Guess I'm having fun with this. I said I was done, but yeah, whatever. I'm loved and hated by some on here. If nothing else the basis of our disagreements parece ser este. How mixed are you (please POPNY don't mention. I already know? I don't care, really, because I also know some Chinese in the DR consider themselves Dominicans; and they are. This is not my conversation as far as I am concerned.)? Does being mixed matter? What is the mixture? How many of which color in your family history versus the next? What really is black? Well, this is old news in America. Already been here. What really is white? Overall blacks, again, never named themselves black. Fact is that no matter how dark a black American is almost all, yes all are mixed with white and Indian; noone really knows what country the African came from or European. Must I repeat what everyone knows? This is what, for years in America being black or colored meant; mixed with African and something else. Now should blacks in America and colored people (or one in the same) say to hispanics mixed with Spanish and Indian and African that you are not colored? Should we remain blind to the discrimination and placement your people experience in America? Should we ignore all the marches we have had together for over 70 years? The mixtures of our very own families with people from colored countries that speak spanish? Hmmmm.
Everyone recognizes the difference. There is a different look yet a very similar look (noone confuses the majority of latinos from DR, Puerto Rico, Panama, Cuba, Brazil with Germans, the Swedish, Russians, Chinese etcetera) , and a different language and culture (beliefs, history of each person from each country, food, music, etcetera).
If you even refer to race then yes, you are going by the European's definition of race [not the one drop rule]. If you do not see race and all you see is mixtures of all the same, then say so. Please don't say you are black or colored or confused only because you don't know or you want to include all. Do whatever you have to do but please keep your heritage and teach others about yourself with good will. I have seen enough people sell everything they once were to sacrifice to be White American and won't mention where they are from. For those who say you are White and are not then please continue to say you are what you believe. This previous sentence doesn't apply to what I've read on here but to other conversations.
Census's today include what country a person is from as a race. They used to not include this. Does this mean an Eritrean living in Normandy with full citizenship and later goes to America and becomes a full citizen fills out that she is of European descent on the census or can consider herself white? Basically, historical records by much of the world has not considered "mixed" as being a race. It was something families just had to keep known and pass it on. With my conversations with Africans (yes, I travel, S.Africa, Bermuda, Panama, Puerto Rico, DR, Toronto, Bahamas, Jamaica, 28 of the 50 states; in Dominican Constanza, Santo Domingo, Puerto Plata, Don Julio, and wherever that Basilica church is) and dating 3 (one from Sudan, Ivory Coast, and Ghana) and having another live in my house for 2 years I discovered that they identified African Americans as white. The same conversation I have with myself with my posts to this on this DR1 I had to convince Africans that overrall African Americans see themselves as relative most to Africa. Many Africans do not see AA as black or African b/c of the loss of identity (meaning having no clue of our tribes, our color, country and no proof of our origin). They see many AA as being lighter than what they consider African and see our mixture. However, some do see. The same exists over there in many countries where darker skinned africans discriminate over even darker skinned africans due to skin color; and the lighter darker skinned people are considered white or mixed. So again I see that many do not understand truly what being black or colored in America has meant. Maybe American history should be understood so it can be better understood what is meant by the word black or colored. Again if almost every colored person is mixed and due to the preferences over sexual selection or in some cases laws; one person, religion, country, family turns out lighter than his brother or sister then what is the discussion here?
Come on, I mentioned more than books, more than internet more than just stating my OPINION. Actually, with all arrogance, more than any proof I've seen from another source. In fact I haven't really stated my opinion in hardly any of this. I proved from various sources how much of the world and America views the DR, blacks, and people of color. I witnessed in all these countries what I already said, and these people volunteered it. I never mentioned it. It is often too ignorant a topic to discuss, mainly b/c people prefer not to study and go off what they believe. Back to what I heard in group discussions was they were WHITE or mixed and yes they admitted to African ancestry, but when they said WHITE and were darker than I it just seemed silly. Then the sister with the same parents was called and considered black by the same sister who called herself white in the DR. When Africans considered me less than African and more White I thought "oh my God." So how mixed is one people over another when both are mixed with African and European and Indian but end up looking colored or now the new term since the 1970's (before rejected by AA's) used and accepted by AA's black? Again are we arguing over who is more mixed based on who is lighter? Does one have to have a certain number of ancestors mixed to be considered....whatever??? If you don't have black or African in you then you just don't have it. WHO CARES? Maybe it's the word or the label or the terminology or the history. I read someone mention that they've seen the lighskin AA's and think they don't appear mixed like Dominicans. Again, for the 3rd time is it a question of how mixed you are and what you are mixed with? Been there, know who I am; and yes I respect highly cultures, races, and differences. I also know how to recognize those who want to be something and claim somethings over others for reasons that are not so good.This conversation was way before Sammy, but with respect to MSNBC.com. By David A. Love 9:15 AM on 11/09/2009
This problem is also prevalent in Latin America. For example, Brazil has the largest black population outside of the African continent at 90 million, which amounts to roughly half of its people. Yet, despite their conspicuous presence in society, black Brazilians face discrimination, poverty, and lower education and health standards than whites. According to a "racial atlas" created by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and the Federal University of Minas Gerais, 65 percent of the poor and 70 percent of the extremely poor in Brazil are of African descent.
