Dominican Welfare...The Facts?

[cobraboy]

And sorry, but "being poor in your pocket and being rich in your hart" does NOT bring food on the table and certainly does not make one happy!

Your heart is what makes you happy, not gubmint welfare.

Look around. Folks here help feed each other when needed, all without free gubmint cheese.

Dominicans are some of the most generous folks I've known.

I'd hate to see gubmint replace the family here as has happened in the First World. That's a main reason things are so socially screwed up there: loss of the spirit and meaning of what the family is. Gubmnit is a poor substitution.

 

[bob saunders]

Cobraboy, oh boy oh boy

Do you really think you have all the wisdom in the world for yourself and nobody else have?
Do you really think that its all that different in Europe?
Well, in fact, it IS different. We are raised with the same value's as you are BUT we have alway's a safety net, one that is payed for by 99% of the working people and that includes unemployed people, people who have a pension, etc...

Sure, you can be proud that you have sustained enough security for you and your family but I know for a fact that there is not much that has to go wrong in an Americans life and he drops like a brick...into welfare.

That happens rarely in Europe because there is that secured payed for safety net before welfare.

And sorry, but "being poor in your pocket and being rich in your hart" does NOT bring food on the table and certainly does not make one happy!

The problem with your European style safety net is that it requires an ever increasing amount of the worker's income to sustain all those cradle to grave social programs, so when the economy takes a dive like it currently has there are less workers paying for social programs that now have a vast increase in need. The government can sustain this for a short period of time before the debt starts to climb. As a Canadian where our systems fall halfway between what happens in Europe and what happens in the USA I'm well aware of how much our socialized medical system cost.

 

[Bronxboy]

Gubmnit is a poor substitution.

I never collected welfare and am currently collecting unemployment. Almost 2 years as a matter of fact, thanks to the extensions Obama has been giving displaced workers such as myself. Obama just passed another extension. Thank God!!!!! I have been searching and the market sucks big time. The MTA just handed pink slips to 200 transit workers today.

I am hoping that the economy turns around and companies start hiring again.
When the extensions run out and I have no other choice, I am glad that the welfare system will be there for me. After all, I have put over 30 years in the system helping those less fortunate than me.

Now, let's see if I knock on my neighbor's door to see if they are going to put food on my table or pay my bills. I dont think so!

Thank God for your Dominican neighbors. I guess I should move to DR then.:ermm:

 

[Berzin]

Dominicans do not have a monopoly on the "hard work, take care of yourself" individualism that is usually the foundation for ranting against First World government programs for the poor.

To make this comparison is simply not valid. In the US we are taught the ethos of the "dog eat dog" mentality, and whatever you have is for you alone. A "come solo" is definitely frowned upon in the DR, unlike in the US where they are held as people to be admired and envied.

Quite a few Dominicans depend on foreign subsidies from abroad, some who actually do little else but sit around waiting for those remittances every 1st and 15th of the month.

I'm not talking about the super-rich baseball players or drug dealers-I'm talking about the cabbies and bodega owners of the Dominican diaspora here in the states who work long hours and send a lot of their money back to the DR.

This pipeline has become in and of itself an ad-hoc welfare system that is oftentimes perpetuated by the same lies about sick family members needing an operation that tourists are bombarded with in the tourist areas of the DR.

This money helps sustain families and puts others to work when it's sent to build homes and set up businesses. Take this money away and the island would be a different place for those who take advantage of these remittances.

What is seen as the family coming together to help is also, in this particular regard, contributing to supporting lazy and shiftless Dominicans who think money from abroad grows on trees.

It also contributes to the dysfunctional family dynamic of young women leaving their children with another family member to go trollop for gringos in places like Sosua and Boca Chica. And that money generated from abroad by these women is not a small amount, either. It is big business and helps perpetuates the "something for nothing" subculture that exists on the island.

 

[Bronxboy]

Berzin, glad to see you posting facts that makes sense.

It's been a while. Welcome back!

 

[cobraboy]

Dominicans do not have a monopoly on the "hard work, take care of yourself" individualism that is usually the foundation for ranting against First World government programs for the poor.

To make this comparison is simply not valid. In the US we are taught the ethos of the "dog eat dog" mentality, and whatever you have is for you alone. A "come solo" is definitely frowned upon in the DR, unlike in the US where they are held as people to be admired and envied.

Quite a few Dominicans depend on foreign subsidies from abroad, some who actually do little else but sit around waiting for those remittances every 1st and 15th of the month.

