"Forget tourism" and new "facts" on DR history

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Luperon

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the gorgon said:
so now you get to decide whether or not i can ask a simple question? you mean guys get to express ideas which i find to be questionable, and i have to just shut up until i get permission to speak?
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Ok. Good idea
 
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Fulano2

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the gorgon said:
so now you get to decide whether or not i can ask a simple question? you mean guys get to express ideas which i find to be questionable, and i have to just shut up until i get permission to speak?
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Yes you ask a question and then stop reasoning. Strange.
 
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KyleMackey

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Cdn_Gringo said:
For the period that I have been on this planet, the issue of colourism was predominantly confined to the USA and South Africa. With the end of apartheid it is hard to overlook that it is the only the Americans who remain "obsessed" with this issue today (or those who have adopted the American condition as their own). The history of the USA seems to be an insurmountable obstacle that the society cannot move past.

Some other countries certainly have their own sensibilities and are not completely without fault, but those societies do not share the same degree of preoccupation with their past. Time and understanding heals all wounds, if one allows that process to advance.

Haiti and the DR are unique in some respects. Two poor colonial countries sharing a finite land mass. Modern times sees one side having made out better than the other. In any group of people, there tends to be that fifth wheel that is allowed to chum around with the group to some extent but is not viewed as a complete equal or a full member of the group. Often this stems from an inability to bring to the table the same degree of resources, wealth, or acumen. The kid with the "uncool" bike is always the one who gets picked on and belittled by the rest of the neighborhood group of kids but is still permitted hang with them.

Haiti has nothing to bring to the table that is of value to DR society as a whole. Haiti is now and for a long time has been a country of people perceived to be a drain on DR resources having squandered their own and a burden that takes away from what Dominicans perceive to be their just rewards for having prospered over time. I'm not convinced that the negative views of Haitians held by Dominicans is necessarily a belief that those people are inherently flawed but more of a belief that they en mass will be the undoing of the Dominican Republic if the two cultures are not kept separated; So that the haves do not lose their political power of self determination if there was to be a significant shift in demographics. The belief that Haitians as a whole are a threat means that individual Haitians inherit those same qualities in one on one relationships with Dominicans who still see their own path to continuing future prosperity in question.

Some Haitians permitted to work menial jobs is ok, but not too many. Giving birth in the DR does not automatically bestow citizenship upon the child giving him/her a toe hold in this country. I believe that Dominicans believe that Haitians will do to the DR what they have done to their own country if given the opportunity, so that opportunity is withheld, not because Haitians are inherently inferior or biologically flawed, but because they represent a perceived threat to the Dominican way of life. It is not as though Haiti can offer the average Dominican anything over and above what they have now.
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It exists all over the place, a bunch of countries in Africa, India, SE Asia, E. Asia etc.
 
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carlos

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Fulano2 and Luperon - bring it down a notch. Infractions given.

Gorgon - you can't have it both ways. If there is a subject that you say you can't discuss then it is best not to pose questions that will take you down that very same subject. It is best to refrain from getting involved.


Now let's get back on subject or this thread will be closed.
 
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Cdn_Gringo

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In this instance we are not discussing persecution or hindrance based on political or religious grounds (Palestine/Israel, India et al). We are trying to have a discussion on a topic that is generally not allowed so we must tread very carefully. With respect to Haiti and the DR I put forward the notion that the discrimination is not the same as is evidenced in other cultures.

I believe the anti-Haitian sentiments in the DR have very little to with the R word as we define it and over use it, but more to do with a distrust in the Haitians that they will not do to the DR what they have done to their own country and the unwillingness of Dominicans to gamble on the outcome of what would amount to a social experiment that they would be unable to control or reverse if it went awry.

The DR goes further into debt each year. With it's limited financial resources, primarily tied to tourism, the DR cannot afford to absorb the costs of integrating large numbers of the other country who would surly seize the opportunity to relocate if it was ever offered. Thus, the idea that Haitians en-mass are bad is what is offered up as the consensus opinion. Not that individual Haitians are bad, or genetically inferior, or too dark skinned for their own good, which is how I define the sweeping generalization that we aren't supposed to be talking about, so I'll just call it discrimination.

Those cultures that are still obsessed with their own pasts and have been unsuccessful at reconciliation in over 100 years are usually the ones that can't see past their own notions and see that the situation elsewhere is not necessarily the same as their own realities.

If Haiti were able to get an economy going, provide employment for most of its citizens, develop medical and educational infrastructure and basically begin to act like a real country I think the Dominican attitude would soften as it became clear that there is just as much on offer for Haitians in their own country as there is in the DR. Currently, the DR has a siege mentality and the day that tens of thousands of Haitians decide that today is the day they go "walk about" in the DR is the day that the DR's nightmare will come true. Many Haitians are truly desperate and getting more so as time passes. The fear of being overrun among Dominicans is palpable and not without merit. The DR hasn't enough money and they have no way to stop a mass migration if one were to spontaneously occur.
 
