Do expats feel accepted by Dominicans?

[Chip00]

I think the question should be more like "where do you feel accepted in the Dominican Republic?"

On the streets of Sosua, no. On the beach in Cabarete, no. At the Car Wash on a Friday night, you bet!

I don't find it so different here than I did in the U.S. Every person is an individual and by grouping them in to 'THE DOMINICANS' and 'THE GRINGOS' is demeaning to both demographics? Each persons reason for living here is different, me, I didn't come here to become a Dominican. I came here to just 'be' me.

I love my Dominican friends and I love my Gringo friends, it's all about the people and not the stereotype.

I started the thread basically because I thought there were people posting here that had the opinion that Dominicans were stereotyping them by not accepting them and wanted to find out if this attitude was really prevalent. In my opinion this is stereotyping too to say that Dominicans in general will always see gringos as outsiders. This original thought came from the "Vigilante Group" thread where there are at least three posters that share this view apparently.

Obviously, nobody can expect to be accepted by everybody, neither in their place of birth or foreign adopted country so I understand what people mean when they say they are accepted by the Dominicans - it means Dominicans are not stereotyping them by excluding them for being foreigners.

 

[Ken]

I'll second that!!

The other thing I notice is a certain wistfulness among those of us who arrived when there weren't all that many foreigners here.......... which sends a message to people thinking of moving here. Don't go to areas saturated by foreigners.

Lambada, that is a good observation. Living in Samana in 1986 was quite different than my life today. I miss the feeling of being an accepted member of a small community. However, I don't miss going to the farmers' market to buy our meat, I don't miss the difficulty of finding a good doctor when you had more than the common cold, I don't miss riding the yellow school buses crowded with people, roosters, spare tires, etc., etc, when traveling to other locations, etc. Being in an area where there is more money and more foreigners does have its benefits. But I'll never forget that feeling of being part of the community of Samana in the 1980s.

 

[Lambada]

Being in an area where there is more money and more foreigners does have its benefits. But I'll never forget that feeling of being part of the community of Samana in the 1980s.

I'll agree that being in an area where there is more money has its benefits. That's why we live in Bayardo . I'll pass on the 'more foreigners' though........ But if we hadn't lived the first 5 years here without an inverter and/or generator, for example, we would never have known what life was like for the vast majority of Dominicans. Which means we wouldn't appreciate what we have now nor would we give out an unspoken understanding of others' situation. It's that part I find so difficult to get across to expats who start out in luxury from their first weeks here. Years ago one had no option but to walk in others' shoes; locals sense that & so the acceptance thing is a lot easier. When I meet another expat who has walked in local shoes I know immediately. Same as I know when I met one who hasn't. If it sticks out that clearly to me, it must be doubly so to a Dominican.

I wonder how we can overcome that?

 

[Gringo]

I'll second that!!

The other thing I notice is a certain wistfulness among those of us who arrived when there weren't all that many foreigners here.......... which sends a message to people thinking of moving here. Don't go to areas saturated by foreigners.

I agree 100%, I arrived here in 1989, first lived in Santo Domingo, and yes I also felt like a "cash cow" not speaking a word of Spanish and hanging around with low life Gringo's who drank to excess.

I found that I liked this Country but not the company I was keeping so I moved to Puerto Plata in hopes of securing a job since I was only 37 at that time and money was running out.

I found an apartment in a barrio, found a job and was determined to learn the language. I was told at that time by a Dominican friend that I should not go into town dressed in short paints if I wanted to be accepted rather then to be viewed as a tourist gringo.

I met and married a Dominican girl (Just had our 13th. anniversary) from the campo (country side) bought a new house in a Dominican area no gringo's, for RD$ 200.000 Pesos, around $20.000 US. at that time (I wish I bought six) and finally felt accepted into the Dominican community.

As Lambada pointed out, If you want to be accepted don't live in areas saturated with other gringo's.

I would not live in one of those gated gringo compounds if you paid me!

Yes I feel accepted because I put the effort into it.

 

[Rick Snyder]

I think the statement by Lambada as to living like and therefore having a better understanding of the Dominicans is definitely a must here.

I too lived almost 8 years here without a generator or inverter along with 3 years without a motorcycle. Back in 98 after the hurricane we were without electricity for 11 months and everyone had to live the same in this little town. Even today we are forced to carry water up to the house at times due to the inefficiency of INAPA. Visiting the schools and seeing the conditions of a public structure and children sitting on the floor or on a cement block along with all the other normal conditions here has a tendency to make you humble and more appreciative of the ability of these people to smile day in and day out.