I'm not talking about the super-rich baseball players or drug dealers-I'm talking about the cabbies and bodega owners of the Dominican diaspora here in the states who work long hours and send a lot of their money back to the DR.

This pipeline has become in and of itself an ad-hoc welfare system that is oftentimes perpetuated by the same lies about sick family members needing an operation that tourists are bombarded with in the tourist areas of the DR.

This money helps sustain families and puts others to work when it's sent to build homes and set up businesses. Take this money away and the island would be a different place for those who take advantage of these remittances.

What is seen as the family coming together to help is also, in this particular regard, contributing to supporting lazy and shiftless Dominicans who think money from abroad grows on trees.

It also contributes to the dysfunctional family dynamic of young women leaving their children with another family member to go trollop for gringos in places like Sosua and Boca Chica. And that money generated from abroad by these women is not a small amount, either. It is big business and helps perpetuates the "something for nothing" subculture that exists on the island.

Good points.

But even in the US there are huge differences in attutudes and mores by region. For example, NYC (where I lived for a couple of years) and Boston...for two examples...are NOTHING like where I grew up and was acultured, Atlanta and Tampa.

The DR is similar, as I'm sure most countries are, with regional variations in attitudes.

And, yes, the "ad hoc" welfare system indeed exists, and is not such a bad thing. Heck, parents are supporting children in the US taday because of the dire economic situation. But even then families in the DR are more willing to share with others. Is that enabling of folks to not work? Good question, since getting US$200 every two weeks is better than what many jobs pay.

Fact is there is not enough cheese for the gubmint in the DR to create any semblance of a cradle-to-grave welfare state. And now we're seeing the entire world is finding that out.

 

[Bronxboy]

Fact is there is not enough cheese for the gubmint in the DR to create any semblance of a cradle-to-grave welfare state. And now we're seeing the entire world is finding that out.

Definitely agree with this point!

 

[MikeFisher]

I'm not getting free electricity...Last bill was $RD3,000.....

are ya a poor Dominican Citizen who would be entitled to wellfare here but doesn't get it?
Mike

 

[MikeFisher]

re: DR:
there is a system called solidaridad and bono gas, as stated by chiri. bono gas recipients receive some money for propane gas (for cooking). solidaridad deposits monthly small amounts of money to poor families (can be picked up with ATM card).
Solidaridad > Inicio

re: using welfare in a country of our origin:
following her car accident my mother was a user of polish welfare - disability benefit. her right arm is held together by a piece of metal and she cannot perform manual labour. her case was regularly reviewed and benefits renewed. she is now off it as she reached pensioner age and she recevies a pension. she has worked hard all her life, paid taxes and government insurance.

yes,
that is similar to such situation in Germany,
but I would not name such Wellfare, it is the country's Social Security System,
in a way Robert/Cobra boy pointed out,
your mother worked all her life and while doing so she paid her share into the Social Security System.
she reached the point where she been entitled to get something out of it, there it was.
wellfare is IMHO a shelter where the homeless can sleep during cold German or American Winter nights, where they get Food, where clothes been handed out to the poor etc etc.
like the Mobile Food Stations we have here in the Country,
Gubmint and Private Organizations pay for Wellfare,
Sozial Security Plans are paid for by the active working Crowd,
like a insurance,
if something happens you are covered,
if nothing happens you paid it for ""nothing"", which is the Insurance I wanna pay all my Life long, like a Med insurance but you never need a Doc.
Mike

 

[MikeFisher]

In my case, you could have spoken for me. One thing you forgot is that our government recently passed a law that will require us to stay out of the US for at least 330 days each year or we will be required to pay a fine or enroll in a medical plan. Less travel back home and more time in the DR for me.

wow,
that's hard tobac.
so what happens if You are out of the country when a accident happens,
and you fligh back home for treatment,
would the treatment be covered or would they say "you been out of the country since years and did not pay in the big Pott since years".
that stuff is going Downhill everywhere,
I had the last years 2 flights home only to fight for my Fathers right to get stuff done he simply been entitled to, but denied first, and he rarely in his life been out of the Country and paid without interruption into the German system since before he reached adults age.
Mike

 

[MikeFisher]

good points,
but isnt it everywhere and in every system that some do the Job and some simply look for the possibilities to benefit from others sweat without doing any valuable work or contribution to the Society/neighbourhood themselves?

it always been in the German System that some never had the Intention to really work, they just looked for the loop/spot on that safety Net provided by the working people.

the same in the DR System, when family and Hood support the neighbour/brother/mother cousin etc when food etc is needed,
there will always be some who use the Loopwhole/spot on the local Safety Net and wait for some Bucks to arrive from the Family member driving a yellow Cab in NYC.

but they are the exception of the whole system, in both Cases.

