Dominican Students at Harvard hoist Reformista Flag and Invoke powers of Balaguer

Narcosis

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Dec 18, 2003
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Deelt:

Reality check:

Being white gives you a head-start anywhere in the world, not just here. Money has always been in the hands of the white. Why would the DR be any different?

The "power" "$$" behind the PLD is the same behind the PRSC. Don't lose sight it was our endorsements that led to Leonel's government.

It was a fairly good government in that progress was made and the same underlying fabric that is found in the PRSC is common between the two parties.

Reducing the size of government, and growing a larger stronger private sector are the goals of both.

Restricting the role of govenment to that of facilitator of said growth and builder of the countries infrastructure (roads, highways, bridges, public facilities, etc)

The PRD's M.O. is openly the opposite of the above.

The "haitianization" process is a real one, a political tool used by "populist" countries to grow a party of blood-sucking members that maintain the mother party and "the people: in power.

In our case the PRD draft is done with Haitians.
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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Hi Narc,

You bring up some good points primarily the privatization issue to a limited extent. Sorry to say I don't agree with all of them especially the color/Haitian issue. I think it's an ideological difference not worth debating.

We can debate on the non-existent "similarity" of the PRSC and the PLD. PRSC established the "botella" M.O. so the idea that they now profess to reduce the size of government is a false one. Any one can easily say they'll reduce the size of gov't after the PRD. On infrastructure, please, that was a relative occurance. Balaguer sympathized with Santiago. His infrastructure plan was without logic. Leonel took on a strategic urbanization approach which backfired.

One more thing. When you say Haitian, I assume you must mean dominican-haitians and/or black dominicans, right? Because if you are born in a country, reside in a country, and work to economically support a country then, that would make you a de facto citizen of that country...but that's not a reality in the case of DR. I guess what you are comfortable with I just call a human rights violation.

You are in the b-school, right? If so, you should really know better.

Peace

Narcosis said:
Deelt:

Reality check:

Being white gives you a head-start anywhere in the world, not just here. Money has always been in the hands of the white. Why would the DR be any different?

The "power" "$$" behind the PLD is the same behind the PRSC. Don't lose sight it was our endorsements that led to Leonel's government.

It was a fairly good government in that progress was made and the same underlying fabric that is found in the PRSC is common between the two parties.

Reducing the size of government, and growing a larger stronger private sector are the goals of both.

Restricting the role of govenment to that of facilitator of said growth and builder of the countries infrastructure (roads, highways, bridges, public facilities, etc)

The PRD's M.O. is openly the opposite of the above.

The "haitianization" process is a real one, a political tool used by "populist" countries to grow a party of blood-sucking members that maintain the mother party and "the people: in power.

In our case the PRD draft is done with Haitians.
 
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Narcosis

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Deelt:

What you fail to recognize is the fact the privitazation process started under a PRSC term, ironically all three parties voted favorably for it in congress although today the PRD wants to deny it for political reasons.

You need to understand these three parties are very different from the 60's or 70's in that at least the PRSC and the PLD have made obvious changes towards the center, embracing globaliztion and private enterprise.

Similarities between the PLD and PRSC are not a coincidence, as the two founders of these parties had lost their ideological influence upon party members in some areas during their last years among the living; where out-dated views were renewed to fit the times.

Balaguer is still respected among many Dominicans for the importance of his role in our history. He was by all means the father of Dominican infrastructure and did it all without needing to borrow money abroad.

Although Balaguer did foster a populist father-figure image, he did it under a deep knowledge of the Dominican way of thought as it was arguable needed at that time in history (diferent thread).

Botellas have been part of Dominican politics for as long as government has existed, this is exactly why a smaller government is needed and IS part of the PRSC agenda as openly stated by Eduardo Estrella.

What I hope we can agree upon is the urgent need to defuse all that is PRD related.

Hopefully in the future we will debate between PLD and PRSC each maybe taking a slight tilt in each direction idealogically to include the forward-thinking neo-liberal people like yourself and the PRSC will continue to represent the traditionalist elite and old money and finally find the balance and progress we started to enjoy before year 2000.
 

deelt

Bronze
Mar 23, 2004
987
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Hi Narcosis

I fully recognize that privatization did commence under the PRSC, I just failed to mention it.

I completely agree with you on all the points and the evolution of the party lines. I recognize Balaguer's position in history. I even shed a tear on his death.

We are in full agreement that PRD has to go. You will not get any argument from me on that issue.