Getting back to the non-acceptance side of the coin, my motorcycle comes to mind. In my daily excursions to town I invariably give a ride to a neighbor that is walking toward the center of town. Needless to say I do this at no charge because I know they really don?t have the money to pay a motoconcha and the fact that they would rather ride for free then walk for free. When I drop them off there are always at least 5 or more motoconchas in the vicinity and there have been times when something has been said about ?that American taking my business away?. This sediment isn?t or doesn?t seem to be held by all but I can understand where they are coming from with this feeling. I have seen times where one of them has been asked for a bola (free ride) and some will give it and some won?t. That, in my opinion, relates to their ability to ?walk in their neighbors shoes?.

Dominicans are a resilient lot and you have to respect that.

Rick

 

[Ken]

I'll agree that being in an area where there is more money has its benefits. That's why we live in Bayardo . I'll pass on the 'more foreigners' though........ But if we hadn't lived the first 5 years here without an inverter and/or generator, for example, we would never have known what life was like for the vast majority of Dominicans. Which means we wouldn't appreciate what we have now nor would we give out an unspoken understanding of others' situation. It's that part I find so difficult to get across to expats who start out in luxury from their first weeks here. Years ago one had no option but to walk in others' shoes; locals sense that & so the acceptance thing is a lot easier. When I meet another expat who has walked in local shoes I know immediately. Same as I know when I met one who hasn't. If it sticks out that clearly to me, it must be doubly so to a Dominican.

I wonder how we can overcome that?

I often thought in the "old days" that this must be what it was like living in the US in the early days. We bought our meat in the farmers' market and learned to ignore all the flies. If we wanted more than canned tuna, then we had to accept the flies. Grocery shopping meant going to various colmados, getting a few things at each. You soon learned which colmado to go to for each item you commonly used. Foreigners, accustomed to buying a whole bottle or whole package, who go into a colmado today may chuckle to themselves when they see a Dominican buy a small chunk of meat, a few spoonfuls of this and just a few pieces of that, but that is what you do when you have electricity a few hours a day if you are lucky. Buy only what you are going to eat at the next meal.

I agree you can tell the expats who have walked in local shoes. We can talk about our experiences, but I don't know if we can do more than that.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Ken I think you are right about not being able to do much more but I think it is very important that we post those experiences, feelings and opinions as is being done. With the number of readers to this board that are planning on moving here, live here and those that are only coming here for a vacation may be better served by that which we post. It is people like you, Lambada and a host of others that make DR1 such a valuable service for me and I?m sure others. For that I thank DR1, its members and Chip for starting this thread.

Rick

 

[jackieboo]

Acceptance or assimilation?

As Lambada pointed out, If you want to be accepted don't live in areas saturated with other gringo's.

I would not live in one of those gated gringo compounds if you paid me!

Yes I feel accepted because I put the effort into it.

Acceptance to me means that when I go in to a store I?m treated and given the same respect as any other customer, it means that when I engage a person I?m not patronized or made to feel like an outsider.

Assimilation to me means that one lives as a Dominican.

The topic of this thread is ?acceptance?, do you feel accepted by Dominicans? Not, a ****ing contest to see who has assimilated the most in to Dominican culture.

Expressing your superiority over other Ex-pats is just as ugly as an Ex-pat expressing superiority over a Dominican.

 

[Chirimoya]

In my case I don't have a clearly defined national identity anyway so it's amusing to be lumped together with other foreigners with whom I have little in common in the first place apart from a passport. That is, if I haven't been filed under the default "Americana", which is even further from the truth.

For me, being accepted is more about not being reminded that I'm foreign every five minutes, and to have my personal idiosyncrasies and eccentricities accepted as such as opposed to being automatically attributed to my foreign-ness.

I don't expect automatic acceptance from random strangers, because they only have my non-Dominican appearance and accent to judge me by. And although speaking Spanish helps, it's not everything.

Where it does count, is among friends and family, while conversing and joking, when one is included without special concessions. I don't know if this expresses what I'm trying to put across...

Having said that, there are some areas of life where most Dominicans and I shall never see eye to eye. In fact, scrap that and replace with 'humans'.

(I'm feeling a little more misanthropic than usual today.)

 

[Lambada]

I often thought in the "old days" that this must be what it was like living in the US in the early days. We bought our meat in the farmers' market and learned to ignore all the flies. If we wanted more than canned tuna, then we had to accept the flies. Grocery shopping meant going to various colmados, getting a few things at each. You soon learned which colmado to go to for each item you commonly used. Foreigners, accustomed to buying a whole bottle or whole package, who go into a colmado today may chuckle to themselves when they see a Dominican buy a small chunk of meat, a few spoonfuls of this and just a few pieces of that, but that is what you do when you have electricity a few hours a day if you are lucky. Buy only what you are going to eat at the next meal.

I agree you can tell the expats who have walked in local shoes. We can talk about our experiences, but I don't know if we can do more than that.

