DR should be top dog

[jsizemore]

Small steady steps

The DR has an exotic air about that sucks you into the whole mood when around the people. If the DR could tap into the whole transshipment market then that is a another source of revenue that requires little extra in the way of infrastructure. Yes the jobs created would be mostly low skilled stevedore type of jobs but the employment would be steady. How many Dominican owned small businesses would be created to service the larger businesses? Ship Chandler, Small marine repair services, harbor pilots boats and many more. How long before the DR would have its own flagged merchant fleet with Dominican crews on board.
Bringing the DR economy up to a standard of competition would do just that Nal0whs. As far as detractors of globilization remember some of the same people that put down the Americanization of cultures are the same ones that say the US has obligations for assistance. As I have said assistance has a price.
John
Even though she is Columbian how many people can tell you who Shakira is?
Japanese Anima is a big hit amung the US kids today.

 

[KrackedKris]

Congratulations

I only support Dominican big business that tries and are expanding outside of the DR. Such expansion (depending on the type of business- manufacturing, services, etc) would create more job in the DR.

Sample: Rum Business

Expands into Europe and N. America. To produce more rum, it needs more molasses from Dominican fields. Those fields would need to employ more braceros (cane cutters) to cut the cane much faster, they will need to employ more truck drivers to transport the cane, they will need to employ more factory workers to convert the molasses into Rum at the factory, they will need to employ more internal accountants to keep track of things, more managers, more employees.

Repeat this scenerio with most other Dominican big business if they were to expand globally and that would help reduce unemployment first in the DR, and if the work force dries up in the process our neighbors (Haiti) could benefit as well!

That's the only type of the so called "Reagonomics" that I would support, one that would benefit the DR. I support anything that benefits the DR. However, I support Big Dominican businesses expanding abroad instead of expanding domestically, simply to give the small business owners in the DR a chance to taste the "entrepreneur" way of life. But I don't mind at all if Dominican companies make inroads in the globalized economy we have today.

I don't like the monoculture aspect of things, but globalization is here to stay and we can either complaint or embrace. I prefer to embrace it with a bias towards benefiting the DR.

A sensible answer (though I don't agree with the theroies, they are viable) without any US Bashing, I knew there was hope for you

 

[KrackedKris]

Enlighten me

The DR has an exotic air about that sucks you into the whole mood when around the people. If the DR could tap into the whole transshipment market then that is a another source of revenue that requires little extra in the way of infrastructure. Yes the jobs created would be mostly low skilled stevedore type of jobs but the employment would be steady. How many Dominican owned small businesses would be created to service the larger businesses? Ship Chandler, Small marine repair services, harbor pilots boats and many more. How long before the DR would have its own flagged merchant fleet with Dominican crews on board.
Bringing the DR economy up to a standard of competition would do just that Nal0whs. As far as detractors of globilization remember some of the same people that put down the Americanization of cultures are the same ones that say the US has obligations for assistance. As I have said assistance has a price.
John
Even though she is Columbian how many people can tell you who Shakira is?
Japanese Anima is a big hit amung the US kids today.

By "transshipment" I trust you mean sort of a "Hub" for shipping?

If so, please explain why goods would be shipped to the DR then transferred, and what and who (Beside the DR) would it benefiet??

 

[jsizemore]

yes hub

With the latest fears of homeland security on the US and the embargo that says any ship that has been to Cuba is banned from US ports for six month there is a certain oppertunity for becomeing a hub. Many goods are brought through the Panama canal that are then spit off into smaller shipments and reloaded in ports such as New York and so forth. The DR is in a natural location to take advantage of this.
I am looking at the Sinapore model and I feel the DR could do so in a smaller scale.
Who could benifit? What about every Island in the Caribbean that is too small to have a large cargo ship serve them. A hub in the DR could give another option to small frieghters in the 50 meter range serving weekly routes from the DR.
Long shorman make 60k plus a year in the US. OOPs here I go again. Labor cost in the DR would compete very well. The reality is the DR could take advantage of a service needing performed and at the same time generate revenue. Since all this would be is a shipping hub there would be a net gain for the DR rather than just money going out.
How many products from third countries go to the ports of New York, Miami, and Norfolk before hitting the Carribean Basin? How many ship loads of containers must be split up and relaoded on other ships prior to heading off to the new destination?
Castro will not live for ever. At some point in time in my lifetime Cuba is going to rebuild from everything. Whoever has the foot in the door first has the best chance. Havana may just be the port I am talking about in the Future.
John

