, I'm the quintessentiaal WASP posterboy in appearance. You think a whole lot of folks, especially Dominican folks, don't make assumptions on me based on physical attributes?:cheeky:

 

[Thandie]

Her 'black' connection was her Venezuelan father; yet to many she's 'black', forget latino.

Mariah is actually an interesting example to use. In the DR, she's white; in the US many consider her 'black' or 'African-American', any Hispanic that knows of her 'Venezuelan connection' will consider her Hispanic.

Physically, she doesn't look black.

NALs

Her father was a black Venezuelan. She looks more white (except for her extra curly hair) but the difference is she does not deny her white or black heritage, she proudly embraces both. Her siblings have more of her dads features than she does, they look more black.
She is 'now' labelled biracial not exclusively black/African American by many (Isnt biracial on the US census now?).

IMO she is not considered Hispanic by the latino community.
Never have seen her honoured at latin award shows like the Latin Grammys or in latin magazines and radio stations.

And no when she first came out, most people thought she was white....'who is this white woman who can sing like Whitney Houston'.
She has said in interviews that at times, early in her career, record executives who were not aware that her father was a black man would often make racist comments about blacks in her presence...once other black musicans left the room. And how she was shocked because it was always the people that she never suspected to be racist.

 

[Thandie]

......Cuba. I still believe those trend continues.

Are you kidding me? Hahaha. You have obviousoly have never been to Cuba recently and know very little of Cuba in the last 50 years. Not denying there is still some racism in Cuba but nothing like what I have seen in the DR. Castro has had close and affectionate relationships with many African presidents. Sent Cuban troops to fight in Africa, Angola. Talks highly of the black people who were so nice to him in Santiago during the revolution. Made sure there was no discrimination based on skin colour in terms of access to education. I know many black Cuban doctors and professionals in Cuba. Stayed in Harlem when he visted NY and pubically embraced the black community there.
Afro-Cuban music bands are plenty and well respected and accepted in the country. Proudly singing in ancient Yoruba language in some of their songs. Practicing African based religions like Santeria is still very popular in Cuba and promoted. Castro proudly admits to practicing Santeria to. You cant walk 2 feet without seeing men and women dressed in full white or people wearing the colourful Santeria beads. Many houses have mini altars to their Santeria gods in plain view in their living rooms and routinely present offerings. African cultural influence in Cuba is strong, respected and not denied.
I have many African friends who have travelled to Cuba and love it, felt so at home and never have experienced any racism.

Today there's 400,000 Haitians descendants in Cuba and almost all of them are at the bottom of the social ladder.

Regarding the abuses against Dominicans; not true, Spaniards exterminated the Indian but almost no abuses against Dominicans, if anything just for a few years in the 1860's

But that is the difference between the DR and Cuba in this area, the people of Haitian decent mainly in Santiago de Cuba are NOT excluded from their nationality, their birthright and called Haitian. THEY ARE RIGHTFULLY CALLED AND ACCEPTED AS CUBAN! They were born and raised in Cuba and their family of many generations too, there has been so much mixing people are not concerned with dissecting what percentage of Haitian ancestory someone has. Why because it is not generally viewed as a negative.
And social ladder in Cuba? The majority of Cubans are poor...dark and light, with the exception of the elect few.

Cuba is a cultural travellers gem because they proudly and beautifully display all aspects of Cuban culture, even the part that is obviously influenced by Haiti. Carnival in Santiago de Cuba is amazing! The Haitian, African, European, Chinese cultural influences make it unique and beautiful!

And I thought Dominicans were mixed with Indian too? lol
And 'just a little bit of abuse'...again you cant be a little pregnant.
Oy vie the logic hahaha

 

[ExtremeR]

Her father was a black Venezuelan. She looks more white (except for her extra curly hair) but the difference is she does not deny her white or black heritage, she proudly embraces both. Her siblings have more of her dads features than she does, they look more black.
She is 'now' labelled biracial not exclusively black/African American by many (Isnt biracial on the US census now?).

IMO she is not considered Hispanic by the latino community.
Never have seen her honoured at latin award shows like the Latin Grammys or in latin magazines and radio stations.

And no when she first came out, most people thought she was white....'who is this white woman who can sing like Whitney Houston'.
She has said in interviews that at times, early in her career, record executives who were not aware that her father was a black man would often make racist comments about blacks in her presence...once other black musicans left the room. And how she was shocked because it was always the people that she never suspected to be racist.