I would guess that the USA also contains all different kinda Persons, some who always give all and freely, others who give what forced to give and also some who just try to get a piece of the Cake without providing much or anything to it.

very different systems,
but at each we find the different kinda Persons supporting and using it.

in case of the DR I agree with Cobraboys description,
it is something I like a lot here in the Dominican Society,
some familymembers may be like Enemies around the Year, but the moment one of them goes down the others are there to cover what they can,
they share the last piece of Bred with the starving neighbour, even if starving themselves due that.
such is regionally present in 1st world Countries like my own homecountry, and mostly only on the countryside, and even there more and more Rare,
while here in the DR it is usual and the exceptions are Rare.
but also here,
regionally different, also depending where some grew up.
Mike

 

[RacerX]

a. In the US we are taught the ethos of the "dog eat dog" mentality, and whatever you have is for you alone. A "come solo" is definitely frowned upon in the DR, unlike in the US where they are held as people to be admired and envied.

b. Quite a few Dominicans depend on foreign subsidies from abroad, some who actually do little else but sit around waiting for those remittances every 1st and 15th of the month.

c. This pipeline has become in and of itself an ad-hoc welfare system that is oftentimes perpetuated by the same lies about sick family members needing an operation that tourists are bombarded with in the tourist areas of the DR.

d. This money helps sustain families and puts others to work when it's sent to build homes and set up businesses. Take this money away and the island would be a different place for those who take advantage of these remittances.


e. It also contributes to the dysfunctional family dynamic of young women leaving their children with another family member to go trollop for gringos in places like Sosua and Boca Chica. And that money generated from abroad by these women is not a small amount, either. It is big business and helps perpetuates the "something for nothing" subculture that exists on the island.

a. not true. Simple seen, look at the begging children you pass and ask yourself if these people think "we re all in this together"? No. The people with means care for themselves "come solos y bien suficiente" while everyone else supposedly is eating a "rich in their heart" sandwich.

b. as I was told "My boyfriend should be giving me money every 2 weeks." My response: "Then why has he been telling you he is sick for the past 2 months?"

c. It happens in more than tourist areas. It is prevalent in the tourist area. But its going on everywhere. In most cases, I d assume that the reason many women dont dont go to the tourist area and do what you say is that they dont know anyone or have any family there.

d. If that money was being or going to be used productively then you wouldnt need to lie about it. Most of us feel that if we are truly helping someone then we re free to do so to our hearts content. But...what happens is you get calamity and disaster as an effort to build urgency for you to "give".

e. this is related to a. and c. in that there is competition amongst women for the WU dude or maybe competition is not the right word but envy is. That strong held belief of "something for nothing" you say by hoping you ll meet a man from "over there" who will "help" you. You feed him a line of what I consider the worst lies with respect to intricacy and consistency. The good ones will lead you to water and but not drink. Which is to say that they will lay out their problems and make it sound as though the only solution is you breaking them off some $.

Its dog eat dog because women who arent as attractive to even attempt pulling it off are envious of those that can. Because if they were they would try it themselves. It doesnt even matter how educated, smart or formidable she would be in conversation, looks close the deal. Those that can pull it off are seldom content with 1 WU dude, even the "decente" women are always looking for an upgrade. In this, they know, there is always some idiot who is so unexperienced with women he will marry the 1st dingbat he comes across and then never understand how his relationship failed.

Those women who make BocaChiquing a profession ascribe to the dog eat dog scenario. There aint no We Are the World here in the barrio. My trick money will buy me my fancy phone, or he will send me one. Fancy handbags, shoes all that. Thats is for ME to show YOU who I am based on what I have.
And then he s going to bring me there...

There may not be Public Assistance in the DR, but there is a whole lot of subsidizing of life going on.

As you said in c., d., & e. that I agree with, I wonder how sustainable the culture of vanity would be in this country if the remittances werent so readily available or frequent.

 

[cobraboy]

On second thought, I'm not sure remittances are an ad-hoc welfare system. In fact it confirms what I mentioned about the strength of family and how they freely share with each other.

There are Dominicans who work their asses off in the states and Europe, living in borderline squalor, just to send a few $$$ home. That is sharing and personal sacrifice to help the family. It doesn't come from gubmint, which would be welfare.

There is officially around 15+% unemployment in the DR. We all know it's much worse. But can you imagine how bad the situation would be if even half of the 1,000,000+/- Dominican residents elsewhere moved back to the island? There are no jobs for them.

