Gold or Child?

[macocael]

Suarezn well said. I spent alot of time documenting the Dominican immigrant community abroad and I can say that you pretty much hit it on the head. The situation is really very complex, for one thing the women cannot automatically take their children with them, and from the Dominican point of view, there is a deep seated belief that life is simply better over there, money is to be had for the asking ("mira fulano que lleg? pa' la navidad, y cuanto cuarto tenia!" -- eventhough all the chains he's wearing are rented for the occasion and the stories he tells are nothing more than tall tales). I have witnessed personally several times the destructive effect of these beliefs and the mistaken decisions they sometimes lead to -- but I have also just as often witnessed the hard working women dutifully following through, gathering their children up, and eventually making a life for themselves despite incredible sacrifice and very imposing obstacles. My heart goes out to them.

And I agree with you too Snuffy in that often it is a good idea to talk these things over and try to get people to realize what they are facing out there, or at least dispel some of the myths. But people can be pretty stubborn about this belief that herein lies salvation.

 

[trina]

I would say the vast majority of people leave with the good intention of returning and petitioning for their children. They also think they will be able to return in a short period of time...once they get here then reality sets in. The pressures of "making it" start and in many instances it takes the person 5+ years to return. If they were married they are most likely divorced by then...The children they left behind barely recognize them and they have gotten used to live a life free of kids and with no responsibility other than sending some money at the end of the month.

There's really nobody to blame here other than life itself. Those of you who say that you wouldn't leave weren't born in The DR and have not spent a life with little or no hope. It's always easy to talk about other people when you're not in the situation yourself. Like I said before, I've seen it happen in my own family and I can't say that my sister is a bad mother, but she had an opportunity and took it. We've never touched the subject, but I'm sure she has some regrets as any mother would, but I would think she'd say she would do it again if she had to.

Very well said, Suarezn, as usual. You paint a pretty accurate picture of the Dominican mindset. A couple of Dominican friends were over at my house a little while ago. Angel is out of town, and they just wanted to make sure I was okay. That's something I love about the culture. They look out for one another, but this subject brings "looking out for one another" to another level. I voiced my opinion to my friends, and one of the friends explained to me, almost word-for-word, what you said. I'm not saying the mother that leaves her children behind is a bad mother. I guess I would just hope that she did everything in her power to convince her spouse to bring the children with them. I can't put myself in the position of someone who is desperate and poor, because I've never been either, but I think I have a better handle on the Dominican mindset than most gringas. I CANNOT imagine leaving my children, for any reason. In my opinion, it is mentally damaging to have their mother, with whom they shared a bond since birth, to abandon them.

 

[trina]

Have you ever seen the movie Sophia's Choice. If not rent it.
QUOTE]

That movie ripped my heart out.

Snuffy, all the talking in the world will not change their view of "the Promised Land". They all believe all their prayers are answered in Nueba Yol. And why wouldn't they? They see Fulano coming home with gold chains and money to burn. They don't know that it's paid for on credit and working two jobs and living in Dominican Heights ghetto for years to be able to "afford" to return. If every Dominican returns with gifts and gold and loaded with cash, and can afford to send money home mensual, then the people back home are going to think that money grows on trees in every country except for the DR.

 

[trina]

The situation is really very complex, for one thing the women cannot automatically take their children with them....

Why not? If they have a supportive spouse, there is no reason why the children cannot go, as well. If he can afford to bring her, he'd better make every effort to bring the children. The natural father, knowing the children are going to a "better place", will almost never hold them back.

 

[miguel]

Oh boy!

If they are truly making a sacrifice for the children, wouldn't it make sense to take the child with them to the US, where the child could actually have a better life, and be better educated? To me, it's plain selfishness to leave the child behind. I married Angel, and therefore married his child from another relationship. If you cannot accept the children as part of the marriage, you shouldn't be married. Why would I not want to bring Angel's child here, and give him a better life and better opportunities? If I were the Dominican living in the DR, and fell in love with a foreigner, and he wanted to bring me to the Promised Land, but not my child, guess what? SCREW U. You would have to cut my arms and legs off to take one of my three children from me. I don't understand this whole mentality of improving the child's life by leaving him behind. You are doing severe mental damage to the child by abandoning him for a better life for YOURSELF, NOT for your child.

ETA:
You have a heart of gold, Snuffy.

trina, stop for one second and look at this situation thru that eyes of a mother who lives in the DR, not thru the eyes of a person from Canada or a person from the US because I know that you know that in Canada and the US a person has much more opportunites when it comes to supporting a family.

