Thank you very much for all this invaluable information Alfredo. It will indeed be interesting to see what happens next. I wonder if it is acceptable for the clinics and hospitals to decide their own policies or whether an official letter would be enough to 're-educate' them! If Alfredo can obtain a list of locations where female donors are acceptable, I'm sure it would make interesting reading. I also wonder, at the same time if it would be possible for Alfredo to obtain a list of any other exclusions to giving blood (piercings, tattoos etc). Sorry to 'put upon' you Alfredo, but you seem to be the one with the 'contacts'. Thank very much.
- Thread starter Sharlene
- Start date
DR1 Blood Donor Register
- Status
Perhaps many of you also need YOUR consciousness of the DR raised.
I was a multiple-gallon donor to the Red Cross in the US. One screening question always asked by the Red Cross there was "have you ever had sexual relations with a prostitute (sex professional) ? If answered in the affirmative, you were not acceptable as a donor.
Perhaps you are bashing the Dominican health industry without knowing what they know. Perhaps it is a normal sexual practice for many, or the majority of dominicanas, to have sex with multiple partners without using condoms. Perhaps it is normal for many Dominican males to have multiple sexual partners without benefit of condoms.
Maybe the health facilities here in the DR cannot afford to test for the many blood infections that would be necessary to test blood donors here, such as HIV, Hepatitis A, Hepatitis b, Hepatitis C, etc.... which leads to a shortage of donors and blood when needed.
How many folks here on DR1 have had sex with a professional sex worker (knowingly or unknowingly) ? Can all potential donors here show recent positive proof that they are not infected with any of the above?
Just another good thing to think about before you allow someone to pump someone else's blood into your body. I think that I would prefer to bleed out right now before going through years of problems and dying a slow death from liver failure or AIDS. Or before that, chartering a plane to evacuate to Puerto Rico or Miami. Sorry, I don't know your health history, and really prefer not to.
I was a multiple-gallon donor to the Red Cross in the US. One screening question always asked by the Red Cross there was "have you ever had sexual relations with a prostitute (sex professional) ? If answered in the affirmative, you were not acceptable as a donor.
Perhaps you are bashing the Dominican health industry without knowing what they know. Perhaps it is a normal sexual practice for many, or the majority of dominicanas, to have sex with multiple partners without using condoms. Perhaps it is normal for many Dominican males to have multiple sexual partners without benefit of condoms.
Maybe the health facilities here in the DR cannot afford to test for the many blood infections that would be necessary to test blood donors here, such as HIV, Hepatitis A, Hepatitis b, Hepatitis C, etc.... which leads to a shortage of donors and blood when needed.
How many folks here on DR1 have had sex with a professional sex worker (knowingly or unknowingly) ? Can all potential donors here show recent positive proof that they are not infected with any of the above?
Just another good thing to think about before you allow someone to pump someone else's blood into your body. I think that I would prefer to bleed out right now before going through years of problems and dying a slow death from liver failure or AIDS. Or before that, chartering a plane to evacuate to Puerto Rico or Miami. Sorry, I don't know your health history, and really prefer not to.
If your hypothesis held up, GringoCarlos, I think it would be safe to assume that at least a similar proportion of males had unprotected sex as females (working on the basis that it takes 2 (or more) to tango). So exclusion of women on gender alone wouldn't appear to deal with that. In any event the letter from the Director of the National Blood Programme says women aren't excluded on gender alone.
I don't think anyone is 'bashing' the Dominican health industry. What we're trying to do is to find out whether it is either policy or practice that women are excluded (based on the examples and evidence cited earlier in this thead & which I won't repeat). Donations are screened btw starting with PCV for haematocrit level before a donation is even taken - see post 23.
One way of testing the validity in practice of Dr. Socrates E. Sosa Pe?a's letter might be for a potential DR1 female donor to PM Alfredo for a copy of the original email, print it out & take it with you when you go to donate & if refused, ask why & if the reason given is because you are female, show the letter. Any takers?
I don't think anyone is 'bashing' the Dominican health industry. What we're trying to do is to find out whether it is either policy or practice that women are excluded (based on the examples and evidence cited earlier in this thead & which I won't repeat). Donations are screened btw starting with PCV for haematocrit level before a donation is even taken - see post 23.