And I don't think the puta/sanky culture is the norm of overall Dominican behavior. Certainly to those who spend a lot of time within that culture it seems to be, no doubt. But when you are not part of that culture you rarely see it. And it is definitely more pronounced in tourist areas than elsewhere.

 

[Tarheel]

And I was born a poor black child

Quote by Cobraboy:
"You know the saying: save for a rainy day.

Where I grew up we didn't ever think of depending on gubmint. We fended for ourselves. Neighbors and family circled the wagons if someone had a "hiccup." Sounds Old School, I know, but that is how many folks still live.

Many Americans are like that. That one way we're different from other cultures."

Cobraboy answer a few questions for me please.

1) Did you go to public schools for your primary education? That's the hated gubmint at work.

2) How about hospitals? Ever been to one? They are subsidized by the gubmint

2) Did you go to college? A public university that receives gubmint money? Did you get a scholarship? Gubmint loans, etc?

3) You were a pilot, correct? Do you realize that the FAA and controllers are gubmint employess.

I could go on and on but you get my point. The benefits of gubmint in the USA are many and it's hard to say you never benefited from them. I understand your hatred of gubmint but it has allowed a well ordered society that you should be grateful for.

Now we may be able to agree that governments grow too large and try to do too much. But to say that modern society could prosper without government is silly and untrue.

 

[cobraboy]

Cobraboy answer a few questions for me please.

1) Did you go to public schools for your primary education? That's the hated gubmint at work.

Yes. And my family paid stiff property taxes to support that local school system above the per-student cost.

I don't have kids, but paid property taxes to support a school system my non-childern could access.

I AM an advocate of egalitarian vouchers. I don't think gubmint has any bidness in direct edumacation.

2) How about hospitals? Ever been to one? They are subsidized by the gubmint

Yes, and I always either had health insurance that was expensive or paid cash. Certainly my health insurance rates paid for much of the uninsured.

I was also in the healthcare business for years. Two division were in the Medicare system (Home Health Care and Hospice, both cost reimbursed, non-profit) and can speak first hand about the extreme inefficiency of gubmint intervention in it, from licensing to Medicare A&B, Hospice and Medicaid reimbursement.

2) Did you go to college? A public university that receives gubmint money? Did you get a scholarship? Gubmint loans, etc?

I went to a private university for undergrad (football/baseball scholarship, so I worked hard to earn my education) and a state university for grad, no student loans, a graduate assistant football coach and offseason work at night at UPS. I also paid state sales tax and income tax, both prior to and subsequent to graduation, which pays for state universities.

BTW, I believe there is way too much fluff in state universities, and the current tenure system breeds laziness and intellectual sloth (Mom CB was an upper administrator in a stste university before going to an excellent private university, so my perspective is a little different.) The cost of state higher edumacation could be sharply reduced so more kids could afford to go without massive student loans

3) You were a pilot, correct? Do you realize that the FAA and controllers are gubmint employess.

Still am a pilot. You realize, I hope, that fuel taxes on aviation fuels largely pay for the ATC system, right, around $0.22g on Jet-A and $0.20g on avgas? The FAA largely operates on user fees, as it should.

I could go on and on but you get my point.

Me too...

The benefits of gubmint in the USA are many and it's hard to say you never benefited from them. I understand your hatred of gubmint but it has allowed a well ordered society that you should be grateful for.

Now we may be able to agree that governments grow too large and try to do too much. But to say that modern society could prosper without government is silly and untrue.

I don't "hate" gubmint. I've paid all sorts of taxes my entire life, including the higher income tax brackets, so I've paid MORE than my "fair share." I just think it is too intrusive in the affairs of Free Men, and should answer to Free men, not the other way around.

Nor do I think it is up to gubmint to decide who are the winners and losers, who gets free stuff, who doesn't and who should pay. There just isn't enough cheese to go around indefinitely as we're finding out now.

And never, ever have I once advocated "no gubmint."

To be clear, I am a libertarian and a capitalist. I trust free markets vastly more than I will ever trust gubmint bureaucrats, elected representatives, university professors or social scientists. I've noticed that social programs work only up to a point, even those most needed, and then they create resentment and an attitude of entitlement in recipients. I find it unconstitutional that gays are not allowed to marry (they are entitled to the joys of divorce, too:cheeky, am unreligious and I am very reluctantly pro-choice. Ayn Rand was a sexy goddess, Dr. Charles Krauthammer has a huge brain and Ronald Reagan was correct when he said that gubmint is the problem, not the solution. How that translates into a "hatred" for gubmint or advocacy for anarchy is beyond me...