 

[jsizemore]

goal

I make it no secret I am in the Navy. I am an enlisted cook so no I do not come from the great educational elite. I come from a family of successful business people and politicians which sort of seems contradictory. In my family it is a tradition to do one tour in the military for most of us. Some of us decide to stay and make a career of it. When ever I go to a port until recently I was allowed to go out alone. While everyone else went chasing skirts I always went to the cafes where Expats that were professionals went to.
I asked questions and I listened. I do not know all the ins and outs of a transshipment hub. I do not have the influence nor resources to make any kind of contribution. I do know however there are closet rich influential people on this board. I like the DR and I would like to see it become a rich country in my life time.
What I do know is there are people with the resources and knowledge that could make the idea work. So I will throw out some Ideas and see what debate comes out. Sure everyone can tear holes in my ideas. I enjoy seeing what people come up with. For every argument against something I say I have found that someone else has something to add that is constructive. I learn much from these boards. But more importantly I think is that some where some how someone may be lurking and watching or someone may do a search someday and say wait a minute. And take the idea and run with it. I read in some of the new age total quality management crap that 75% of all new innovations made are by outsiders looking in.
So take this for what you want but in the end if somebody out there takes one of my whacky ideas and makes a go with it and a couple of thousand Dominicans get a job where none existed haven't I did my part for economic aid?
John

 

[NALs]

Havana may just be the port I am talking about in the Future.
John

Historically, Havana has always taken opportunities away from Santo Domingo. This was no big deal since the reason for taking the opportunities was to ensure the survival of Spanish influence in the hemisphere.

An example would be during the early Colonial period (late 1400s, early 1500s), Santo Domingo was where all material heading from the New World to Europe were transhiped from. In fact, many of the Colonial Palaces (there were more, but many were destroyed with earthquakes, Hurricanes, and warfare) were built on profits of Trade. Then, after the French and then Haitians pose a real threat to the stability of Santo Domingo, the Spaniards moved their trade base to Havana, and that city became "The Pearl of the Caribbean" due to its many mansions and palaces.

It would be interesting to see such thing happen again, though it shouldn't if people learn from past experiences. But, if the DR gets in the foot first in this trade deal and then Havana takes it away. Though, I don't think Havana will take such position if the DR gets into it first because:

A) SDQ is much more centrally located in the Caribbean than Havana is, also SDQ faces the Caribbean Sea (quicker routes from the Canal to SDQ than HVN) and the mona passage is a stone throw away, allowing ships to come and go from the Atlantic ocean much quicker than going all the way to Havana.

B) If there is any trade route Havana could benefit from is any trade route entering or leaving the Gulf of Mexico. Of course, if Havana does gets into that market, Havana will be threatning the ports of Miami as a transhipment point for goods flowing in and out of the Gulf. For that reason, I don't think it would happen.

C) Once Cuba is liberated (either via war or Castro's death) it would probably be at the hands of the Americans. Under such case, Cuba's economy will be 100% opened up for foreign companies to come in and take control of the Cuban economy under the globalization deal. Due to that reason, Cuba will become dependent most likely on the US again and that would hamper any trade gains Cuba might try to get, because the bulk of the trade will be done between Havana and Miami.

 

[Criss Colon]

Come down to the DR and visit the port of Haina!!!!

Like every other aspect of dominican life,it is a corrupt,inefficient Zoo!You have to pay to get ANYTHING done! Ports all around the World are not noted for being the most "Lrgal" places,but you pay and it gets done,in the DR,you pay one person,nothing,you pay another,nothing,you pay another and STILL NOTHING!!!In most countries they know how to "Milk A Cow",here they "Kill The Cow",steal the meat,and then complain that there is no "MILK"! That is why your idea will never fly here!!CcCCCC

 

[Chirimoya]

In most countries they know how to "Milk A Cow",here they "Kill The Cow",steal the meat,and then complain that there is no "MILK"!