All that said, PRSC's history is too deep and too long and too worrisome.
I think that we need to step away from old school rule. I don't agree that PRSC is as progressive as you seem to think, rather you/your family experienced the benefits of being on the positive receiving end. I will give the PLD the opportunity para que ponga la bala a donde ponen el ojo, to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. During their time in power they were able to accomplish much in the way of efficiency (meaning minimizing bribing to get documents, etc.), and bureacratic efficiency is money in a global market. If people would only understand this... The way both PRD and PRSC do and have operated, respectively, in the past is self-destructive for the country's economic progress.

These are very historical times in the Dominican Republic without a doubt. I would say that what the PRSC and PRD stood for no longer exists. Both of it's leaders have died and the state of civil society is in disarray and floundering because they are trying to re-establish a presence with no concrete leadership other than the self-pronounciation of Hipolito who's agenda is clearly his own, not for the people. The PLD is in an ideal position to make history by establishing Leonel as a viable party leader and progressive thinker. The argument now is how to mitigate the damage that can be caused by the elite behind him so as to ensure a more equitable distribution of resources. Now that's forward thinking. Increasing transparency is the way to go.

While I do agree I am progressive, I've never been called neo-liberal. I'll take that as a compliment, so thanks.

Best.

Narcosis said:
Deelt:

What you fail to recognize is the fact the privitazation process started under a PRSC term, ironically all three parties voted favorably for it in congress although today the PRD wants to deny it for political reasons.

You need to understand these three parties are very different from the 60's or 70's in that at least the PRSC and the PLD have made obvious changes towards the center, embracing globaliztion and private enterprise.

Similarities between the PLD and PRSC are not a coincidence, as the two founders of these parties had lost their ideological influence upon party members in some areas during their last years among the living; where out-dated views were renewed to fit the times.

Balaguer is still respected among many Dominicans for the importance of his role in our history. He was by all means the father of Dominican infrastructure and did it all without needing to borrow money abroad.

Although Balaguer did foster a populist father-figure image, he did it under a deep knowledge of the Dominican way of thought as it was arguable needed at that time in history (diferent thread).

Botellas have been part of Dominican politics for as long as government has existed, this is exactly why a smaller government is needed and IS part of the PRSC agenda as openly stated by Eduardo Estrella.

What I hope we can agree upon is the urgent need to defuse all that is PRD related.

Hopefully in the future we will debate between PLD and PRSC each maybe taking a slight tilt in each direction idealogically to include the forward-thinking neo-liberal people like yourself and the PRSC will continue to represent the traditionalist elite and old money and finally find the balance and progress we started to enjoy before year 2000.
 

Narcosis

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Dec 18, 2003
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I am glad we can agree to the fact the PRD must disolve into oblivion.

The PRD is almost as much of a threat in the opposition as they are in power.

You may recall the hundreds of strikes this party fathered during leonel's term in office. No such behaviour is funded by the PRSC or PLD.

This sort of action from the PRD is what makes them such a threat to our progress and the reason they must be destroyed politically.
 

toothlesswonder

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wventura said:
<<<<<<<<<yeah but MITOCHONDRIAL DNA; the dna that doesnt change from generation to generation. A person could have 1 taino ancestor and their Mtc dna would come up taino.>>>]

Well, we don?t know with 100% certainty that the MtDNA is Ta?no, what we do know is that they are Amerindian. I, personally believe that it is Ta?no because of other facts involved within the study. Also, I think you missed the point (and significance) of the study? although Amerindian MtDNA (maternal contribution) is passed down from generation to generation and ?doesn?t change? over time NEITHER does its African and Caucasian counterparts. The question then is to ?what degree? are Puerto Ricans indigenous/African/White?

You see, in Puerto Rico we have been taught to think that our ?browness? is EXCLUSIVELY a product of mulates ? WE NOW KNOW THAT THAT IS NOT TRUE. Amerindian MtDNA ancestry makes up 62% of our populace and the African MtDNA ONLY makes up 26%! When you couple those results with the preliminary Y-chromosome studies (Paternal contribution) on the island you can easily see that MESTIZOS make up the bulk of our ancestry -- Well over 70% of the Y-chromosomes point to a white ancestry. The African Y-chromosome contribution is less then 20%?it probably will drop further when a representative sample is taken from the island. Interestingly enough, some on the island are trying to distort the results by making it seem that Zambos are the group that most permeates our ancestry even though the evidence shows otherwise? we have a steep hill to climb.