Unless you have been in a similar situation and unless you have "walked" in their shoes, you can never comprehend what these mothers go thru.

Have you gone to sleep knowing that your kids cry themselves to sleep(asking for food) without an ounce of food in their bellies?. Have you gone to bed thinking "I have no food to give my kids when they wake up"?. Have you ever had the need to give your kids water with sugar and half a "pan de agua" for lunch?. Have you ever washed your kids clothes so many times that they fall apart and you can not buy them more because there is no money?. Of course not.

Now, if a person can not take care of her/his family and is presented with an opportunity to leave a third world country(DR) to go to the best country in the world (the US, in my opinion), if that person do not take the opportunity, then that person is the one that is selfish.

I have some friends in the DR that live paycheck by paycheck, they are used to it and claim that thry would never leave the DR. But the moment they lose their jobs, all hell breaks loose.

I have friends in the DR that are doing well and still would love to come to the US. Why?, because they know that no matter how good they have it in the DR, there are much, much more opportunities here. These people would not mind coming here to work for a few months and then go back to the DR with their hard-earned money. Nothing wrong in making, in the US, in one week, that they make over there in 1 month.

I can not compare myself with a Dominican person who is leaving the DR to better his/her life. I can't because I am not in their shoes. I don't know what's like no to have food on the table, not to have toys to play with, not to have less then 2 pants, not to have good shoes, not to have 1 peso to spend in "recreo" in school, not to have a bed to sleep in, I don't know what it is to cry of hunger and no matter how much I cry, I still will go to sleep with an empty stomach.

Don't get me wrong, since I can provide for my family, I have no need to go anywhere. But let me tell you that if I could not, I would do whatever is in my power for my kids not to suffer. If that means getting into a yola, I would do it. It would be selfish not to do it.

We have to put into consideration 2 things:
1- Would you rather see your kids suffer all the time and you not do anything about it?. That is exactly what will happen if you stay. Or


2- Would you do something about it so they don't suffer?. Yes, the kids will suffer but keep in mind that after she starts sending money to the DR, they WILL have a better life.

Now, since you put your husband on your post, let me ask you something:

Suppose, just suppose, that you and your husband, God forbid, lose your jobs at the same time and there's no savings. The bills are pilling up and the food is completely gone and you two can not get a job anywhere. Now, all of a sudden, he gets a "seasonal" job opportunity in Quebec where he will get 5 times more than what he was making in his previous job. It would just be for a little while but a good opportunity to take care of the family's hardship. Would he take it?. Remember, there's no food on the table and the kids are hungry.

Btw, there's no mention of the kid being able to leave the country also. But even if the person could, why not "taste" the waters before bringing a small child. What if the person does not have a job yet, does not have an apartment, does not know anything about the country, etc.....

Don't get me wrong, I would NEVER, ever, leave my kids behind. Then again, I have never been in a desperate situation where I could not provide for them. Therefore, I have not been in a desperate persons' shoes.

 

[trina]

Miguel, how is walking away from the children going to change any of this? Why don't they bring the kids with them and actually give them these opportunities that you talk about? IF you bring the kids with you to the US, you can ensure they are not going to suffer. If you leave them behind, and have no money to send, GUESS WHAT? They are not only STILL suffering, but they are also abandoned, scared, and missing their mommy.

Angel would move to Quebec to take the job, but not without me and the kids, it would be pointless to be paying rent in both places - we would be worse off, rather than better off. Thus, my point. If you are thinking of the children, you will not leave without them. If you are thinking of yourself, you will leave without the children.

 

[miguel]

Ok!

Miguel, how is walking away from the children going to change any of this? Do they have a bank account waiting for them in the US? Why don't they bring the kids with them and actually give them these opportunities that you talk about?

Angel would move to Quebec to take the job, but not without me and the kids, it would be pointless to be paying rent in both places - we would be worse off, rather than better off. Thus, my point. If you are thinking of the children, you will not leave without them. If you are thinking of yourself, you will leave without the children.

I didn't know that it was so easy for a person to get an visa out of the country, let alone one for her/his kid at the same time. Maybe the opportunity was for her only.

Again, look at the situation thru the eyes of a Dominican. If the opportunity was for just one person, why not grab it and them make a better life for the people that you left behind.

How many Dominican people do you know that when they get a visa to the US, they also get a visa for their kids at the same time?. Do you think they know what awaits them when they get to the host country?.