Another example or trying to compare the USA situation to the DR situation. That anecdote I could believe it because it is the truth in many circles within USA. But in the DR you won't witness such remarks when surrounded by white people only, while you may hear derogative remarks to people in lower social scale, even here in DR1 you notice the bashing of the chopos and barrio tigueres, doesn't matter if they are black, brown, white or purple. Remember people DR is classist, not racist.

 

[Thandie]

They are not black, but not light skin either.

There are many shades of gray, or should I say brown in between.

They are lighter than blacks, but not light-skin per se.

-NALs

Nals there is not one universal shade of black skin or one typical black look....dont forget their are many shades, diversity and varying phyiscal features in the black community too.
From a Beyonce to Naomi Campbell to varying looks and skin shades from East to West Africa.

I remember my Cuban friend said than many Dominicans look like East African people and after taking notice I see the similarities and agree.

YouTube - Ethiopian MODEL -LYDIA
East African model

 

[Thandie]

Another example or trying to compare the USA situation to the DR situation. That anecdote I could believe it because it is the truth in many circles within USA. But in the DR you won't witness such remarks when surrounded by white people only, while you may hear derogative remarks to people in lower social scale, even here in DR1 you notice the bashing of the chopos and barrio tigueres, doesn't matter if they are black, brown, white or purple. Remember people DR is classist, not racist.

The Mariah issue was raised by Nals and was a response to that.
I disagree and as many different posters, some who are Dominican, on this board who have shared personal stories where they have heard such derogative remarks..sometimes from their own family members.

To think that class and race are not connected, especially in Latin America is delusional.

 

[MikeFisher]

Can't "people" be of different "races?"

But don't we see, for better or worse, the "race". i.e. physical characteristics, before we can see the individual humanity?

The difference is the individual, personal assumption folks make based on the physical characteristics of that person.

Heck, I'm the quintessentiaal WASP posterboy in appearance. You think a whole lot of folks, especially Dominican folks, don't make assumptions on me based on physical attributes?:cheeky:

of course they can/heck, they ARE of different races and they are PEOPLE.
that's exactly my point.
b/c i give a damn on race or color.
i like him/her or i don't like him/her,
the reason why i like or dislike somedody is not located in the race,
WE are all PEOPLE.
Mike

 

[NALs]

I remember my Cuban friend said than many Dominicans look like East African people and after taking notice I see the similarities and agree.

YouTube - Ethiopian MODEL -LYDIA
East African model

Its interesting you mention East Africa and choose an Ethiopian woman as proof of your assertion. Its widely known that the horn of Africa has been penetrated by non-Africans, particularly Arabs, for milenias. The lighter skin more European looking Ethiopians of the northern part of the country are the first one's to tell you not only of this fact and the subsequent mixtures that occurred, but also that they themselves are not black. In fact, the darker Ethiopians are often regarded as not 'true' Ethiopians by the light skin minority. They also maintain the hegemony in that country and reject the darker Ethiopians from the southern part to such a degree, that dark skin Ethiopians that come to contact with the lighter one's from the north are often humiliated, denigrated, and chastised to a degree that not even Haitians are submitted to in the DR. And the darker Ethiopians don't have a relatively hostile history with the lighter one's and all of them are genuine Ethiopians, which is what makes their case much more incomprehensible. Once they reach the US, their adamant attitude towards most African Americans is well known.

Africa is a very large continent. Several continental US can fit into that place. Through the course of history, Africa has also been infiltrated by non-Africans and peoples with no physical black heritage and/or only partial; such as the Arabs and Berbers that have traditionally inhabited the Maghreb, all along the Egyptian Nile River (this area was even subjected to European intermingling as early as the time when Augustus Ceasar ruled the Roman Empire - biblical times), and the scores of Arabs that infiltrated the so-called horn of Africa (Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Sudan, etc). The Europeans peppered the entire African coast, from Alexandria in Egypt to the currently Spanish colony of Ceuta, all the way down to Angola, around the cape of South Africa, the coast of Mozambique, until we're back in the horn and in Egypt itself. Expeditions of Africa's interior took the European man into the most intimate of African places, and later with the arrival of Asians, especially Pakistanis - an ethnic group that has consisted as the dominant class in more than a few African countries - among other non-African peoples have, with little doubt, done their share in expanding the sub-Saharan African gene pool. There are certain human habits that are simply unavoidable. Plus, the light skin 'examples' often used fail to be a pervasive majority in any single African country.