wventura said:
<<<These mtc dna tests have been done in alot of carribean countries, and arawak/taino ancestry is found everywhere. For example in haiti 3 out of 10 people have it.>>>>

Yes, but none are as high as they are in P.R. and Aruba. For example, the Amerindian MtDNA in Aruba is about 80%, in P.R. it?s 62% and in D.R. it?s around 15%? etc. etc. Interestingly enough, the Amerindian Y-chromosome is virtually absent in most of these areas as well as other places in the Americas. In P.R. the number barely broke 10% --it will probably drop even further when a representative model is taken on the island in the near future. The MtDNA is a whole other story though, it is much larger then anyone ever expected. It points to a incredibly large Mestiza lineage that has not been addressed by academics --it's much larger then the mulatta lineage. For some odd reason this new found data seems to threaten some within our academic circles.

As for Haiti, I doubt very much that it will be as high as 30% when done with a representative model of the region?do you happen to know the source behind the study done in Haiti? I would like to read it?

wventura said:
<<<<It makes sense that people would have it, because arawaks/tainos were the earliest ancestors, but that does not mean that it is at all significant. >>>>>

I totally disagree, it makes a world of a difference. What this study shows is that Amerindian women and Mestizas were around for MUCH LONGER and were MUCH LARGER a group then historians care to admit to. They were just absorbed into the general population during the migration waves of the 19th century. There is no other way such an ancestry could permeate the present Puerto Rican population if it were not the case. I?m amazed at the response from those within the academic community ?especially the Afrocentric types. They seem threatened by the fact that there are OTHER brown folks out there that aren't mulattos.

wventura said:
<<<Taino racial admixture among dominicans is insignificant and negligable.>>>


I know some Dominicans that would disagree with your views?sorry for responding so late on the subject, I?m new to the board.
 
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NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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toothlesswonder said:
Well, we don?t know with 100% certainty that the MtDNA is Ta?no, what we do know is that they are Amerindian. I, personally believe that it is Ta?no because of other facts involved within the study. Also, I think you missed the point (and significance) of the study? although Amerindian MtDNA (maternal contribution) is passed down from generation to generation and ?doesn?t change? over time NEITHER does its African and Caucasian counterparts. The question then is to ?what degree? are Puerto Ricans indigenous/African/White?

You see, in Puerto Rico we have been taught to think that our ?browness? is EXCLUSIVELY a product of mulates ? WE NOW KNOW THAT THAT IS NOT TRUE. Amerindian MtDNA ancestry makes up 62% of our populace and the African MtDNA ONLY makes up 26%! When you couple those results with the preliminary Y-chromosome studies (Paternal contribution) on the island you can easily see that MESTIZOS make up the bulk of our ancestry -- Well over 70% of the Y-chromosomes point to a white ancestry. The African Y-chromosome contribution is less then 20%?it probably will drop further when a representative sample is taken from the island. Interestingly enough, some on the island are trying to distort the results by making it seem that Zambos are the group that most permeates our ancestry even though the evidence shows otherwise? we have a steep hill to climb.



Yes, but none are as high as they are in P.R. and Aruba. For example, the Amerindian MtDNA in Aruba is about 80%, in P.R. it?s 62% and in D.R. it?s around 15%? etc. etc. Interestingly enough, the Amerindian Y-chromosome is virtually absent in most of these areas as well as other places in the Americas. In P.R. the number barely broke 10% --it will probably drop even further when a representative model is taken on the island in the near future. The MtDNA is a whole other story though, it is much larger then anyone ever expected. It points to a incredibly large Mestiza lineage that has not been addressed by academics --it's much larger then the mulatta lineage. For some odd reason this new found data seems to threaten some within our academic circles.

As for Haiti, I doubt very much that it will be as high as 30% when done with a representative model of the region?do you happen to know the source behind the study done in Haiti? I would like to read it?



I totally disagree, it makes a world of a difference. What this study shows is that Amerindian women and Mestizas were around for MUCH LONGER and MUCH LARGER as a group then historians care to admit to. They were just absorbed into the general population during the 19th centuries migration waves. There is no other way such an ancestry could permeate the present Puerto Rican population if it were not the case. I?m amazed at the response from those within the academic community ?especially the Afrocentric types. They seem threatened by the fact that there are OTHER brown folks out there that aren't mulattos.



I know some Dominicans that would disagree with your views?sorry for responding so late on the subject, I?m new to the board.

Well, first of all, Bienvenido a DR1.com!!! Espero que aqui usted pueda aprender cosas nuevas e interesante de tu vesina isla Santo Domingo!