In the Dominican Republic, Sosa's country of origin, people are overwhelmingly black: 90 percent have African ancestry. Yet only 11 percent identify themselves as black. And as UN experts found, there is "a profound and entrenched problem of racism and discrimination against such groups as Haitians, Dominicans of Haitian descent, and more generally against blacks within Dominican society."
A strong anti-Haitian sentiment is rooted in the country's history. Haiti is a former colonizer of the Dominican Republic, as was Spain. Yet, Dominicans only celebrate their independence from Haiti. Haitian cultural practices are viewed as inferior. The government has engaged in mass deportations of Haitians - and sometimes Dominicans mistaken for Haitians - while also attempting to deny citizenship to the Dominican-born children of so-called "illegal" Haitian immigrants.
But a large reason for this hatred of Haitians is a denial of Dominicans' own African origin. Simply put, sometimes it is difficult to stare at oneself in the mirror. For years, under the Hispanidad movement, the government of the Dominican Republic emphasized the nation's white, Spanish and Catholic heritage, and conveniently left out the black part.
The Dominican Republic is a nation whose hairdressers are known for their hair-straightening prowess and most Dominican women get their hair straightened. Although dark folks are the overwhelming majority, black skin, wide noses and 'pelo malo' (bad hair) do not fit the standard of beauty. So, hair relaxers and skin whiteners are in, and people will call themselves a number of things, such as Indian, burned Indian, Moreno and cinnamon - anything but negro (the Spanish word), or black. This is what years of submerging your culture will do.
Certainly, the U.S. is not immune from this color-coded mentality. African-Americans historically internalized racism by pitting light-skinned blacks against dark-skinned ones, and using paper bag tests for admission to exclusive clubs. Black newspapers and magazines in the 1920s through the 1960s often featured advertisements for skin bleaching creams. Typically, with promises of "lighter, brighter skin," these ads blatantly associated white skin with beauty and success, and depicted dark skin as ugly. Meanwhile, people of color in America still fight against the Madison Avenue standard of beauty, which usually takes the form of a malnourished white blond fashion model with slight facial features.
Sadly, some celebrities of color join in the color-coded madness by lightening up and going under the knife themselves. And people of all colors and ethnicities risk mutilating their faces and bodies to look like distorted cartoon characters.
Sammy Sosa and others must realize that try as you might, you cannot bleach out your history.
Everyone recognizes the difference. There is a different look yet a very similar look (noone confuses the majority of latinos from DR, Puerto Rico, Panama, Cuba, Brazil with Germans, the Swedish, Russians, Chinese etcetera) , and a different language and culture (beliefs, history of each person from each country, food, music, etcetera).
If you even refer to race then yes, you are going by the European's definition of race [not the one drop rule]. If you do not see race and all you see is mixtures of all the same, then say so. Please don't say you are black or colored or confused only because you don't know or you want to include all. Do whatever you have to do but please keep your heritage and teach others about yourself with good will. I have seen enough people sell everything they once were to sacrifice to be White American and won't mention where they are from. For those who say you are White and are not then please continue to say you are what you believe. This previous sentence doesn't apply to what I've read on here but to other conversations.
Census's today include what country a person is from as a race. They used to not include this. Does this mean an Eritrean living in Normandy with full citizenship and later goes to America and becomes a full citizen fills out that she is of European descent on the census or can consider herself white? Basically, historical records by much of the world has not considered "mixed" as being a race. It was something families just had to keep known and pass it on. With my conversations with Africans (yes, I travel, S.Africa, Bermuda, Panama, Puerto Rico, DR, Toronto, Bahamas, Jamaica, 28 of the 50 states; in Dominican Constanza, Santo Domingo, Puerto Plata, Don Julio, and wherever that Basilica church is) and dating 3 (one from Sudan, Ivory Coast, and Ghana) and having another live in my house for 2 years I discovered that they identified African Americans as white. The same conversation I have with myself with my posts to this on this DR1 I had to convince Africans that overrall African Americans see themselves as relative most to Africa. Many Africans do not see AA as black or African b/c of the loss of identity (meaning having no clue of our tribes, our color, country and no proof of our origin). They see many AA as being lighter than what they consider African and see our mixture. However, some do see. The same exists over there in many countries where darker skinned africans discriminate over even darker skinned africans due to skin color; and the lighter darker skinned people are considered white or mixed. So again I see that many do not understand truly what being black or colored in America has meant. Maybe American history should be understood so it can be better understood what is meant by the word black or colored. Again if almost every colored person is mixed and due to the preferences over sexual selection or in some cases laws; one person, religion, country, family turns out lighter than his brother or sister then what is the discussion here?