One way of testing the validity in practice of Dr. Socrates E. Sosa Pe?a's letter might be for a potential DR1 female donor to PM Alfredo for a copy of the original email, print it out & take it with you when you go to donate & if refused, ask why & if the reason given is because you are female, show the letter. Any takers?
FYI, here are the guidelines used by the American Red Cross for blood donor eligibility:
American Red Cross
American Red Cross
I do not believe that any of the posters on this thread had any intention of 'bashing' the Dominican Health Industry! This thread was started with purely good intentions and with a view to us all being able to assist each other. Unfortunately, along the way, it was found that there were obstacles to that aim, one of them being that women were allegedly being refused the chance to donate blood. The Dominican Health Industry wasn't criticized as such. The main quest became to find out why women were being omitted from the blood donation programme and how to overcome the obstacles being put before them.
The question of screening and sexual history was asked many times in the original blood donor thread entitled 'Let's Hope We Never Need Blood' started by Whirleybird. As Lambada has said, donations do appear to be screened, even prior to donation. I think comments such as:-
....should be treated with the contempt that they deserve. I know many respectable Dominican women who would be disgusted that the 'majority' of the women of this country are being spoken about this way. Perhaps men whose only experience of the women of this country is through the sex industry might think like this! I can't believe that somebody would truly believe that this may be the reason why women may be excluded from giving blood....
The question of screening and sexual history was asked many times in the original blood donor thread entitled 'Let's Hope We Never Need Blood' started by Whirleybird. As Lambada has said, donations do appear to be screened, even prior to donation. I think comments such as:-
....should be treated with the contempt that they deserve. I know many respectable Dominican women who would be disgusted that the 'majority' of the women of this country are being spoken about this way. Perhaps men whose only experience of the women of this country is through the sex industry might think like this! I can't believe that somebody would truly believe that this may be the reason why women may be excluded from giving blood....
Dear Sharlene and everyone else, it is not my intent to belittle dominican women, or you either. (and if you had read the next line in my previous post, I made the SAME point about dominican MEN). I am simply trying to make a point - does anyone here know the people here on DR1 well enough to ask them for blood?
As for facts, I'm no expert, and I don't trust the internet, but here are some things put out by organizations like USAID, World Health Organization, etc:
The incidence of Hepatitis B in the DR = 4%. In the US it is 0.5%. In the UK, it is 0.3%.
The incidence of Hepatitis C in the DR is 2.4%. In the US it is 1.8%. In the UK, it is just 0.02%. Congratulations, UK.
The DR has an incidence of HIV of 1,036 of every 100,000 population. In Haiti, it is 3,377 per 100,000. Approximately 1 of 8 people in the DR are from Haiti.
The DR has the 3rd highest # of years of life lost (from the life expectancy figures) to communicable diseases in the western hemisphere, surpassed only by Haiti and Guatemala. Most of these diseases are passed by blood or by sexual contact.
For dominican males aged 15 to 24, 52 % of males used a condom in their last high-risk sex act.
For dominican females aged 15 to 24, 29 % of females used a condom in their last high-risk sex act.
Sorry Sharlene, these numbers DO look to me like "many" (and for females in this age group )- the "majority" of dominicans in this age group. Maybe your friends are goody two-shoes, or maybe they don't really know their daughters as well as they think either.
Dominicans aged 15 to 24 represent about 14% of the country's population.
(Look under the heading "HIV AIDS" , near the end of this category, for this 6 year study)
UNICEF - At a glance: Dominican Republic - Statistics
---------------------
As estimated by the Dominican government's Women's ministry, there are an estimated 100,000 dominicans in the DR working as sex workers. They ( and their experts) estimate that this industry is supported by 1,000,000 clients.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC PRESENTS FIFTH PERIODIC REPORT ON EFFORTS TO COMPLY WITH WOMEN’S ANTI-DISCRIMINATION CONVENTION
---------------------
In a study done of the sex industry, 25% of sex workers say they NEVER use a condom with their clients. See Page 10 here>>
http://pdf.dec.org/pdf_docs/PNACW975.pdf
------------------------
Lambada "QUOTE": "Women are excluded from donating: any age, all women. Of course I asked why & was told donations from women cause a lot of problems 'Women get a lot of headaches' she said. Didn't exactly sound like a scientific explanation to me, but she's the doctor & I'm not." ENDQUOTE -
Lambada, are you sure that your doctor friend in Puerta Plata did not actually say or mean to say "Women GIVE (us) a lot of headaches"? (as donors), but somehow got lost in translation? Could this refer to a higher percentage of females with blood problems which would exclude them from donating blood in Puerto Plata?