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Caonabo

Guest
mountainannie said:
Mods - I may be taking this thread into Off Topic - perhaps touching on racism? perhaps Verbotten? Delete if needed.

My own opinion piece - as an American White woman who was in the DR as a journalist for 14 years...

Not meant to offend the sensibilities of Dominicans - Not meant to judge

Simply giving my observations - as close as I can get to what I saw as the reality on the ground --
It is, as said, an opinion piece. Not only that - it is clearly written by someone raised in America - with a US perspective on "racism" and "colorist". There are certainly both in the DR - despite the fact that it is one to the most "blended" places that probably exists in this hemisphere. Anyone who denies this simply has not read the classifieds which call for "buena presncia" or do not know what that means - has not picked up the SD Glossy Magazines to see that there is a Color Bar beyond which the pictures do not appear, has not been to a restaurant in the Nato/Piantini section with a very Dark Skinned Dominican/or Haitian as an escort..Has not heard about Pelo Malo vs Peso Bueno nor seen the pictures of such on the milk cartons given out in public schools.

I do not wish to open as discussion as to whether or not the Dominicans are "racists" since I honestly belive that the vast majority are not - in that they do not belive that "whites" are superior to "blacks" - they may... No one can see into another persons hearts.

But what is a Reality on the Island - which is only one of 7 divided islands in the world - is that there is a nation of 10 or 11 million persons of Extreme Poverty living in an environmentally degraded nation, which has not managed to become self governing despite 200 years of independence - Pressing against a population of 10 or 11 million persons who are about 50% themselves in poverty. The line that Dominicans hold against Haitians - against giving them "citizenship" status and papers - is so that they will not form a voting block inside the Dominican Republic. Thus the "colorism" lens - whatever that may be - is also complicated by nationalism.

And there is a deep and fascinating past on Hispaniola which the opinion writer has clearly not studied.

I went to a conference with both Dominican and Haitian journalist - my report - vis a vis the Trujillo/racism/historty question as answered by a former DR Ambassador to Haiti might be of interest-

http://www.ipsnews.net/2008/11/haiti-dominican-republic-media-unites-to-fight-stereotypes/
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So, you have explained everything you "are not trying to do", please explain what "you are trying to do"?
 
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Caonabo

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the gorgon said:
you think slavery and discrimination are tiresome?

i wonder what your opinion would be if you were a victim...

you think they are an excuse? excuse for what?
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Where is the slavery occurring in the RD? Please provide details sir.
 
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Caonabo

Guest
Luperon said:
I don't think the subject of reparations fall into racism.

The Dominican Republic needs to start having a "conversation" about reparations.

Just my opinion.
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For what, and to whom? Please speak, and speak clearly.
 
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the gorgon

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Caonabo said:
Where is the slavery occurring in the RD? Please provide details sir.
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go back and read the thread, from the beginning. i was not the one who introduced the words ''slavery and discrimination''. another poster did.

the response from Fulano was that reference to slavery and discrimination are tiresome.

i simply said that when you are the victim, it is not tiresome to mention it.

i made less than zero reference to anything taking place in the island of Hispaniola.
 
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Caonabo

Guest
the gorgon said:
go back and read the thread, from the beginning. i was not the one who introduced the words ''slavery and discrimination''. another poster did.

the response from Fulano was that reference to slavery and discrimination are tiresome.

i simply said that when you are the victim, it is not tiresome to mention it.

i made less than zero reference to anything taking place in the island of Hispaniola.
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Again, I respect the response, but to you and ALL others, please tell me WHERE is slavery occurring in the RD? And to all who choose to respond, please provide factual details....including provinces, dates and times.
 
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the gorgon

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Caonabo said:
Again, I respect the response, but to you and ALL others, please tell me WHERE is slavery occurring in the RD? And to all who choose to respond, please provide factual details....including provinces, dates and times.
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you might want to withdraw addressing your request to me, because i have never even suggested such a thing in the case of the DR.

actually, for anyone who is familiar with the DR, slavery was not a consequential condition there, even during the heights of slavery in the world..
 
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Caonabo

Guest
mountainannie said:
Well - I can certainly remember the ABRUBT shift when I was in college and the Indians became the Good Guys and the Cowboys the Bad Ones... times change....
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I believe you reside in the US of A currently, correct? Was there a reason to spark up such a type of conversation from a far? And no, this is not an attack, it is a question. No need for I to receive another infraction for simply asking a poster to clarify their written word. Thank you moderators.
I do wonder what is your specific agenda this week though.
 
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Caonabo

Guest
the gorgon said:
you might want to withdraw addressing your request to me, because i have never even suggested such a thing in the case of the DR.

actually, for anyone who is familiar with the DR, slavery was not a consequential condition there, even during the heights of slavery in the world..
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With you sir, I can agree, as I know you are genuine. Some others not so much so.
 
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