And then comes the issue of the slave trade, from which the African component in the Americas whether in its full unmixed trait (highly rare) or in partial existence among a mix of something else was given a significant presence, they too only hail from specific regions of Africa. The Spaniards extracted their African labor from Western Africa, places today comprising countries like the two Congos, Nigeria, Ghana, so on and so forth. These are places that to this very day, the vast majority of the people are as dark as one would imagine an African and there too has been admixture. East Africa, where within the continent the more European and light skin look is the most common outside of South Africa, was never a source of slaves for the America's, despite they being the descendants of an admixtures that has been taken places for thousand of years, not withstanding.

Let's just hope the light skin European looking Ethiopian minority from the northern part of that country don't stumble upon this thread. If any of them does and decides to participate, it might just be dejavu all over again. :surprised

-NALs

 

[NALs]

I disagree and as many different posters, some who are Dominican, on this board who have shared personal stories where they have heard such derogative remarks..sometimes from their own family members.

To think that class and race are not connected, especially in Latin America is delusional.

I too have heard derogatory remarks from my own family, but I would hardly say that class and race are connected; because they simply are not.

In a country like the DR, a black individual with an education, a respectable career, and good social position is not a black person in a suit. He's equal to everyone else.

In a country like the US, well as the old saying goes, you're simply a n**** in a suit.

That's the difference between a society whose concept of ethnicity is based on physical and class-related attributes vs. a society whose racial concept is based on biology.

You have to understand this in order to understand everything else.

Until then, you will keep hitting off the mark by a long shot.

If you have a good command of Spanish, I suggest you read the following article:

http://convergencia.uaemex.mx/rev38/38pdf/LIZCANO.pdf

Clearer than that, not even water.

-NALs

 

[Hillbilly]

VAcara has made a major historical error. Brazil was the last country in Latin America to eliminate slavery, not Cuba or Puerto Rico who did it ten or so years before.

Hb

 

[catcherintherye]

"In a country like the US, well as the old saying goes, you're simply a n**** in a suit."
NALs

NALs' statement above is just plain wrong, but it demonstrates perfectly the subtle duplicity of his rhetoric.

That statement by NALs is a calculated misrepresentation of reality. It is one of those statements that is so ridiculous and the contradictive evidence is so clearly established, it really doesn't deserve any serious rebuttal.

However,in brief and general terms, NALs' warped view is proven false by overwhelming empirical data, as well as by anecdotal examples too numerous to mention, starting with the President of the US, and continuing down a long and comprehensive list of successful blacks, at every level of US society.

Perhaps more importantly, his statement is indicative of his most basic nature. NALs consistently projects his own belief system onto the world at large. This tendency has clouded many of his conjectures. The pathetic result is that NALs considers his twisted conceptualization of reality to be a viable characterization of the rest of the world. Hence, we are presented with NALs' world, full of racism, classism, and academic snobbery, which he defends with countless out-of-context statistics and endless infusions of meaningless gobbelty goop.

More importantly, this tendency reflects an egocentric arrogance that is close to pathological, and would be humorous if it weren't so dangerously destructive.

 

[IslandDreaming]

I too have heard derogatory remarks from my own family, but I would hardly say that class and race are connected; because they simply are not.

In a country like the DR, a black individual with an education, a respectable career, and good social position is not a black person in a suit. He's equal to everyone else.

In a country like the US, well as the old saying goes, you're simply a n**** in a suit.

That's the difference between a society whose concept of ethnicity is based on physical and class-related attributes vs. a society whose racial concept is based on biology.

You have to understand this in order to understand everything else.

Until then, you will keep hitting off the mark by a long shot.

If you have a good command of Spanish, I suggest you read the following article:

http://convergencia.uaemex.mx/rev38/38pdf/LIZCANO.pdf

Clearer than that, not even water.

-NALs

Yep, good ole "racist" USA might even elect one of "them" President someday

Find a different country, the USA was and in some instances still is racist but has come so far that Obama was elected in a landslide

NALS, your type of "debate" is obvious and old" provide enough irrelevant garbage and people just simply get tired and go away, no one believes anything you say, they simply get tired and move on

yes, there is latent racism in US, but give it up

 

[NALs]

Yep, good ole "racist" USA might even elect one of "them" President someday

As long as one of his parent is white and he, while occassionally mentioning his multiracial origin, insist on the black label.

I wonder how many AA's would had voted for him had he insisted of indentifying as mulatto?