Classic. I love it!

Chiri

 

[KrackedKris]

Like every other aspect of dominican life,it is a corrupt,inefficient Zoo!You have to pay to get ANYTHING done! Ports all around the World are not noted for being the most "Lrgal" places,but you pay and it gets done,in the DR,you pay one person,nothing,you pay another,nothing,you pay another and STILL NOTHING!!!In most countries they know how to "Milk A Cow",here they "Kill The Cow",steal the meat,and then complain that there is no "MILK"! That is why your idea will never fly here!!CcCCCC

CC

The most poignant post I have read

 

[jsizemore]

Who says you need locals

While my experience is less than most here in relating to local Dominican unskilled labor I have a possible solution.
How many post do we read about wanting to move to the Dr and looking for a job? There are enough people who wish for work as expats that while would expect more than a local would get would still settle for less than stateside minimum wage and that would let you compete with the $22 an hour labor market.

 

[NALs]

While my experience is less than most here in relating to local Dominican unskilled labor I have a possible solution.
How many post do we read about wanting to move to the Dr and looking for a job? There are enough people who wish for work as expats that while would expect more than a local would get would still settle for less than stateside minimum wage and that would let you compete with the $22 an hour labor market.

I was thinking about that too. But some folks here truly want to help the locals by offering them a job position though.

 

[jsizemore]

mix the employees

If there were a mix of employees. And all employees were paid the same for work performed then the work ethic would be brought in. If the locals were paid a little more in the way of decent wage and had to compete with expats working for the same wage then they would have to perform. Also the myth of the rich gringo would be detroyed.
I realize that the amount of money would not bring in many Americans or Europeans do stevadore type work but there are enough people wanting to live int he DR that are willing to take the tourist jobs that make me think you could get a workforce of about 10% expats to mix in with the Dominicans. Then over a generation a little work ethic as expected by the outside world would emerge. In Russia the expats that do business say it is easier and cheaper to just pay the people a higher wage and hold them accoutnable than it is to pay them the normal local wage and try to keep them under your thumb. Maybe the same could be said for the DR. I don't know.
I realize I am dreaming and talking out my a** now but there may be ways someone smarter than myself would figure out.
John

 

[Criss Colon]

It Doesn't Take A "Rocket Scientist" To Figure This One Out!!!

If you want MY simple answer to why things don't work in the "Tropics"!
Or even if you Don't want it!!!!

"In COLD climates people worked or died! Got to plan and work ahead,or you freeze/starve to death in the winter!Only the smart survive!
In tropical climes, like the DR,you lay down under a palm tree when you are tired,pick a banana when you are hungry,and might wear a fig leaf to keep the "knats" off your balls,but not to keep you warm at night!

Fast foreward to the 18th,19th,and 20th centuries.People in the "Cold" climates are inventing things to make their lives more comfortable,while the people in the "Cold" countries are rolling over in their "Siestas'to get more comfortable!

Will "Global Warming" make people in formerly "Cold" climates lazy??
OR,will the next "Ice Age" make people in the formerly "Hot" climates smarter??

I'm betting on the "Status Quo"!!!!!!
You will NEVER go wrong by overestimating the underwhelming work ethic in the DR!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC :cheeky:

 

[JonX]

I dont like the attitude a lot of you people have towards Dominicans. No. A Dominican would not rather steal a peso than work for one. That is bullshit and its a generalized comment which is discriminating. With the status of the economy and the bi-monthly pay workers get here is not enough for anything! Maybe thats why many people want shortcuts! Everyone everywhere eventually gets tired of making shitty pay for working your *** off! If you think like this about Dominicans then stay out of the country! Thank you

 

[Criss Colon]

You Are Entitled To Your Opinion(No Matter How Flawed!),and I to Mine!