Don't get me wrong, I do see your point. You are talking with a mother's heart. But don't forget that being desperate in the DR is not the same as being desperate in Canada. Different monster all together.

 

[AnnaC]

Unless they leave on a yola if the parent got a visa the child/children will get one same time or shortly there after. I'm sure it's the same for the US. Look for Dale7 and he had posted it

 

[trina]

How many Dominican people do you know that when they get a visa to the US, they also get a visa for their kids at the same time?

Speaking from a Canadian who has done it, it is easier than easy. The spouse in the DR, as long as they can prove they are in a valid relationship and have no criminal issues and pass the medical, is practically guaranteed a visa when wed to a Canadian. The visa is also granted automatically for the children if they are listed on the application. The visas are good for one year, and the applicant and children MUST travel from the DR to Canada within that year to make it valid. To me, there is no excuse to leave the child behind. In which case, why should the opportunity have to be for just one person? I would fight tooth and nail to have my spouse sponsor my children as well, and if the spouse wouldn't do it, I'd either have to say so long, or get to Canada and sponsor them anyways. In which case, I wouldn't be abandoning them for years at a time while my heartbroken child waits for me in the DR.

 

[macocael]

Why not? If they have a supportive spouse, there is no reason why the children cannot go, as well. If he can afford to bring her, he'd better make every effort to bring the children. The natural father, knowing the children are going to a "better place", will almost never hold them back.

I cannot give you a definitive answer,and putting the whole question of supportive spouses to the side (who may not in fact be supportive and may not want the children from a previous liaison), I suspect that part of the reason lies in the fact that so many of these woman arrange for their visa "con machete" -- under assumed names, and thus have no "children" or cannot pay for the children to go too. For you to compare your situation with that of the people who escape in this fashion is to overlook the very great discrepancies that prevail between yours and theirs. That is, many of the women that I have met did not emigrate as a spouse of a foreigner but as a family relation to some Dominicans in the States (also, the US happens to be a little harder on these visa applications than Canada. I know because even though if I were to move to the states I could certainly take the family, the process via INS is a bit complex and they do in fact reject applications. Even just getting a visa de paseo for my wife has proven to be a real pain in the ass. But I am straying from the topic.) I dont want to confuse the issue here, but not all these cases are matters of spousal relationships.

I know without a doubt that many of these people arrange for their visa con machete, while those who dont, those who possibly can apply for a visa legally may be hindered by other obstacles, chiefly financial I would guess. But it is not like these women are just abandoning the family. It is more complex and there are plenty of sociological studies on the process. Google profs Ramona Hernandez and silvio Torres-saillant to find the articles.

Dont misunderstand me, I am not saying you are wrong either: again it is not that simple. I sometimes have to be away from my family, and the separation is hard to bear. I can only imagine what it must be like for people who are separated for longer periods of time. Myself, I wouldnt want to make a move that would require my having to leave my family behind, but in a sense I am part way there and I can sympathize with some people who see no other way out and feel that emigration is the answer. Part of the problem lies in a perception that there are no options, when in fact there might be, depending on the individual's case, and part of the problem is that sometimes there really are no good options, so people hope that by making a drastic change, it might bring them a change of fortune.

I am not criticizing either point of view, I am just saying the problem is complex and we need to look at both sides sympathetically. However, I will say that I am presently aware of two matrimonial cases in which I cannot see the reason for not having taken the kids. One of them I mentioned above, and I have asked the woman why she doesnt come and get her two children. Her answers have always been vague and illogical, so I suspect that something is up, probably on the husband's end.

 

[miguel]

Ay papa!

There's really nobody to blame here other than life itself. Those of you who say that you wouldn't leave weren't born in The DR and have not spent a life with little or no hope. It's always easy to talk about other people when you're not in the situation yourself. Like I said before, I've seen it happen in my own family and I can't say that my sister is a bad mother, but she had an opportunity and took it. We've never touched the subject, but I'm sure she has some regrets as any mother would, but I would think she'd say she would do it again if she had to.

suarez, I did not see your post and I wasted my time explaining and explaining when all I wanted to say was written by you.

My mother used to say that it was the most painful thing that she have ever done. Endless crying nights, bouts with depression, going out of her mind thinking that she did something wrong. The list goes on and on and on.

Sometimes people do not understand that many times, even if the people are doing well, they have to look at the big picture and see what the future holds for her and her kids.