Come on, I mentioned more than books, more than internet more than just stating my OPINION. Actually, with all arrogance, more than any proof I've seen from another source. In fact I haven't really stated my opinion in hardly any of this. I proved from various sources how much of the world and America views the DR, blacks, and people of color. I witnessed in all these countries what I already said, and these people volunteered it. I never mentioned it. It is often too ignorant a topic to discuss, mainly b/c people prefer not to study and go off what they believe. Back to what I heard in group discussions was they were WHITE or mixed and yes they admitted to African ancestry, but when they said WHITE and were darker than I it just seemed silly. Then the sister with the same parents was called and considered black by the same sister who called herself white in the DR. When Africans considered me less than African and more White I thought "oh my God." So how mixed is one people over another when both are mixed with African and European and Indian but end up looking colored or now the new term since the 1970's (before rejected by AA's) used and accepted by AA's black? Again are we arguing over who is more mixed based on who is lighter? Does one have to have a certain number of ancestors mixed to be considered....whatever??? If you don't have black or African in you then you just don't have it. WHO CARES? Maybe it's the word or the label or the terminology or the history. I read someone mention that they've seen the lighskin AA's and think they don't appear mixed like Dominicans. Again, for the 3rd time is it a question of how mixed you are and what you are mixed with? Been there, know who I am; and yes I respect highly cultures, races, and differences. I also know how to recognize those who want to be something and claim somethings over others for reasons that are not so good.This conversation was way before Sammy, but with respect to MSNBC.com. By David A. Love 9:15 AM on 11/09/2009
This problem is also prevalent in Latin America. For example, Brazil has the largest black population outside of the African continent at 90 million, which amounts to roughly half of its people. Yet, despite their conspicuous presence in society, black Brazilians face discrimination, poverty, and lower education and health standards than whites. According to a "racial atlas" created by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and the Federal University of Minas Gerais, 65 percent of the poor and 70 percent of the extremely poor in Brazil are of African descent.
In the Dominican Republic, Sosa's country of origin, people are overwhelmingly black: 90 percent have African ancestry. Yet only 11 percent identify themselves as black. And as UN experts found, there is "a profound and entrenched problem of racism and discrimination against such groups as Haitians, Dominicans of Haitian descent, and more generally against blacks within Dominican society."
A strong anti-Haitian sentiment is rooted in the country's history. Haiti is a former colonizer of the Dominican Republic, as was Spain. Yet, Dominicans only celebrate their independence from Haiti. Haitian cultural practices are viewed as inferior. The government has engaged in mass deportations of Haitians - and sometimes Dominicans mistaken for Haitians - while also attempting to deny citizenship to the Dominican-born children of so-called "illegal" Haitian immigrants.
But a large reason for this hatred of Haitians is a denial of Dominicans' own African origin. Simply put, sometimes it is difficult to stare at oneself in the mirror. For years, under the Hispanidad movement, the government of the Dominican Republic emphasized the nation's white, Spanish and Catholic heritage, and conveniently left out the black part.
The Dominican Republic is a nation whose hairdressers are known for their hair-straightening prowess and most Dominican women get their hair straightened. Although dark folks are the overwhelming majority, black skin, wide noses and 'pelo malo' (bad hair) do not fit the standard of beauty. So, hair relaxers and skin whiteners are in, and people will call themselves a number of things, such as Indian, burned Indian, Moreno and cinnamon - anything but negro (the Spanish word), or black. This is what years of submerging your culture will do.
Certainly, the U.S. is not immune from this color-coded mentality. African-Americans historically internalized racism by pitting light-skinned blacks against dark-skinned ones, and using paper bag tests for admission to exclusive clubs. Black newspapers and magazines in the 1920s through the 1960s often featured advertisements for skin bleaching creams. Typically, with promises of "lighter, brighter skin," these ads blatantly associated white skin with beauty and success, and depicted dark skin as ugly. Meanwhile, people of color in America still fight against the Madison Avenue standard of beauty, which usually takes the form of a malnourished white blond fashion model with slight facial features.
Sadly, some celebrities of color join in the color-coded madness by lightening up and going under the knife themselves. And people of all colors and ethnicities risk mutilating their faces and bodies to look like distorted cartoon characters.
Sammy Sosa and others must realize that try as you might, you cannot bleach out your history.