----------------------
Various quotes from Sharlene:
QUOTE
"Well Lambada now appears to have uncovered the main reason for the blood shortages... I am shocked and appalled that women are excluded from giving blood."
---So you're blaming the hospitals refusal to accept women as donors as a "Sexist plot", when it may actually have a medical or historical basis for implementation??
QUOTE
"The recipient of the appeal, had MANY people coming forward and after paying for those people to be separated out into those that were suitable etc, the end cost of 8 pints of blood was $1800! It would appear that the cost of the blood and the 'screening' of donors process doesn't appear to be covered by medical insurance....."
---So you think that Dominican health insurance coverage should be just like good old socialistic England or Canada, and "free" to the recipient? Why do you think that health insurance premiums here in the DR are about 5% of the cost of that in "civilized" countries? And, apparently you think that $1800 is excessive for 8 pints of blood? Probably sounds very cheap to the person who received it...
QUOTE
"I guess a strategy requires careful thought and consideration, given the current situation..... I guess the first thing to do is to find out the real reason why women aren't allowed to donate and who exactly is responsible for that decision so we can see what we're 'up against' in the quest to 'raise consciousness'...."
---I am only attempting to raise YOUR consciousness that maybe, just maybe, the medical folks here in the DR may not be quite as ignorant or sexist as you would lead us to believe...
Sorry Sharlene, but this sounds like a bit of bashing to me, of Dominican clinic policies, Dominican doctor's attitudes and DR health insurance. That to me IS the Dominican Health Industry.
-------------------
I am still waiting for AZB, a widely known DR1er who also happens to be a medical professional and also a man-about-Santiago, about HIS thoughts on this, but maybe he is too busy snapping photos of pretty girls to see this thread.
Hillbilly also has many friends and sources in the medical community and may be able to shed some light on this attitude. And where oh where is ECH??
Sharlene, I am not attempting to tell you that this is a bad idea, but am just playing devil's advocate to consider the implications. No, I am no whoremonger, or a sex tourist. I live a boring life in Santo Domingo, as evidenced by my too-long posts here on DR1. (but also considering that 98% of my friends here in the DR are Dominican middle-class males, and I hear their stories, then maybe some of your dominicana friends would be shocked to know the truth too)
I also know that DR1ers are not all Puritans, and for you to consider that asking for blood here may be no different than standing along the waterfront in any Dominican town and asking for blood donations - it may be no safer here!
As for facts, I'm no expert, and I don't trust the internet, but here are some things put out by organizations like USAID, World Health Organization, etc:
The incidence of Hepatitis B in the DR = 4%. In the US it is 0.5%. In the UK, it is 0.3%.
The incidence of Hepatitis C in the DR is 2.4%. In the US it is 1.8%. In the UK, it is just 0.02%. Congratulations, UK.
The DR has an incidence of HIV of 1,036 of every 100,000 population. In Haiti, it is 3,377 per 100,000. Approximately 1 of 8 people in the DR are from Haiti.
The DR has the 3rd highest # of years of life lost (from the life expectancy figures) to communicable diseases in the western hemisphere, surpassed only by Haiti and Guatemala. Most of these diseases are passed by blood or by sexual contact.
For dominican males aged 15 to 24, 52 % of males used a condom in their last high-risk sex act.
For dominican females aged 15 to 24, 29 % of females used a condom in their last high-risk sex act.
Sorry Sharlene, these numbers DO look to me like "many" (and for females in this age group )- the "majority" of dominicans in this age group. Maybe your friends are goody two-shoes, or maybe they don't really know their daughters as well as they think either.
Dominicans aged 15 to 24 represent about 14% of the country's population.