 

[Tarheel]

A true capitalist

Cobraboy quote:

"To be clear, I am a libertarian and a capitalist. I trust free markets vastly more than I will ever trust gubmint bureaucrats, elected representatives, university professors or social scientists. I've noticed that social programs work only up to a point, even those most needed, and then they create resentment and an attitude of entitlement in recipients. I find it unconstitutional that gays are not allowed to marry (they are entitled to the joys of divorce, too), am unreligious and I am very reluctantly pro-choice. Ayn Rand was a sexy goddess, Dr. Charles Krauthammer has a huge brain and Ronald Reagan was correct when he said that gubmint is the problem, not the solution. How that translates into a "hatred" for gubmint or advocacy for anarchy is beyond me..."

So, let's be clear, you trusted the banks and financial institutions that caused the recent recession (close to a depression actually)? And you feel that the government TARP which bailed out the banks was unwise? Do you understand that without that step the banks would have gone out of business? Do you understand that the FDIC would have been unable to pay off the insurance that everyone depends on? Do you understand that you likely would have lost all of your investments.

Do you realize that Ronald Reagan tripled the national debt during his 8 years in office. And Krauthammer is a buffon who said in a recent column that a Mosque near ground zero was a sacrilege. He wants the government to act and prevent it. How far away from ground zero is not close enough?

And I don't wish you any ill but if you get sick enough you will head back to the US and take advantage of Medicare. I'd bet on it.

 

[cobraboy]

And I don't wish you any ill but if you get sick enough you will head back to the US and take advantage of Medicare. I'd bet on it.

Then you'd lose your bet. I am in the DR for the duration. If I'm sick, I will rely on the DR medical system whether I have health insurance here or pay cash as I have for the past 2.5 years. BTW, Medicare is a system I have paid into for 45 years. In fact Medicare has been paid for with payroll-deduction from my earnings called the Federal Insurance Contributions Act, FICA. It is an earned benefit, not a gubmint subsidizes social program. I have paid for it and will until my enrollemnt at age 65 becomes automatic. The only choice I have is do I want the Part B coverage, too, paid from my SS...which I have also paid for my entire working life.

I wrote extensively of the 30 year genesis of the financial meltdown before. I'm not gonna get into the rest of the stuff because it's not DR related and folks find it boring.

 

[belgiank]

In Belgium a working person pays an average of 30% of his gross income towards social security.
This is a huge amount but on the other hand, we do have excellent schools which are free and excellent universities which are around 1K/year.
They are also considered to be amongst the best worldwide.
On top of this, unlike in the US, everybody is free to choose which school or university he goes to, as of course there are good, excellent and less good schools.

We also have an excellent health care system which will pay up to 90% of all medical expenses and will supply us with a descent pension at the age of 65.

If I need to, would I profit from this? Of course, I would be an idiot not to.

This system, unfortunately, will never work in the DR as most people don't pay any taxes here. The poor don't make the 25,000 RDS per month which is tax free, and the rich(er) who are above this salary frequently officially only receive the 25,000 and get the rest paid in cash.

So, the difference between f.e. Belgium and the DR is that in Belgium the rich contribute towards the poor and the looters while in the DR its the rich who can profit from the system.

 

[rsg]

Family?

Your heart is what makes you happy, not gubmint welfare.

Look around. Folks here help feed each other when needed, all without free gubmint cheese.

Dominicans are some of the most generous folks I've known.

I'd hate to see gubmint replace the family here as has happened in the First World. That's a main reason things are so socially screwed up there: loss of the spirit and meaning of what the family is. Gubmnit is a poor substitution.

OH yea, those Absent Dominican fathers can teach us a thing or too about family:ermm:...

And Dominicans do recieve welfare, they just come to NY to get it..

 

[MikeFisher]

OH yea, those Absent Dominican fathers can teach us a thing or too about family:ermm:...

And Dominicans do recieve welfare, they just come to NY to get it..

yes,
you can name many dominican fathers abscent,
while the 1st world's fathers in so many million cases are simply just named "Divorced" while the mothers the same like here have to raise the Kids wile working for the rent and food, just that there more often Granny will not work as a Full time Nanny nor the Bro' of te ex-bride would Feed her Breed.
and talking about abscent Dominican Fathers,
who so many really are, I dont deny that,
but don't forget the so numerous abscent Foreign Fathers of half Dominican Kiddies raised by the Dominican Granny of course.
responsible 1st World my Azz,
there are good ones and Azzholes on both sides and there always will be.
Mike