But unless you are an official with the Dominican Dept. of Immigration,you don't have the authority to deport me!
You CAN'T actually live here,do you???
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC :ermm:

 

[jsizemore]

Shipping

I was reading in Yahoo today about the six ships the US denied entry into port because the paperwork was not totally up to par.
Many shipping companies have European or Australian officers with Crews from the Philippines.
Considering the fact the US really does not have that large of a merchant fleet and most shipping is done by foreign flagged vessels I see this problem expanding.
The East Coast of the US transshipment points will become more and more of a bottleneck and many shipments will try to be routed through more accommodating ports.
As the president of the Unites States has said this is a multi generational war. The security controls will get increasingly stricter as time goes on. The Bureaucracy will feed itself and for job security reason the agencies will grow larger and more visible.
Soon there will be little or no Transshipment in US ports due to the craziness. The only shipping will be final destination and point of origin cargos.
The void will be filled. Whether the DR or Jamaica or Havana there will be a big transshipment hub set up in the Caribbean region outside the US. I feel it is just a matter of time.
The American Economy will adjust and stay strong. Regardless of what people think the US can handle drastic problems. It is the little problems we screw up with because we think they are so small it should not be a problem to get back to where we were.
John

 

[Formosano2000]

I think the difference is in the attitude towards money..

I always found it interesting that the asian owned businesses in the DR are very successful. It's the same in the US. In poor neighborhoods in LA, the Koreans own the liqour stores etc. And do very well. While few other minorities are opening businesses.
I know a lot of the free zone factories are Asian owned. A strong work ethic would solve a lot of problems. I don't think Dominicans are lazy. I know too many that work very hard. But most of them break their backs for other peoples success. They don't really want to start their own business.

I do not think Dominicans are lazy either. In fact, many work their butts off. Yet they struggle. Why ?

(Let's not discuss inflation, peso devalutions..other uncontrollable factors).

This is what I see on a weekly basis:

Each Sat, when paychecks are given out, our Dominican workers rush to cash them, buying drinks to get drunk, pay off part of their high-interest "fiao"..etc. By Monday, many are flat broke again. Then magically, "prestamitas" appear ready to offer shark loans. Our workers get loans to tide them over till Friday. The cycle keeps on and on and on....

Invariably, they will complain about medical bills, alimony to 1st wife, 2nd wife...etc, food for the kids...etc

But then again, they show up with Nike shoes, have DVD's at home. Big boomboxes to.

Bottom line, they never save money. So how are they supposed to start their own business ?

I bet if you ask them if they want to start their own company. They'll all say yes. But they will never dream of saving up for that. "P? que ??", they'll ask you. Better spend it on beer and disco.

Sad but true.

 

[NALs]

I do not think Dominicans are lazy either. In fact, many work their butts off. Yet they struggle. Why ?

(Let's not discuss inflation, peso devalutions..other uncontrollable factors).

This is what I see on a weekly basis:

Each Sat, when paychecks are given out, our Dominican workers rush to cash them, buying drinks to get drunk, pay off part of their high-interest "fiao"..etc. By Monday, many are flat broke again. Then magically, "prestamitas" appear ready to offer shark loans. Our workers get loans to tide them over till Friday. The cycle keeps on and on and on....

Invariably, they will complain about medical bills, alimony to 1st wife, 2nd wife...etc, food for the kids...etc

But then again, they show up with Nike shoes, have DVD's at home. Big boomboxes to.

Bottom line, they never save money. So how are they supposed to start their own business ?

I bet if you ask them if they want to start their own company. They'll all say yes. But they will never dream of saving up for that. "P? que ??", they'll ask you. Better spend it on beer and disco.

Sad but true.

That's the difference between a lower class Dominican and a upper class and middle class Dominican. In fact, those lower class Dominican who began to implement a savings habit, actually made it into the middle class during the 1990s! Those that save, prosper!

