It was very popular but only on boys, I never saw girls using afros in DR, I remember one of my friends of straight hair using tone of spray ( Afro shine ).
JJ
- Thread starter POPNYChic
- Start date
Dominicans in the U.S. Can you identify?
It was very popular but only on boys, I never saw girls using afros in DR, I remember one of my friends of straight hair using tone of spray ( Afro shine ).
JJ
Imagine, if you can---
And IF we are to follow this train of thought:
-A much much larger percentange of non-Hispanic Caribbean women (Haitians, Jamaicans, etc,) straighten their hair, does this mean they suffer from the 'bleed over" that the white skinned Brits & French left over? Quote
OK.. just take a long lens and a big leap and imagine if the Moors had retained control of Spain and it had been DARK skinned people and curly hair which had conquered the hemisphere?
I am not trying to lay blame here. I am just trying to point out some cultural perspectives. I know that I were American glasses. They are glued onto my corneas and no matter how hard I try to remove them, I will never be able to get them off. But I do try. I study. I read. I live in another country, in another language.
To deny that there is white privilege in this country is, in my opinion, wearing perhaps your own sort of Dominican glasses. There is white privilege all over the world. --- well, perhaps not in Asia. I do not know about Asia...but certainly in this hemisphere with its history of slavery. That is all that I am saying. Just to acknowlege that even though the DR may be MORE integrated and LESS racist than, say, Brazil, does not mean that there is none.....or that Dominicans have any sort of consciousness of their African or slave roots.
And IF we are to follow this train of thought:
-A much much larger percentange of non-Hispanic Caribbean women (Haitians, Jamaicans, etc,) straighten their hair, does this mean they suffer from the 'bleed over" that the white skinned Brits & French left over? Quote
OK.. just take a long lens and a big leap and imagine if the Moors had retained control of Spain and it had been DARK skinned people and curly hair which had conquered the hemisphere?
I am not trying to lay blame here. I am just trying to point out some cultural perspectives. I know that I were American glasses. They are glued onto my corneas and no matter how hard I try to remove them, I will never be able to get them off. But I do try. I study. I read. I live in another country, in another language.
To deny that there is white privilege in this country is, in my opinion, wearing perhaps your own sort of Dominican glasses. There is white privilege all over the world. --- well, perhaps not in Asia. I do not know about Asia...but certainly in this hemisphere with its history of slavery. That is all that I am saying. Just to acknowlege that even though the DR may be MORE integrated and LESS racist than, say, Brazil, does not mean that there is none.....or that Dominicans have any sort of consciousness of their African or slave roots.
S
sheepshanx
Guest
I was thinking the same thing. Only 2 things brings you to Idaho. #1. You got a teaching gig at the university or #2. You married a white guy with a dark skinned Latina fetish. I could be wrong but its a scenario.
S
sheepshanx
Guest
You have an insight that I have seldom heard from Dominican women here or there. Most people beat around the bush call themselves indian or some nonsense to compensate for their light skin. Most women either try to deny, downplay it, refuse to acknowledge it, or run from it. In my opinion it has been revealing how much people do not want to be considered black but yet have absolutely no idea how their children will appear. That is why I couldnt be concerned with being anything other than Black. It will not confuse you nor corrupt your self esteem.
S
sheepshanx
Guest
No sale, bro. I dont believe you. You re denigrating the opposing culture while advocating your own. There is just as much racial disparity and rejection in Latin American countries as their is in the North America(US and Canada). In everyone of these countries the darkest people are the most afflicted with poverty and underutilization of community. Whether one looks phenotypically Cuban or Dominican or Brasilian is immaterial as much as whether one looks American. Whether one is black, white, asian or indigenous is what all American countries, North or South America use to proscribe social status. There are few black people in Mexico(in the southern states proximal to the Belize border) but they likewise share the same social status with the indigenous people. This is the same in Ecuador(along the coast by Esmeralda) and Honduras.
If anything I dont think there is a specific position for Dominican culture or Cuban culture in as much as it excludes Black American culture. If you are in New Orleans you cannot say that the diet isnt almost exclusively similar. Red Beans and rice, with chicken? Sancocho and gumbo? Mofongo, Mangu vs. the Good Mash? Moros in Santo Domingo and Habana are not the same thing. Rabo Guisado and Oxtail Stew are how much different in DR and Jamaica? The preparation of Bacalao y Codfish Supper differ by how much between PR and Bermuda? The tune of calypso, soca and merengue differ in rhythm composition how much from Trinidad, DR and Haiti? I dont see a difference. Culture is grandiose, there are minute differences. And I think people grab the minute ones to show how special, how unique, they are and forget the grandiose ones to show how similar they are.