You know Ken that's exactly what it reminded me of when we moved here: a parallel to my grandmother's early life in Ireland: a simpler life, no electricity, no TVs, but people mattered more. I was going to talk about it, but then I saw the comment about 'superiority' (not from you I hasten to add ). So I will do what I always do under these circumstances: sigh about the unnecessary defensiveness and stop sharing my reminiscences publically. I'd love to hear yours though, Ken, because I can learn from them so if you have a mind to we can take it to PMs or emails. The fact that your nuggets of wisdom (or the few I might have) will be lost to the public domain is well, unfortunate. At least the benefits of moving here when life was simpler meant we didn't have time to concern ourselves with fragile egos because we were too busy trying to cook dinner in the dark........:laugh:

 

[Chip00]

...fragile egos ......:laugh:

I say keep the stories coming and forget the "fragile egos" - this board is flexible enough to handle dissension/and or differences of opinion.

I'm also pleasantly surprised that so many feel accepted like I have been.

Also, Lambada, I explained to my Mom how things are here and she said it was just like that where she grew up in the 50's in the States. Neighbors actually talked to eachother and gathered at the corner store, people watched out for eachother's kids etc.

 

[jackieboo]

At least the benefits of moving here when life was simpler meant we didn't have time to concern ourselves with fragile egos because we were too busy trying to cook dinner in the dark........:laugh:

I guess in the good old days you had to bash other 'non-Dominicans' by candle light......; laugh:

 

[marliejaneca]

Expressing your superiority over other Ex-pats is just as ugly as an Ex-pat expressing superiority over a Dominican.

With all due respect, Jack, I do not believe anyone here is "expressing superiority" over other Ex-Pats. I would think that immersing yourself in an all-gringo neighbourhood would limit your chances of being accepted as you are not involved as much with the Dominican poplulation, right? You would tend to spend more time socializing and living your NA/EU way of life than spending time immersing yourself in the Dominican culture. Thus creating an illusion that the ex-pat does not want to be bothered immersing themselves in the Dominican way of life, which then creates a barrier to acceptance.

The topic of this thread is ?acceptance?, do you feel accepted by Dominicans? Not, a ****ing contest to see who has assimilated the most in to Dominican culture.

I could be wrong, but I also tend to think for an ex-pat to become accepted, they would have to first assimilate themselves in the Dominican way of life. At least, that is how I felt when I moved to the DR.

This is an excellent topic for all to explore. I especially enjoy the comments by Ken and Lambada as they are indeed long-time ex-pats who have the knowledge and experience to share and to make this a learning tool for those who would like to follow in their footsteps.

I also do not think that there should be a debate on this or any type of argumentative posts, but simply examples of how an ex-pat feels in regards to their own personal experiences about being accepted or not. For those who have not been accepted - post, read and learn, for those who have been accepted - share how you got to this point so others don't make mistakes.

Marlie

 

[keepitsimple]

Hey been having a great discusion with Chip00 in private messages about this subject .

I feel my point of view is fairly objective because I dont have any economic reasons to hold any punches (such as , Buisness,Real Estate,toursism ect. )

First off if you come as an expat it should be assumed that you speak the language . Not only that but if you are with two people one who doesn't speak english and the other who does , then good manners dictates that you speak spanish only . It works that way in America (And YES I call it America thats our name if anyone has a problem with it take it up with 500 years of history :devious: )

My next issue will be one that I call of culture . "Culture" is catch phrase people throw around here when any expat gets ****y on the boards . Poeple are screaming that you have integrate with Dominican Culture and I would agree halfway. Halfway because thats where I'm willing to meet anyone and if they aren't willing to meet me there to hell with them . Maybe a thread discussion the specifics of Dominican Culture would be good at a latter date .

Music is an Issue that devides people , hell personaly I'm into some good old rock and roll , and while I wouldn't expect a native to share my tastes (even though some do) , I will NEVER EVER enjoy sitting at a colmado listening to bachata . Im sorry its not my thing but I can respect it even tolerate it , but mock me for my personal tastes and at best I'll probably tell you to "Fly a Kite"

Oh yeah the word "Gringo" I don't tolerate it! Its a racial epitath like any other . Hell I dont call dominicans "Spics" so I demand the same respect . Go to new york and call a dominican a spic and call me after you get out of the hospital . My name is not Gringo its Bruce if thats too dificult I'll even bregrudgingly accept being called Americano.

On the other hand expats can't come to the DR, and rub in the natives faces that things are better in the states or or that bthey are done better . There better methods of dialog that are more effective .