This is not something I'm making up, just get out more:

Barack Obama isn't black. His mother is white and his father is black. The election is a victory for people who aren't completely white, but it's not a victory for people who are completely black.

zania says:
November 5, 2008 at 11:38 pm

I'm 'multiracial', so I tend to see the hype about Obama being 'the first black president' as just that – hype. But I do understand the elation for many African Americans (and perhaps a thought of 'we've done the right thing' by white Americans accutely aware of American history).

And I do wonder whether he would have been so successful had he been a dark-skinned (as opposed to the lighter version) African American, as there is prejudice within races and cultures and well as between them.

I'm actually waiting for the day when a black woman from a blue collar inner-city neighbourhood makes it to president, but I guess that will be a very long time coming…

Both quotes are from here: President Elect Barack Obama Is Not Black

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Calling Obama black is an insult to his mother

And then there are discussions such as this:

Obama win does not end racism, activists say

Sorry, Idealists: Racism Doesn't End With Our First Black President

-NALs

 

[NALs]

"In a country like the US, well as the old saying goes, you're simply a n**** in a suit."
NALs

NALs' statement above is just plain wrong, but it demonstrates perfectly the subtle duplicity of his rhetoric.

That statement by NALs is a calculated misrepresentation of reality. It is one of those statements that is so ridiculous and the contradictive evidence is so clearly established, it really doesn't deserve any serious rebuttal.

However,in brief and general terms, NALs' warped view is proven false by overwhelming empirical data, as well as by anecdotal examples too numerous to mention, starting with the President of the US, and continuing down a long and comprehensive list of successful blacks, at every level of US society.

Perhaps more importantly, his statement is indicative of his most basic nature. NALs consistently projects his own belief system onto the world at large. This tendency has clouded many of his conjectures. The pathetic result is that NALs considers his twisted conceptualization of reality to be a viable characterization of the rest of the world. Hence, we are presented with NALs' world, full of racism, classism, and academic snobbery, which he defends with countless out-of-context statistics and endless infusions of meaningless gobbelty goop.

More importantly, this tendency reflects an egocentric arrogance that is close to pathological, and would be humorous if it weren't so dangerously destructive.

Catcherintherye,

If you don't have anything other than ad hominen fallacies, then please don't get involved in this debate.

Thandie has offered sound and solid arguments, indicative of her deep understanding of the subject, her attention of the same spanning perhaps years. She argues with solid information, well balanced and substantiated. That's what an intelligent individual who debates against or for the idea(s) presented does.

You, on the other hand, only offers ad hominem attacks after ad hominem attacks. You have no counterargument. Your reasons for rejecting my stance may have more to do with a personal issue you may have with me than the actual arguments I'm giving, and this is understandable given all other debates you have participated in where your constant use of fallacies has become almost legendary. Myself being one of those bringing this habit of yours to light in more than a few occasions perhaps explains whatever personal issues you may be reacting to.

I must say, that once this 'outing' took place your 'counterarguments' ended almost instantly, because you had no counterarguments.

I guess if you can't deal with someone's arguments, then you attack them. Typical of demagogues who demonizes an opponent so that others decide to steer clear.

Attack the argument, attack the charges; not with fallacies, but with facts, with valid counterarguments, with reasoning and logic.

This is not about winning, its about acquiring an understanding of the truth based on a healthy debate and exchange of diverse information.

If you insist on your drive to discredit via ad hominen attacks, it will simply be more evidence that you are not interested in truth, but rather in winning an argument by making someone else lose.

This is not a race, this is not about winning, and this certainly is NOT personal.

The difference between Thandie's arguments and yours is as clear as the difference between the sky and the earth.

Her's enriches this debate, yours do not.

-NALs

 

[catcherintherye]

NALs, If you would please reread my last post. I think I was clear as water that I was referring to your statement(s), past and present, and not you as an individual.

However, statements often reflect an individual's personae, and it is difficult to ignore the pattern of your statements over time.

I admit I have a difficult time responding to the type of outlandish posts you tend to make, and I'm sure there is a much more effective approach I should take.

I also readily admit that I do not know you as a person, and I am forced to make certain judgments based on nothing more then the words you use in your posts. I am aware that is a very incomplete picture of who you are.

I further admit that when I read some of your outlandish claims, like the one I was referring to earlier, I sometimes react emotionally. For that I apologize, and I will attempt to limit my posts to point-for-point rebuttals in the future, although I know I will be sorely tempted at times.