????
-The term Moor, as used by the inhabitants of Spain during that era applied to the Muslims invaders of North Africa.
-Said Moors were composed mostly of Berbers & Arabs. Of course there were some individuals of Sub-Saharan African ancestry, but it is a rather naive modern day trend to simplistically equate the term Moor with 'black' based on current N. American racial definitions.
-"Dark skinned" is a very subjective term. It varies widely on who is considered dark skinned. The following are examples:
Vikings of darker complexion were called 'black Vikings'
Vikings who saw Sub-Saharan Africans called them 'blue men'
People of Nordic countries view Mediterranean people as generally darker.
A Nigerian Igbo will see a Sudanese Dinka as darker skinned on average.
African Americans describe some of their members as dark skinned.
This is just to illustrate how simplistic this assumption is. Ask Cubans of Eurodescendancy ('white') how they viewed Russians and their Eastern block allies who travelled to Cuba after the revolution. They were considered ugly and too pale skinned, I recall the word lechoso (milky) being used. I'm not very clear as to why you made this comment, I can only guess that I get the impression that you seem to think that if somehow a race of dark skinned curly haired people conquered this hemisphere that race relations would have evolved better? If that is it my guess is that know. Different? Probably. Better? no.
I didn't want to guess, but I can tell this from your posts. This is not to overgeneralize all Americans because I definitely have met many that do understand the realities of DR, but I see this trend over and over again from N. Americans in general and African Americans in particular.
No, my unique Dominican AND American glasses do not see any so called privileges granted in DR based on mere skin color. But they do show me what NALs post mentions, that many Americans but more specifically African Americans have a one dimensional racecentric colorstruck view of every issue imaginable. When there's not hard evidence of racism they will seek any trivial superficiality and overblow it out of all proportion with of course the conclusion that it's 'hidden' racism. Please do familiarize yourself with our history and advise how can we have national leaders (including presidents) of Afrodescendancy even during a time when slavery still existed and African Americans were recently emancipated? This while they're just now celebrating the first African American president? Yes I know, two different countries with two different race relations but this point is a powerful one to consider while making judgements on DR.
And now I question just how deep is your understanding of DR.
-In front of the National Museum of the Domincan Man, a well known place where school children are taken stand 3 statues representave of our tri-partite heritage:
1) Enriquillo-Taino
2) Lemba-African
3) De La Casas-Spain
-During Christopher Columbus Day, called Dia De La Raza (Day of the Race) and everyone is reminded of our roots. This includes some school children dressing up in African & Native garb. I just heard an older Dominican TV host (Chevere Nights)talking about how they used to dress as African or American Indian but never European.
-In ALL standard school textbooks it actually speaks about our roots specifyng our Euro/Afro heritage and incorrectly downplaying the Taino component.
I really don't understand what is it that makes some foreigners obsess over this, DR is not a 'black" nation in the way Haiti is. Our founding fathers understood this, DR evolved along the same lines as other LatinAmerican countries in that they understood that they were mostly of mixed heritage.
Black Dominicans are not a seperate minority ethnic group, there is no cultural differences in DR based on skin color. What do you propose? Wearing Daishikis? Celebrating Kwanzaa?
Another person with no actual knowledge of either the OP, the city of Boise, or the state of Idaho. Good employment with high wages. The OP is Dominican but she could be light or dark, or marriedto a green martian.
You should had referred the "dark skinned Indian" to AZB. He's Pakistani or of Pakistani origins, not light skin and yet, manages to be accepted by Dominicans of all hues, especially by the better educated ones.
Of course, AZB is well educated and currently belongs to the Dominican upper middle class.
Isn't funny how his color has not been an impediment to building his social circle among educated, upper middle class Dominicans; even the light skin ones?
Your culture is the most important aspect in your identity and what version of the national culture you will exhibit depends on your socioeconomic class, race and color notwithstanding.
:speechles
This infatuation among Anglo Americans is also manifested in many other ways.
Take for example the notion of Latin America being part of the West.
Through out Latin America and in many European countries, Latin America is part of the Western world. And why would it not be?
Almost every country was established according to European principles and notions of nation building.