(Look under the heading "HIV AIDS" , near the end of this category, for this 6 year study)
UNICEF - At a glance: Dominican Republic - Statistics
---------------------
As estimated by the Dominican government's Women's ministry, there are an estimated 100,000 dominicans in the DR working as sex workers. They ( and their experts) estimate that this industry is supported by 1,000,000 clients.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC PRESENTS FIFTH PERIODIC REPORT ON EFFORTS TO COMPLY WITH WOMEN’S ANTI-DISCRIMINATION CONVENTION
---------------------
In a study done of the sex industry, 25% of sex workers say they NEVER use a condom with their clients. See Page 10 here>>
http://pdf.dec.org/pdf_docs/PNACW975.pdf
------------------------
Lambada "QUOTE": "Women are excluded from donating: any age, all women. Of course I asked why & was told donations from women cause a lot of problems 'Women get a lot of headaches' she said. Didn't exactly sound like a scientific explanation to me, but she's the doctor & I'm not." ENDQUOTE -
Lambada, are you sure that your doctor friend in Puerta Plata did not actually say or mean to say "Women GIVE (us) a lot of headaches"? (as donors), but somehow got lost in translation? Could this refer to a higher percentage of females with blood problems which would exclude them from donating blood in Puerto Plata?
----------------------
Various quotes from Sharlene:
QUOTE
"Well Lambada now appears to have uncovered the main reason for the blood shortages... I am shocked and appalled that women are excluded from giving blood."
---So you're blaming the hospitals refusal to accept women as donors as a "Sexist plot", when it may actually have a medical or historical basis for implementation??
QUOTE
"The recipient of the appeal, had MANY people coming forward and after paying for those people to be separated out into those that were suitable etc, the end cost of 8 pints of blood was $1800! It would appear that the cost of the blood and the 'screening' of donors process doesn't appear to be covered by medical insurance....."
---So you think that Dominican health insurance coverage should be just like good old socialistic England or Canada, and "free" to the recipient? Why do you think that health insurance premiums here in the DR are about 5% of the cost of that in "civilized" countries? And, apparently you think that $1800 is excessive for 8 pints of blood? Probably sounds very cheap to the person who received it...
QUOTE
"I guess a strategy requires careful thought and consideration, given the current situation..... I guess the first thing to do is to find out the real reason why women aren't allowed to donate and who exactly is responsible for that decision so we can see what we're 'up against' in the quest to 'raise consciousness'...."
---I am only attempting to raise YOUR consciousness that maybe, just maybe, the medical folks here in the DR may not be quite as ignorant or sexist as you would lead us to believe...
Sorry Sharlene, but this sounds like a bit of bashing to me, of Dominican clinic policies, Dominican doctor's attitudes and DR health insurance. That to me IS the Dominican Health Industry.
-------------------
I am still waiting for AZB, a widely known DR1er who also happens to be a medical professional and also a man-about-Santiago, about HIS thoughts on this, but maybe he is too busy snapping photos of pretty girls to see this thread.
Hillbilly also has many friends and sources in the medical community and may be able to shed some light on this attitude. And where oh where is ECH??
Sharlene, I am not attempting to tell you that this is a bad idea, but am just playing devil's advocate to consider the implications. No, I am no whoremonger, or a sex tourist. I live a boring life in Santo Domingo, as evidenced by my too-long posts here on DR1. (but also considering that 98% of my friends here in the DR are Dominican middle-class males, and I hear their stories, then maybe some of your dominicana friends would be shocked to know the truth too)
I also know that DR1ers are not all Puritans, and for you to consider that asking for blood here may be no different than standing along the waterfront in any Dominican town and asking for blood donations - it may be no safer here!
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Tell you what, GringoCarlos, why don't you call the good doctor at Ricardo Limardo and ask her what she 'meant' to say? I can only tell you what she actually said. I wouldn't want to diminish her abilities to say what she means by speculating that she meant something different.........that could be perceived as 'bashing' and I'm not into that.
Fascinating post GringoCarlos - full of very useful info and insight. It is obvious that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes!
Excellent food for thought in terms of how to fix the situation! Maybe the answer is for each of us to start stockpiling our own blood in case we need it!
Excellent food for thought in terms of how to fix the situation! Maybe the answer is for each of us to start stockpiling our own blood in case we need it!
There is a lot in your post to cogitate. This one comment however is not fair. This thread has been speculating about the why's and the wherefore's and has, to my knowledge, up to now, not gone into the sphere of 'blame', but rather into the sphere of trying to find a good set of facts that make sense.
If you look earlier, you'll see me speculating about a social/historical, even religious cause for this blood thing. It would be fascinating to get an answer on that, but there is no blame here.