In my case, it was at a time when Dominican females were thought of as being just a piece of furniture. At that time, in the late , 60's, there was basically no jobs for females. The man was the "amo y senor" of the house. Whatever he said, it was the law. They would do whatever they wanted and still get away with it because they were the bread winners. Back them, females were seen, by men, as house slaves without rights or opinions(not all but most). They were only good to keep the house in order, cater to the husband and to have kids.

There are many cir****ances why people leave the DR. SOME leave not only to give their kids a better life, but also to make sure that they do not turn out to be like their dad!. Nuff said!.

 

[miguel]

Never mind!

Speaking from a Canadian who has done it, it is easier than easy. The spouse in the DR, as long as they can prove they are in a valid relationship and have no criminal issues and pass the medical, is practically guaranteed a visa when wed to a Canadian. The visa is also granted automatically for the children if they are listed on the application. The visas are good for one year, and the applicant and children MUST travel from the DR to Canada within that year to make it valid. To me, there is no excuse to leave the child behind. In which case, why should the opportunity have to be for just one person? I would fight tooth and nail to have my spouse sponsor my children as well, and if the spouse wouldn't do it, I'd either have to say so long, or get to Canada and sponsor them anyways. In which case, I wouldn't be abandoning them for years at a time while my heartbroken child waits for me in the DR.

Man, I really do not know what you are talking about!. Yes, of course that it can be done with a foreigner's help. It's much easier. I am a product of that since my grandad was an American Citizen by birth. Nowhere in the OP's it's stated that the person has any type of help.

We are talking about a Dominican, not a Dominican that can be helped by his/her foreign spouses.

Did you think for one second that your husband was going to say "no" to you when you started the paperwork to bring him to Canada?. Of course not. Why?, because I am sure that is is much better of in Canada than in the DR, and so is his son. Correct?. Think about it, that's called betting oneself.

Like I said, there are many cir****ances.

Btw, if I were a Dominican female and I was married to a foreigner, I too would not leave my kids behind when he is doing "papers". Either take us all or not at all. It's done ALL the time. SOME Dominicans are that "pendejos".

 

[trina]

Man, I really do not know what you are talking about!. Yes, of course that it can be done with a foreigner's help. It's much easier. I am a product of that since my grandad was an American Citizen by birth. Nowhere in the OP's it's stated that the person has any type of help.

If I thought you'd understand it if I wrote it in Spanish, I would. However, I don't know which language you are proficient at, so I'll stick to English. :cheeky: I'll try to make it a little clearer for you, because I'm not real sure what you are reading.

I assumed that we are talking about Dominicans that leave the legal way, not the illegal way. My bad. If we are talking about the very small percentage that can leave the island, on their own, without help, then it's even worse that they are leaving their children behind!!! If they are making a good living in the DR, which they must be to be able to get a visa the legal way, then, guess what? They aren't leaving their children suffering, without food on the table, as you'd inferred in an earlier post. They are NOT dying of hunger. If the Dominican is that well-off that she qualifies for a visa, her children ARE NOT without food and the basics.

If we are talking about the idiots who try to leave the island on yolas, again, what good is their mother to them, if she is dead? Even if she arrives, she has to take illegal work and will never be able to sponsor them anyways, so it takes away the fact that she is doing something selfless. She is, again, doing it for selfish reasons, because her children will never get to the US/Canada legally.

 

[trina]

Think about it, that's called betting oneself.

Like I said, there are many cir****ances.

Actually, I've thought about it, and I believe it's called bettering oneself. And if you learned how to spell circumstances, you wouldn't get all the ****'s in your words, blocking out the swear words.

 

[Snuffy]

No food in their bellies and no clothes? I don't think this applies to the two cases I cited. I don't think it applies to many of these cases where the mother goes abroad.

On a more positive note.....if you know of any children that lack decent clothing and lack food......take me to them and I will make it right. My experience has been that the poor buy clothing at pulga for 10, 20 pesos and that they can normally afford platano, rice, and beans. But seriously, if you know of children like that then that is where we should all be focusing our attention. I don't see it when I visit barrios but perhaps I am missing it.

 

[Snuffy]

Why would the US gov. allow a mother to go to the USA without her child....that is another mystery.

 

[miguel]

Sometimes I feel like a NUT, sometimes I don't!

Actually, I've thought about it, and I believe it's called bettering oneself. And if you learned how to spell circumstances, you wouldn't get all the ****'s in your words, blocking out the swear words.