Almost every country has a European language, with native/african influences, but its still a European language. That's why every Latin American country that was a colony of Spain, to this day speak Spanish instead of Mexican, Dominican, Colombian, Argentinian. Its all Spanish, which originated in Europe.
Almost every country is heavily influenced by European religions, particularly Roman Catholicism. Even in the indigenous/african religions and beliefs that are present almost everywhere in the region, they all have incorporated Roman Catholic aspects; and almost all practitioners of such religions/beliefs still profess to be Catholics first and foremost.
In every single Latin American country, the European cultural imprint is the strongest, its the part that makes many of the countries similar (with their respective influences causing the differences), is the basic foundation of every single Latin American society.
The concept of what is a dignified lifestyle is the European version. That is why people all over Latin America value a cement home with European architecture, value European fashion, value European cuisine. Of course, there are non-European influences, but they are called influences because they are simply the icing on the cake. Not many Latin Americans would consider Taino indian homes (a wooden shack with Cana leaves for a roof, dirt floor, letrines, etc) a sign of prosperity or desirable. Nor would any Latin American consider lacking even the most basic education a desirable trait, despite such being the case among the Indigenous societies that existed in pre-Hispanic America; except for the ruling class of those societies which did had access to all the knowledge they had discovered. Examples of this and other types are abundantly clear that its obvious Latin America IS part of the Western world, because it shares Western values, an overwhelmingly Western culture, its based on Western principles.
So on and so forth.
Yet, in Anglo America, the concept of Latin America being part of the West is seen as ridiculous at best.
Why?
What is the single most obvious difference between Latin America and the rest of the Western world?
It might just be in the people, not in the way the people act or aspire to live, but in their genetics, in their appearance.
In societies where race is perceived to be the most important aspect in a person's identity, the West equals WHITE, and regardless of CULTURE, Latin America is unfairly excluded from being considered part of the West. Even Argentina and Uruguay, which are the whitest countries in Latin America, are excluded; but this probably has to do with the ignorance many have regarding their racial composition. Its probably not too far fetched to assume that many Americans are shocked when they first visit Argentina and see a country filled with Whites, which probably changes their idea of whether Argentina should be excluded from the West.
In societies where CULTURE is perceived to be the most important aspect, Latin America is, has been, and will continue to be a part of the West; its an extension of the West much as Anglo America and Australia, etc. are. The racial aspect of the people notwithstanding.
And this is only one more example, but there are many examples of how the Anglo American racist belief on what constitutes the most fundamental aspect of a person's identity manifest itself.
Last edited:
Nals you must have a PHD, you know where a BS = BullS**t, and an MS = More of the Same, and a PHD = piled higher and deeper.
The main reason that the South Americans were not considered Western was not due to color it was due to the fact that they could not get their S**T together. normal Ascension to the top in most of the countries was through either assassination, or coup. Plus a healthy dose of dictatorship.
Kind of like Argentina, "Oh I'm going to kick England's butt over the Falklands" yea right, then when they lost sent most of the military away so they could not tell the populace the truth.
The main reason that the South Americans were not considered Western was not due to color it was due to the fact that they could not get their S**T together. normal Ascension to the top in most of the countries was through either assassination, or coup. Plus a healthy dose of dictatorship.
Kind of like Argentina, "Oh I'm going to kick England's butt over the Falklands" yea right, then when they lost sent most of the military away so they could not tell the populace the truth.
Just to name a few
List of Presidents of Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of Presidents of the Dominican Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
President of Chile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of heads of state of Argentina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Haiti - Haitian Presidents
List of Presidents of Brazil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_Venezuela
This article is talking about Black and white in America but it could be applied to Latins also.The only thing holding back Latinos is Latinos themselves. How Not To Be Poor by Walter Williams -- Capitalism Magazine
Sure, sure.
All those coups, assassinations and dictatorships only occurred in Latin American countries, and because of that they were excluded from being part of the West. Never mind the history of countries like Germany, Spain and Italy. Those WESTERN countries never had any of what you mention.
Brilliant!
Some facts about Dominicans:Just look around and experience.