Now, to the topic! There was a show on TV (can't remember what channel though) that was about this Taino lineage in the DNA of the peoples of the Caribbean. The show only focused on Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, and Cuba, and they found minor traces of Taino DNA in huge sectors of the population of each of these countries. Cuba had the least and Puerto Rico had the most with the DR having a "significant" amount. I find it interesting since the DR politicians always insisted that Dominicans (regardless of Color) were Indians. Eventhough the purpose was to alienate Dominicans from Haiti (due to historical invasions and abuses from their part towards the Dominicans), but in terms of the Indian deal, they might be right! There are many folks in the DR that have characteristics (in blend with other forms) that seem to point to Taino heritage. Example, I've seen many Dominican women with a very smooth looking black long hair (not the type of whites but the type that you see on Native Americans), many have high cheek bones (another feature of Native Americans). I do hope they do more research into this to see if its true.

It would be detrimental if the DR turns out to have a population that have a least some traces of Taino, at least it would be to those Haitians that love to put more weight on the African aspect of Dominican culture. Ignoring the European and/or Native aspect is like ignoring the Dominican culture because the DR is a blend of all three. Look at our traditional Merengue (the Traditional one is known as Perico Ripiao, not the modern one) and you'll see European Accordion, African Drums, and Taino Guira all making part of the trio. You'll see two dancers facing each other much like in French Ballads, and they move their hips much like in African ritual dances. Putting more attention to one side is like ignoring the Dominican culture altogether. Maybe this will prove what I have been saying all along, that things and people are not what they appear to be to the naked eye. Lets wait and see.
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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toothlesswonder

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Gracias, glad to be here. I actually found this site by accident?I do wish to learn more about your islands history and present political situation. I?ve learned plenty already from some of the post here.

<<<There was a show on TV (can't remember what channel though) that was about this Taino lineage in the DNA of the peoples of the Caribbean?Cuba had the least and Puerto Rico had the most with the DR having a "significant" amount. >>>

That?s just it, we can?t really say with 100% certainty that the Amerindian presence is exclusively Ta?no because we can?t really distinguish Amerindian groups from one another. But we have been able to narrow down certain tribes within the Americas due to genetic markers and linguistic evidence. Interestingly enough, I?ve read that Ta?nos in D.R. were ethnically (and genetically) differently from other Ta?no groups in the Caribbean. In any case I personally do believe that the Amerindian presence is Ta?no because of other linguistic, archaeological and genetic evidence ?we just can?t prove it with 100% certainty. I think the different frequencies within our islands has more to do with the economic systems of the individual colonial Possessions during the 15th-19th Century. The evidence should force educators to see our history through and economic lens instead of a racial one ? race tends to distort the bigger picture.

<<<<I find it interesting since the DR politicians always insisted that Dominicans (regardless of Color) were Indians. Eventhough the purpose was to alienate Dominicans from Haiti (due to historical invasions and abuses from their part towards the Dominicans), but in terms of the Indian deal, they might be right!>>>>

Yeah, it?s just like that in P.R. and NY?some want to emphasize the Spanish/European ancestry while others want to push the African angle. I think that?s how we?ve conditioned ourselves to think that our browness is solely a by-product of these two groups. We?ve forgotten about the OTHER variations of brown on the island.

<<<<Example, I've seen many Dominican women with a very smooth looking black long hair (not the type of whites but the type that you see on Native Americans), many have high cheek bones (another feature of Native Americans). I do hope they do more research into this to see if its true. >>>>>

I?m not a big fan of using these traits as indicators but they found that those who had these traits tested positive for Amerindian DNA (75%). You?ve probably read this but here was some of the preliminary work on the Amerindian DNA in D.R?.Take care.

http://www.kacike.org/MartinezEnglish.html

"Until now, we have identified 15 indigenous samples in the Dominican Republic, 12 of which have been A and only 3 of which are C. The best place up to this moment has been Tubagua, which is where we first stopped along the route from Los Cocos to Santiago [the mountain road called Ruta Tur?stica]. Of the 7 samples that we took there, 4 turned out to be indigenous: 2 A and 2 C. A place that could beat Tubagua is El Seibo. From there we have only tested 9 samples for A, and already 3 have given positive results. We still have to test for C. Another good place was Y?sica, the second site where we stopped along the route from Los Cocos to Santiago. Of the 7 samples that we took there, 3 have had positive results (2 A and 1 C). The next best site was Monci?n. Of the 10 samples that we took there, 3 tested as indigenous, all A. It could be that San Jos? de las Matas will end up better than Monci?n. There we have tested only for A so far, and 1 out of 7 was positive. Among the remainder of the indigenous samples, the only positive result we obtained was one from among the 10 samples we took at Los Cocos. It was A. The 3 samples that Lynne took in San Juan de la Maguana were blanks, as were the 6 samples that we took in Santo Domingo. We also did a test for A among the 16 samples from La Romana, and not one gave a positive result. This suggests that large coastal cities near Santo Domingo have little incidence. To me, it nonetheless appears that Santiago de los Caballeros could have a much higher incidence. Dealing with a large city, it would be highly significant. "[38]
 