 

[IslandDreaming]

NALS

If nothing else, you seem to have yourself convinced of your greatness and infallibility, so very sad

Anything can be twisted or manipulated to meet a need or sustain your personal opinion, it does not and will not make it factual or accepted by others

The mind can be a lonely place, maybe you should take up knitting (No offense to those that do) or some other constructive hobby as your arguments serve only to entertain and attract ridicule here

 

[El_Uruguayo]

Ok, too many liong winded posts to disect, quote etc. So I'll hit a general theme. That of dominicans seeing "colour" and not race. The fact that you (NALs) will say that dominicans will not discriminate someone based on their race, but rather colour is false. Discrimination based on colour is the same as race, where does one get their colour? Their racial make up. 2 people of equal racial make up can have very different appearances, very light or very dark, or anywhere in between. It seems that light skin deny the mix, the dark skinned have no choice but to claim the mix, as if having "white" blood made them better. It's no different than the US example you give, except "white looking" consider themselves as part of a differnt group than the non-white looking - again genetics could be made of equal parts of african and euro heritage, making them essentially equal. Why is it that light skin mixed people consider thesmelves white? The answer is simple, they percieve white to be better than the other options.

As for Vacara, with a month on the board, under 100 posts, making claims to peoples credibility. I'd wager you were banned from this board and cannot post under your old user name. So much for credibility there. But if you are trying to explain that in DR "light skin mulato is considered white" or that 89% of the population is light/white, I am very aware of how things are seen in DR, that is what this whole debate has turned into. The fact is, that most here are arguing that your average dominican perception on race, heritage, etc. is distorted, making "in DR XXX is considered XXX" irrelevant. We know how things are considered, perception from several other countries, tells us there is something distorted here in this regard, it's odd.

Race to me is not important, but it's obvious that it is very important to many dominicans, if it weren't why would you be so quick to point out that 89% of dominicans are light skinned/white, when it obviously isn't the case??

 

[? bient?t]

Race to me is not important, but it's obvious that it is very important to many dominicans, if it weren't why would you be so quick to point out that 89% of dominicans are light skinned/white, when it obviously isn't the case??

You can say that again:

MiamiHerald.com | Afro-Latin Americans

 

[Thandie]

Its interesting you mention East Africa and choose an Ethiopian woman as proof of your assertion. Its widely known that the horn of Africa has been penetrated by non-Africans, particularly Arabs, for milenias. The lighter skin more European looking Ethiopians of the northern part of the country are the first one's to tell you not only of this fact and the subsequent mixtures that occurred, but also that they themselves are not black. In fact, the darker Ethiopians are often regarded as not 'true' Ethiopians by the light skin minority. They also maintain the hegemony in that country and reject the darker Ethiopians from the southern part to such a degree, that dark skin Ethiopians that come to contact with the lighter one's from the north are often humiliated, denigrated, and chastised to a degree that not even Haitians are submitted to in the DR. And the darker Ethiopians don't have a relatively hostile history with the lighter one's and all of them are genuine Ethiopians, which is what makes their case much more incomprehensible. Once they reach the US, their adamant attitude towards most African Americans is well known.
NALs

I used that Ethopian as an example because I have seen her in an interview talking about her experience in the modeling world as a BLACK model. She does not deny her 'blackness'....just like alot of my light skinned Ethopian and east African friends who all affectionately call me 'Sister'....there is a big East African community in Toronto. My Jamaican friends and family, many who are rastafarian have travelled to Ethiopia (one who lives there) have talked about their experience...
Nothing but love and acceptance by dark and light Ethiopians alike!
The older, less travelled generation, like any society has these distorted views deeply ingrained and they are the slowest to change , while with the younger generation like this model , thankfully those views are changing and rapidly.
This is what you would hope for. With education and information there is growth and awareness and old destructive divisive ideas and beliefs adapt and change.

Of course many people all over Africa are mixed. Africans have moved throughout the entire continent for ever. Of course Ethiopia like many countries around the world, throughout history have been conquered and colonized by Europeans and mixing happened often by force. From India to where skin lightening creams are a big business to the Caribbean, etc.
(My grandma is a white jew, my dad has Chinese blood, and I most likey have other ethnic mixes in my background, but basically I am black. )
And of course in all of these countries and communities you see ridiculous in fighting based on race and colour similar to what you find in the DR! Any guesses why? Divide and conquer.