1)We are a society divided by class. There is a strong relationship between class and color. Only money,social position(job, business)and power can bring you close to the top of the social ladder, but not enough to win you a ticket to recognition. Having white skin is a profession by itself. Notice that most recently, because mulattos, or the chopo class has found a niche in politics, many chopos have risen in status and are now rubbing shoulders with "la clase de alcurnia". Take Leonel Fernandez and his wife. Both are chopo class. While they will mingle in the upper social spheres because of their rise in politics, they will never be accepted in the hearts of the upper social classes. This is happening quite a lot recently. The social pages of the Sunday paper magazines never included chopos or blacks. Now both are filtering thru the use of power and new money. Eventually, the upper class will abandon these magazines and create new ways to portray their class separately. It is the same with clubs. If Club PRAIA ever gets forced to accept chopos, that club will turn totally chopo or close down. PRAIA regulars will never mingle with chopos. As soon as one of their secluded fortresses is compromised, they just create a new conclave. The white dominated "upper society" in DR will never accept the chopo class. They will live with it, work around it, but will never accept it in their inner circle. I'm involved in an organization(no name given) which is a microcosm of the "upper class". While a minimal number of mulattos have been accepted for reasons I will not delve in, they're not truly "in". For instance, they are not invited to the same social events reserved for the "uppers". They do not date or marry the other group. Their marriages remain major social contracts, sometimes involving cousins, as to avoid mixing with "outsiders".
2)Dominican dark skin girls in the majority prefer "desrizado"(hair straightening) hair because they want to pretend they have "pelo bueno"(straight hair). They never accepted the Afro style for obvious reasons. No matter how kinky their hair they will try their best to get it "desrizado", which naturally doesn't last but a few days at best. Eventually they have to resort to "the mo?ito" or kinky pony tail(using rubber bands or anything that can keep it under control). Men have turned to gel or just plain baldness cuts to hide their kinky hair and then add gold rimmed glasses, wearing Polo or Tommy caps and and teeth braces to have that white look.
Chopos have now abandoned urban clothing and gone into tight poloshirts and pants to look "the part". They have invaded Lincoln Avenue on weekends to mingle with the Piantini, NACO crowd. But the Piantini crowd is leaving in droves from the area. That simple.
3)Music is a defining element in the Dominican classes. Concerts with artists such as Pet Shop Boys, Depeche Mode, The Killers are strictly for the high society clan. There will be chopo stragglers in those concerts. But the spirit of the concert is pure upper class. Whereas, a concert by Omega, Luis Vargas, Anthony Santos is strictly a chopo affair. Bachata and merengue are for the lower class. Techno, electronic,English pop and Spanish rock music is the upper class music. You will not catch a Vicini, Fanjul or Rainieri watching 9X0 Roberto or El Show Del Medio Dia, or at a merengue de calle concert.
4)In my observation, despite the growing number of interrace/class marriages, I have not seen a decline in the "upper class" numbers. There seems to be a steady % of the population in this rank. The upper class will remain a factor for many years no matter how big the lower class population increases. A class does not commit suicide.
5)I can tell a Dominican a mile away. If you observe Dominican culture traits for a little while, you would be able to tell a Dominican from other nationalities. It is not color of skin, hair,or language that distinguishes a Dominican. It is an an attitude. It is a typical behavior in public. Some of us cannot be spotted because we have learned other ways or were educated in different enviroments. But our majority is like an attitude solid block. You go to an airport and you can tell the Dominican flight from Santo Domingo or Santiago. You go to a neighborhood and you know is the Dominican neighborhood. Dominicans wear the same typical fashion, listen to the same music, wear the same jewelry, and drive the same cars. If you can't tell a Dominican from another nationality you're not Dominican or have not been here long enough. It is as easy as spotting an American in Dubai.
1)We are a society divided by class. There is a strong relationship between class and color. Only money,social position(job, business)and power can bring you close to the top of the social ladder, but not enough to win you a ticket to recognition. Having white skin is a profession by itself. Notice that most recently, because mulattos, or the chopo class has found a niche in politics, many chopos have risen in status and are now rubbing shoulders with "la clase de alcurnia". Take Leonel Fernandez and his wife. Both are chopo class. While they will mingle in the upper social spheres because of their rise in politics, they will never be accepted in the hearts of the upper social classes. This is happening quite a lot recently. The social pages of the Sunday paper magazines never included chopos or blacks. Now both are filtering thru the use of power and new money. Eventually, the upper class will abandon these magazines and create new ways to portray their class separately. It is the same with clubs. If Club PRAIA ever gets forced to accept chopos, that club will turn totally chopo or close down. PRAIA regulars will never mingle with chopos. As soon as one of their secluded fortresses is compromised, they just create a new conclave. The white dominated "upper society" in DR will never accept the chopo class. They will live with it, work around it, but will never accept it in their inner circle. I'm involved in an organization(no name given) which is a microcosm of the "upper class". While a minimal number of mulattos have been accepted for reasons I will not delve in, they're not truly "in". For instance, they are not invited to the same social events reserved for the "uppers". They do not date or marry the other group. Their marriages remain major social contracts, sometimes involving cousins, as to avoid mixing with "outsiders".