(And for good measure
I don't believe any of the women in this thread is a great risk for blood transmitted diseases)Dear GringoCArlos
Thank you for all the information that you've provided. Unfortunately, you've stockpiled all the possible problems and remained very critical of the blood donor register idea without actually attempting to provide any solutions whatsoever. This was in complete contrast to Alfredo who provided us with invaluable information even though the problem didn't pertain directly to him. I'd be very interested to know what your suggestions are for anybody involved in an accident that needs an emergency transfusion using all this 'tainted' Dominican and expat blood that you mention. I thought it had been established that the blood here is screened quite thoroughly, so I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make with all your statistics.
Have you yet taken the time to read the previous blood donor thread that I mentioned? You will see that I asked lots of times about whether screening was carried out and made comments about not knowing the sexual histories of other people on DR1 (or anybody else for that matter) so it's not 'ground breaking' news that you're imparting to us. I actually originally questioned the usefulness of a blood donor register and was 'sold' on the idea by the other participants of that thread. HB did actually participate in that thread, so I assume he's aware of this one. I too always value his input in these matters.
The reason that I mentioned that the blood was not included in the cost of health insurance was to highlight it to people with health insurance who may not be aware of that fact (these message boards are to help people right?). I also mentioned the cost, because I feel that it is a lot of money for the average person, particularly if one is unprepared (or unable) to pay this money out. I'm somewhat confused by your comments because there was never any mention of comparing the health insurance in this country with that of any other or of saying that $1800 was 'excessive' for 8 pints of blood.
I'm also very confused by your mention of me accusing the hospitals of a 'sexist plot' because of their refusal to allow women to donate blood. I have never used this expression in my life, so I don't know where you've conjured it up from. I was shocked and appalled that women weren't allowed to donate blood and I don't understand what's wrong with saying so? What should I have said instead?
You also state that I'm trying to lead you into believing that the doctors in the DR are ignorant and sexist! I have not used either of those words or given any indication of that, so again, I'm at a loss to understand your misinterpretation of my posts. I talk about the quest to find out why women aren't allowed to donate and to find out who is responsible for the decision prior to making any firm decisions about an attempt to raise consciousness.
I'm sorry if your impression is that I'm bashing the clinic policies, doctors' attitudes and health insurance here in the DR, because that was never my intention. To be honest, I wish I'd never started this thread now. Unlike you, I don't have lots of time on my hands, having two young children to attend to, so I have to grab time here and there to post on these boards. It's just typical that you try put together something that may help people....and you end up being accused of 'bashing' the DR health industry as a whole!
What I do know is that I, as a mother, would like the opportunity to be able to donate blood to my child if necessary and up until now I have been shocked and appalled that I (and thousands of other mothers) may appear to be denied that opportunity. And, by the way, I had an HIV test with my last pregnancy (standard in the UK) and it was negative and I have no reason to suppose that that's changed....OK!
Thank you for all the information that you've provided. Unfortunately, you've stockpiled all the possible problems and remained very critical of the blood donor register idea without actually attempting to provide any solutions whatsoever. This was in complete contrast to Alfredo who provided us with invaluable information even though the problem didn't pertain directly to him. I'd be very interested to know what your suggestions are for anybody involved in an accident that needs an emergency transfusion using all this 'tainted' Dominican and expat blood that you mention. I thought it had been established that the blood here is screened quite thoroughly, so I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make with all your statistics.
Have you yet taken the time to read the previous blood donor thread that I mentioned? You will see that I asked lots of times about whether screening was carried out and made comments about not knowing the sexual histories of other people on DR1 (or anybody else for that matter) so it's not 'ground breaking' news that you're imparting to us. I actually originally questioned the usefulness of a blood donor register and was 'sold' on the idea by the other participants of that thread. HB did actually participate in that thread, so I assume he's aware of this one. I too always value his input in these matters.
The reason that I mentioned that the blood was not included in the cost of health insurance was to highlight it to people with health insurance who may not be aware of that fact (these message boards are to help people right?). I also mentioned the cost, because I feel that it is a lot of money for the average person, particularly if one is unprepared (or unable) to pay this money out. I'm somewhat confused by your comments because there was never any mention of comparing the health insurance in this country with that of any other or of saying that $1800 was 'excessive' for 8 pints of blood.