Is this the best you can do?. Unlike you, I am not perfect and I do not use "spell check". You "know" enough about me to know that I am always up for a challange. Start a thread in English or Spanish and let's compare qualifications, one by one and let's see who comes ahead of the game.

Let me tell you again, unless you have been in their shoes, you can not understand why these people do what they do. If you still don't get what I mean, go re-read suarezn's post. Other than that, there's nothing else I can say to make you aware of what is it that I am trying to say.

Snuffy: I was just trying to say that there are many people in the DR that would take advantage of leaving the country rather than seeing their kids go to bed with an empty stomach.

You guys want to know the true meaning of sacrifice, look up the story of Mexicans Yolanda and Rogelio Garcia, a couple that crossed the US boarder over 30 years ago.

 

[laurapasinifan]

back to the original post. I think a case can be made for the woman foregoing some years with her child at a young age in the hopes of making a better future for him in the long run.

dont people, save for their kids future and education from early on?....they dont pile on all the gifts and lavish living until they run out of money...they pace it, or save for their childs future.

isnt this woman doing something similar?

she can see what life holds for her in the DR if she stays with out a husband...she can see it every where. And it is not the best of worlds....she believes she can do better, based on word back from america,is many many formats.

she can go awya for 5 years maybe , the kid goes with out a mother, but probably not without loving from another family memeber who still lives in the DR. The mother gets by missing her flesh and blood, probably sacrificing along the way, to save for her child...

then when there is the time and or money to bring the child over...or the mother comes back with a small nest egg.... they will live a better life

in theory...but thats what any of us have.. a theory that what we are doing is good....we may die tomorrow, and yes that will have killed the theory...but who thinks like that?


yes there are probaly many parents who do these things and could care less about their child or anyone else for that matter....there are a million in american already!


..I dont argue for nor against.....i just think there could be a positive cause, and a corresponding result......

bob

 

[macocael]

If they are making a good living in the DR, which they must be to be able to get a visa the legal way, then, guess what? They aren't leaving their children suffering, without food on the table, as you'd inferred in an earlier post. They are NOT dying of hunger.

Actually that is not quite the case. Visas are given for a variety of reasons and wealth is not a major factor. (Visas de paseo, tourist visas that is, do have wealth and property, among other things, as criteria, but a resident's visa does not necessarily.) Since the "argument of 1965" (as Mirador would have me call it ) Dominicans were given a special dispensation to emigrate to the US: this was a means of providing political sanctuary to some and siphoning off political undesirables as well. The way it works today is that if a relative in the States writes up a petition asking to have a family member to move to the States, that will provide grounds for the granting of a residential visa. Other factors enter in, of course, but the family relation is considered reasonable grounds enough. the majority of people lining up everyday at the US consulate over on la Gomez are not making a good living (though of course some are).

Now "ir con machete" is a different matter. These cost money and usually everyone needs to chip in so that one member of the family can emigrate and thus find a way to send money back. But because a good machete job costs money, the individual can rarely raise enough to bring others along with him or her. Moreover, although this process involves a hefty charge, one still cannot argue that the people who opt for it are living well. If they were, the majority of them would not consider it, though the pull of that dream is such that some who have decent resources still do.

Finally in the case of the yoleros, these people are generally the most desperate and the poorest of these three groups (visa through legal familial relations, visa "con machete," and yolas). But they too pay what for them is a considerable sum. I have two neighbors in Sonador who paid for yola trips, were caught and returned, and are still paying what they owe. So while the people may have money to make the trip, that doesnt mean that these people have many resources or are making a good living. Quite the contrary.

 

[trina]

Actually that is not quite the case. Visas are given for a variety of reasons and wealth is not a major factor. (Visas de paseo, tourist visas that is, do have wealth and property, among other things, as criteria, but a resident's visa does not necessarily.) Since the "argument of 1965" (as Mirador would have me call it ) Dominicans were given a special dispensation to emigrate to the US: this was a means of providing political sanctuary to some and siphoning off political undesirables as well. The way it works today is that if a relative in the States writes up a petition asking to have a family member to move to the States, that will provide grounds for the granting of a residential visa. Other factors enter in, of course, but the family relation is considered reasonable grounds enough. the majority of people lining up everyday at the US consulate over on la Gomez are not making a good living (though of course some are).

You are a wealth of knowledge, and a welcome addition to this board! I had no idea such visas were a possibility in the US. Thanks for shedding more light on this.