2)Dominican dark skin girls in the majority prefer "desrizado"(hair straightening) hair because they want to pretend they have "pelo bueno"(straight hair). They never accepted the Afro style for obvious reasons. No matter how kinky their hair they will try their best to get it "desrizado", which naturally doesn't last but a few days at best. Eventually they have to resort to "the mo?ito" or kinky pony tail(using rubber bands or anything that can keep it under control). Men have turned to gel or just plain baldness cuts to hide their kinky hair and then add gold rimmed glasses, wearing Polo or Tommy caps and and teeth braces to have that white look.
Chopos have now abandoned urban clothing and gone into tight poloshirts and pants to look "the part". They have invaded Lincoln Avenue on weekends to mingle with the Piantini, NACO crowd. But the Piantini crowd is leaving in droves from the area. That simple.
3)Music is a defining element in the Dominican classes. Concerts with artists such as Pet Shop Boys, Depeche Mode, The Killers are strictly for the high society clan. There will be chopo stragglers in those concerts. But the spirit of the concert is pure upper class. Whereas, a concert by Omega, Luis Vargas, Anthony Santos is strictly a chopo affair. Bachata and merengue are for the lower class. Techno, electronic,English pop and Spanish rock music is the upper class music. You will not catch a Vicini, Fanjul or Rainieri watching 9X0 Roberto or El Show Del Medio Dia, or at a merengue de calle concert.
4)In my observation, despite the growing number of interrace/class marriages, I have not seen a decline in the "upper class" numbers. There seems to be a steady % of the population in this rank. The upper class will remain a factor for many years no matter how big the lower class population increases. A class does not commit suicide.
5)I can tell a Dominican a mile away. If you observe Dominican culture traits for a little while, you would be able to tell a Dominican from other nationalities. It is not color of skin, hair,or language that distinguishes a Dominican. It is an an attitude. It is a typical behavior in public. Some of us cannot be spotted because we have learned other ways or were educated in different enviroments. But our majority is like an attitude solid block. You go to an airport and you can tell the Dominican flight from Santo Domingo or Santiago. You go to a neighborhood and you know is the Dominican neighborhood. Dominicans wear the same typical fashion, listen to the same music, wear the same jewelry, and drive the same cars. If you can't tell a Dominican from another nationality you're not Dominican or have not been here long enough. It is as easy as spotting an American in Dubai.
Interesting Golo, because my wife, who I would not mistake for anythin but Dominicans, has been asked by her fellow Dominicans about what part of Mexici or Colombia she is from. In Cuba they thought she was from Chile....etc. Define Chopo- I've heard a few decriptions -what is yours?
From this post and others I've seen, this GOLO character seems to just enjoy making posts that are to be read for either a) entertainment value b) to show us his sarcastic wit c) to be a 'mary contrary' or some combination thereof.
As a Dominican who resides in the USA I'll give you a brief rundown of what I've been mistaken for:
-Arab: in particular Egyptian. This is coming straight from Arabs themselves.
-Puerto Rican: By Puerto Ricans themsevles both here in the USA & PR.
-Cuban: By Cubans in NJ & Miami.
-Colombian from the coast: By Colombians themselves.
Not to bore everyone, but I think most Dominicans here in the USA have experienced the same. Especially when they move out of the traditional enclaves. I have family that just moved to North Carolina, and I'm simply amused by all the far off nationalities they get mistaken for. Pakistanis, Indian, Arab, Mexican, and for those very ambiguous types they like one aunt of mine who was asked by an African American lady 'Are you black or white'?
Regarding Chopo, it is a word mostly used to describe someone:
a) Who is low class and/or poorly educated no manners, coarse etc.
b) Sometimes a segment of US Dominicans are generalized as Chopos (usually those of the thug/hip-hop influenced dress style)
We can go down the list, but I think you get the idea. No where is this term even implied to have anytype of color/racial connections. There are tons of 'white' or 'light' chopos running around. My Dominican barber who is half Italian and looks like a typical Spaniard was denied entry into a trendy club and was specifically told 'no Chopos wanted here'.