However, I must say that working hard doesn't always yields riches. I know people (people that I say hi on the street that is) that literally break their backs working and yet they are poor. I know some folks that really try to become "rich" in a way they think is right, and yet they remain poor or lower middle class. The truth is that becoming rich has nothing to do with how hard a person works. Its all in the brain. Its all about how smart you work. If a person works with logic and not thinking about the money too much, the riches will come. If that same person simply works hard all week and only is thinking on the check at the end of the week, the riches will not come quickly. That is just a fact.

Many people say, well what about those people that work hard and become rich? The truth is that a person that simply works hard won't get rich. A person that works hard and smart, will eventually become rich and eventually when the largest amounts of riches flow into his/her hands he/she would find that working hard is not really necessary all the time at that point, because the money would simply keep flowing.

The next time you guys see a Dominican who is broke, start a conversation with him/her about that subject, but don't end the conversation until you mention that even rich people have a budget. Believe it or not.

 

[jsizemore]

Don't paint everyone

I come from a culture in the US that could be transplanted to the DR and with a language change fit right in. When ever my mother tries to hire the out of work 20 and 30 year old men that have familys she better hope it is not hunting season or the fish are not biting.
When a 29 year old woman hands a book of food stamps the her aunt to buy the food for a wedding reception, we wonder does anyone have pride left.
Many of us as Gringos interact with Dominicans that if the were in the US we would consider trailer park trash.
I normally do not respond nor add anything if I agree with Nal0ws. My responses to any of his post are usually to make a counter point. In this case I feel I should agree. We should not paint all Dominicans with the same brush because we hang out with the trailer trash.
In my profession I place my life, property, and integrity in the hands of Dominicans all the time.
John

 

[Formosano2000]

Education, I think.

I don't know enough about the Asian examples to see if they back up my arguments but I would be interested in hearing about this from Formosano and co.

Chiri

I cannot speak for all Asians as Asia itself is much more diverse than Latin America. However, I'll share what I have observed so far.

Among Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese and Singaporeans, I've noticed a cult-like devotion to eduction. You can bet that all decent parents would give up their last penny for their kids to go to the best possible school that their money can afford and that their kids can qualify. There is this belief that while money comes and goes, eduction is permanently ingrained into your mind once you obtain it. It will allow you to climb social and economic ladders that not even "proper connections" can.

(A perfect example is the current Taiwanese president who was born into a certified poor barrio in rual Taiwan but graduated cum laude at the top law school, thus opening up his political career. )

Of course, not all educted people are equal. There are plenty of highly-educated bums, criminals, officials...etc. Nothing new here. But these Asian countries that prize education mostly have seen their standard of living significantly elevated in the past 30 years.

What I find most impressive is the extend parents are willing to sacrifice for their kids' future. They will not take vacation, not dine out, get multiple jobs, recycle old cothing...basically anything it takes to send their kids to a school. They are willing to die poor so their kids have a chance to be rich. This is a very powerful incentive for kids themselves not to complain how hard school is, how much homework is...etc because they know their "harship" is nothing compared to parents' sacrifice.

Of course, the kids are gonna rebel at one point or another because they were pushed to excel from day one. My parents pushed me to take piano lessons before I could even write ! I hated every minute of it as a kid ! But I certainly know whom to thank when I performed to a full house in my high school. The thing though is that education is a slow and arduous process and the results are not seen for years.

Asian parents are not saints. If you take a more cynical view, you can say that they see their kids as investments and trophies to show off. And they reap both financial and psychological benefits from their kids' success. Many folks of my grandparents's age are millionaires not because they earned it on jobs but because of their grateful and successful kids. So this is a sort of reverse "trickle-down" theory in practice in that (eventually) rich kids make their (previously) poor parents rich.

I notice that Dominican parents who do this much for their kids are by and large already well-off so it really isn't that much sacrifice. I don't see however, that many poor and struggling parents doing the same though. It pains me to see many parents that would indulge in beers, salons and other trivials when their money could really go to further their kids' eduction here.

I don't think it's a matter of simple right or wrong. Come to think of it, I think it's a priority issue. Them first, kids afterwards. I'm curious to know what sort of answers I could get by asking locals " Are you willing to be poor for 30 years now so your subsequent 30 years MAY be rich because of your successful kids ?" But I think I know the answer already