toothlesswonder

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Gracias, glad to be here. I actually found this site by accident?I do wish to learn more about your islands history and present political situation. I?ve learned plenty already from some of the post here.

<<<There was a show on TV (can't remember what channel though) that was about this Taino lineage in the DNA of the peoples of the Caribbean?Cuba had the least and Puerto Rico had the most with the DR having a "significant" amount. >>>

That?s just it, we can?t really say with 100% certainty that the Amerindian presence is exclusively Ta?no because we can?t really distinguish Amerindian groups from one another. But we have been able to narrow down certain tribes within the Americas due to genetic markers and linguistic evidence. Interestingly enough, I?ve read that Ta?nos in D.R. were ethnically (and genetically) differently from other Ta?no groups in the Caribbean. In any case I personally do believe that the Amerindian presence is Ta?no because of other linguistic, archaeological and genetic evidence ?we just can?t prove it with 100% certainty. I think the different frequencies within our islands has more to do with the economic systems of the individual colonial Possessions during the 15th-19th Century. The evidence should force educators to see our history through and economic lens instead of a racial one ? race tends to distort the bigger picture.

<<<<I find it interesting since the DR politicians always insisted that Dominicans (regardless of Color) were Indians. Eventhough the purpose was to alienate Dominicans from Haiti (due to historical invasions and abuses from their part towards the Dominicans), but in terms of the Indian deal, they might be right!>>>>

Yeah, it?s just like that in P.R. and NY?some want to emphasize the Spanish/European ancestry while others want to push the African angle. I think that?s how we?ve conditioned ourselves to think that our browness is solely a by-product of these two groups. We?ve forgotten about the OTHER variations of brown on the island.

<<<<Example, I've seen many Dominican women with a very smooth looking black long hair (not the type of whites but the type that you see on Native Americans), many have high cheek bones (another feature of Native Americans). I do hope they do more research into this to see if its true. >>>>>

I?m not a big fan of using these traits as indicators but they found that those who had these traits tested positive for Amerindian DNA (75%). You?ve probably read this but here was some of the preliminary work on the Amerindian DNA in D.R?.Take care.

http://www.kacike.org/MartinezEnglish.html

"Until now, we have identified 15 indigenous samples in the Dominican Republic, 12 of which have been A and only 3 of which are C. The best place up to this moment has been Tubagua, which is where we first stopped along the route from Los Cocos to Santiago [the mountain road called Ruta Tur?stica]. Of the 7 samples that we took there, 4 turned out to be indigenous: 2 A and 2 C. A place that could beat Tubagua is El Seibo. From there we have only tested 9 samples for A, and already 3 have given positive results. We still have to test for C. Another good place was Y?sica, the second site where we stopped along the route from Los Cocos to Santiago. Of the 7 samples that we took there, 3 have had positive results (2 A and 1 C). The next best site was Monci?n. Of the 10 samples that we took there, 3 tested as indigenous, all A. It could be that San Jos? de las Matas will end up better than Monci?n. There we have tested only for A so far, and 1 out of 7 was positive. Among the remainder of the indigenous samples, the only positive result we obtained was one from among the 10 samples we took at Los Cocos. It was A. The 3 samples that Lynne took in San Juan de la Maguana were blanks, as were the 6 samples that we took in Santo Domingo. We also did a test for A among the 16 samples from La Romana, and not one gave a positive result. This suggests that large coastal cities near Santo Domingo have little incidence. To me, it nonetheless appears that Santiago de los Caballeros could have a much higher incidence. Dealing with a large city, it would be highly significant. "[38]
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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That?s just it said:
From my understanding, the smaller islands (Lesser Antilles) were already occupied by the Caribs who captured each island and ate its inhabitants. They were already at work in Borinquen and they were beginning to encroach on Hispaniola. If you read the book named "The Log of Christopher Columbus" (forgot the authors' name) Columbus clearly describes his first attack from the natives in Samana, which is on the eastern part of Hispaniola facing towards Puerto Rico. Maybe that is why there have been some genetic differences between some of the samples taken in PR and those taken in DR. There were more Tainos and Arawaks in the DR than in PR, but in PR there were more Caribs than Tainos by the time Columbus arrived. Non the less, its all very interesting. They did found the remnants of a Taino village/important ceremonial center in the Parque Nacional del Este in the La Altagracia Province in the Eastern part of the Dominican Republic. It's in the middle of a jungle and many highly important and valuable Taino artifacts have been found there. It is believe that sight to be where the Taino village of Higuey (not the modern Dominican Higuey further north from there which was established by Ponce de Leon) that Father Las Casas wrote about its destruction at the hands of the Spaniards. The fact that its located on the eastern part of the country, the artifacts, and the fact that the House of Ponce de Leon is only a few miles northeast from there (as described in Las Casas) gives a high probability that that is the site of the most important place for Taino civilization in the antilles.