I'm also very confused by your mention of me accusing the hospitals of a 'sexist plot' because of their refusal to allow women to donate blood. I have never used this expression in my life, so I don't know where you've conjured it up from. I was shocked and appalled that women weren't allowed to donate blood and I don't understand what's wrong with saying so? What should I have said instead?
You also state that I'm trying to lead you into believing that the doctors in the DR are ignorant and sexist! I have not used either of those words or given any indication of that, so again, I'm at a loss to understand your misinterpretation of my posts. I talk about the quest to find out why women aren't allowed to donate and to find out who is responsible for the decision prior to making any firm decisions about an attempt to raise consciousness.
I'm sorry if your impression is that I'm bashing the clinic policies, doctors' attitudes and health insurance here in the DR, because that was never my intention. To be honest, I wish I'd never started this thread now. Unlike you, I don't have lots of time on my hands, having two young children to attend to, so I have to grab time here and there to post on these boards. It's just typical that you try put together something that may help people....and you end up being accused of 'bashing' the DR health industry as a whole!
What I do know is that I, as a mother, would like the opportunity to be able to donate blood to my child if necessary and up until now I have been shocked and appalled that I (and thousands of other mothers) may appear to be denied that opportunity. And, by the way, I had an HIV test with my last pregnancy (standard in the UK) and it was negative and I have no reason to suppose that that's changed....OK!
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Hang in there, Sharlene. When a thread starts becoming a bit argumentative it gets a lot of hits (I believe it's called 'blood lust'
Chris can probably tell us the correct term) so this could all be to the good. More hits=possibility of more ideas=possibility of more people prepared to ask questions of their hospitals & clinics in DR=more work to eventual solution of the issue .Just to reiterate: we need more people to ask the question of their local clinics/hospitals whether women are excluded as a group. If not, good. If they are then this info needs to be communicated to the Director of the National Blood Programme Dr. Socrates E. Sosa Pe?a, because he IS the Director and he says women as a group aren't excluded and we know this thanks to Alfredo Hidalgo's initiative.
Feel I should be whistling Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life for Python fans..................
Think between us we have opened a bit of a "hornets nest" here but rightly so. None of us want to be in the unfortunate position of needing a blood transfusion but, surely we need to consider the possibilities if we or our loved ones are unfortunate enough to be in that situation at some time. Some of the helpful advice here on this thread is invaluable so why, oh why, do some people always have to be so negative. Perhaps we need a bit of that "Dominican optimism" married to our ability to make things happen. I can understand Sharlene's feelings of wishing she never started this thread but she only picked up on my comment of "Let's hope we never need blood" which I felt after hearing of someone who needed 8 pints and was told it was unavailable! Sharlene started a sensible and positive thread here which, in some areas, has deteriorated into her being slighted and criticised for her concern in all our interests. Surely we should all be aiming for something which is beneficial to all....
A Positive
Estrella1 (Estrella) - Puerto Plata
la flaca (Denise) - Santiago
MikeFisher - Punta Cana
A Negative
Gini - Cabrera (since next mid-september
O Positive
Whirleybird (Shirley) - near Sabaneta
Whirleybird's Partner (Charlie) - near Sabaneta
Linda Stapleton - Between Cabarete and Sosua
O Negative
Sharlene - Sosua
adrianb - Santiago
beeza (Alex) - Cabarete
sabra - Cabarete
-----------------
cvan't believe that this list is so short.
is the rest on the bord bloodless
or do they just not wanna pass on some additionals in the blood?, ha ha
c'on guys
Mike
Estrella1 (Estrella) - Puerto Plata
la flaca (Denise) - Santiago
MikeFisher - Punta Cana
A Negative
Gini - Cabrera (since next mid-september
O Positive
Whirleybird (Shirley) - near Sabaneta
Whirleybird's Partner (Charlie) - near Sabaneta
Linda Stapleton - Between Cabarete and Sosua
O Negative
Sharlene - Sosua
adrianb - Santiago
beeza (Alex) - Cabarete
sabra - Cabarete
-----------------
cvan't believe that this list is so short.
is the rest on the bord bloodless
or do they just not wanna pass on some additionals in the blood?, ha ha
c'on guys
Mike
Would love to but.............I'm disbarred due to age :ermm:. Btw, Sharlene is no longer in the DR.
- Status