Lastly we have to remember that life isn't black and white its comes in all shades , and no one can say "All Dominicans are ......" These people come in all shapes sizes and types . There are good people and bad . Mostly its the former people that posters refer too but to be objective you need to look at both sides of the coin . Its a great Island if not we wouldnt be here we would be in jamaca probably :

Just my thoughts
Keepitsimple

PS Just to make it clear if I offended anyone , that was my intention :rambo:

PSS By no means these are my complete thoughts on the subject but this is a start.

 

[marliejaneca]

PSS By no means these are my complete thoughts on the subject but this is a start.

Okay aranoid:

But are you accepted?

That is the topic here, not what generalizations people make that upset you!

Marlie

 

[djlawlaw]

Wow, I just wasted five minutes of my time reading that.

 

[Matilda]

Having spoken to my Dominican husband he says that for an ex-pat to be accepted they MUST speak Spanish. he says that most Dominicans like ex pats as they know they bring jobs and opportunities. If they own a house they usually employ a maid and/or gardener etc, and often they will own a business and employ Dominicans. However he says the happiest Dominicans are the dogs as Dominicans don't feed their dogs well, but ex pats do!!!

Matilda

 

[jackieboo]

With all due respect, Jack, I do not believe anyone here is "expressing superiority" over other Ex-Pats. I would think that immersing yourself in an all-gringo neighbourhood would limit your chances of being accepted as you are not involved as much with the Dominican poplulation, right? You would tend to spend more time socializing and living your NA/EU way of life than spending time immersing yourself in the Dominican culture. Thus creating an illusion that the ex-pat does not want to be bothered immersing themselves in the Dominican way of life, which then creates a barrier to acceptance.

I could be wrong, but I also tend to think for an ex-pat to become accepted, they would have to first assimilate themselves in the Dominican way of life. At least, that is how I felt when I moved to the DR.

Marlie:

How do I put this where it doesn't seem combative or argumenitive?

Well.... how about don't assume that all expats that live here can't speak Spanish? Or, don't assume that because you don't 'live' in a Dominican house, in a Dominican neighborhood you are never going to be accepted.

What kind of acceptance are we looking for anyway? How about a thanks here and there? Like 'thanks' for raising my property values 400% over the past 3 years or 'thanks' for paying triple what I'd make working for a fellow Dominican?

It's a two way street boys and girls, we're helping them economically and they're teaching us not to be so darn uptight.

 

[keepitsimple]

Okay aranoid:

But are you accepted?

That is the topic here, not what generalizations people make that upset you!

Marlie

Escuse me if I'm incorrect , but maybe because I didn't give you an advertisement for Dominican Republic I upset you ?

Aren't those same generalizations Dominicans make related to acceptance ?

As far as being Accepted it would be Doltish for me to say " Dominican Republic Accepts me!" I would be more incline to say that some accept me and some dont .

The subject matter is a tough one , and what I was trying to acheive was some of factors that could affect Acceptance here .

I am also of the opinion that the goal of acceptance is not the same as assimilation . I'll meet anyone Halfway in a spirit of compromise in order for us to accept each other , but its asinine for anyone to say that because I live here I must assimilate ? Just the thought is getting me peeved .

Regardless I feel this is a healthy discussion , and should be encouraged as such .

Justmythoughts

Keepitsimple

 

[Ken]

Lambada, don't let a few fragile egos bother you. I think the majority on dr1 are interested in knowing as much as they can about life here, and it is important for them to understand the changes that have taken place over the years. If people make dumb comments, that is their problem, not ours.

I don't know why Rocky hasn't gotten involved with his recollections of life here. He and I came about the same time. I remember on a previous thread his story about the bus going from Puerto Plata to Santo Domingo where the driver and partner had to stick their heads out of the side window to see the road ahead.

When I read the threads about bus transportation, I can't help but remember Rocky's story and my experiences riding yellow ex-school buses from Samana to Santo Domingo. When I was a school district superintendent in my other life, I used to wonder what happened to buses when the state required you to replace them because of age and condition. Now I know that they enjoy another life time of use in places like the Dominican Republic. In those days, the seats were regular school bus type with at least 3 in a seat. During my school administration years, 2 per seat was the limit allowed, and that was children. Here we traveled at least 3 adults in that same size seat. The aisles were always full with spare tires, crates of chickens or what have you, boxes of all sizes. It was really something. But, you know, we were happy to have those buses because they were less crowded than the guaguas and got you to your destination much faster.

There was a lot more interaction between the passengers in those days. Now there is virtually none. An effort was made to include foreigners in the conversations and the laughter.

We were very excited when the first Caribe Tours bus started providing service to Samana. I wish I could remember what year that was. I think it was quite a bit later than when service was provided to more civilized places because in those days Samana was at the very far end of the island and the road, in every respect.

I enjoy thinking about those days on the yellow school bus, but I would not want to go back to them. Santo Domingo now seems a lot closer than it did then. Both the roads and the buses are much better.