Also, since this interest you very much, if you visit the DR someday, you should not leave without visiting the "Cavernas del Borbon" west of Santo Domingo. It has the largest collections of Taino rock art in the entire Hemisphere to date. There are depictions of animals that used to live on the island but are extinct now as well as painting of the caravels that the Spaniards arrived in. This is very interesting stuff. Also, the Museo del Hombre Dominicano in Santo Domingo has an excellent collection of Taino artifacts and very clearly states the history of these people on the island of Hispaniola.
 

toothlesswonder

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<<<From my understanding, the smaller islands (Lesser Antilles) were already occupied by the Caribs who captured each island and ate its inhabitants>>>>

Sorry for the delay. Fortunately, much of the archaeological evidence is disproving that myth. The Caribs were no where near the great man-eaters that the Spaniards claimed them to be. Todays scholars tend to agree that much of that myth was over-exagerated to justify the European desire to "CIVILIZE" the indigenous populations in the Americas. There is much of our history that has to be revisited today...

<<<< If you read the book named "The Log of Christopher Columbus" (forgot the authors' name) Columbus clearly describes his first attack from the natives in Samana, which is on the eastern part of Hispaniola facing towards Puerto Rico. Maybe that is why there have been some genetic differences between some of the samples taken in PR and those taken in DR.>>>

I haven't read that one but I have read others. In fact, Columbus' original diaries have yet to be found! Many of his accounts were doctered by elements within the royal circle. It is beleived that even Bartoleme De las Casas rewrote some of Colombus' accounts. We really have much revising to do. Also, the genetic differences on the islands are different in the "Frequency" sense not racially. For example, 98% of the Amerindian population in the Americas belongs (EXCLUSIVELY) to 4 main Haplogroups (A, B, C and D). The mixture varies throughout the Americas...In the Yucatan region you have a high Frequency of Hap. A and B, in D.R. you have a higher frequency of Hap. C and D. However, in P.R. We have a "High frequency" of Haplogroup A and C (Almost 90% of the population). You see, the mixture changes from region to region, from island to island. Although the mixtures have been traced to various tribes throughout the Americas, we have not yet pin-pointed the EXACT tribes in question --the genetic and linguistic evidence points to the Amazon area.

There were more Tainos and Arawaks in the DR than in PR, but in PR there were more Caribs than Tainos by the time Columbus arrived.

Not likely, the linguistic and genetic evidence doesn't seem to support that theory. There are virtually no Carib linguistic notes within P.R. --they all point to Ta?nos. Interestingly enough, all the folktales and customs also point to Ta?nos...the genetic evidence also seems to back that up. this is why so many of us are starting to ask questions today such as "who preseved those traditions throughout the centuries"? Perhaps their mestizo descendents?

the "Cavernas del Borbon" west of Santo Domingo. It has the largest collections of Taino rock art in the entire Hemisphere to date. There are depictions of animals that used to live on the island but are extinct now as well as painting of the caravels that the Spaniards arrived in.

cool, thanks...I wanted to gather a collection of Rock art throughtout the region. I'll ask my sister-in-law about the region in question, she might give me more info about the area (she's dominican).

This is very interesting stuff. Also, the Museo del Hombre Dominicano in Santo Domingo has an excellent collection of Taino artifacts and very clearly states the history of these people on the island of Hispaniola.
I've heard a lot about this museum...it's another place I want to visit in the near future. Thanks again.
 
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