Hait's religious leader

[mountainannie]

The OP invited me to comment on this thread but I have not since it seemed to be going very well..
I would only add/correct/suggest a couple of things..

first . Voodu was not the state religion under Duvalier. Catholocism was as he signed a concordat with the Pope for its recognition as the State Religion.

Voodu was recognized as a formal religion in Haiti under Aristide.

I would introduce the group also to the work of Elizabeth McAlister, a US scholar who is also a practicing voodusant

http://emcalister.faculty.wesleyan.edu/in-the-media/


The slaves imported by the Iberiana into the New World came from various countries. This was institued by the Portugese who collected them at a fort Elmina BBC NEWS | UK | Poignant site to remember slave trade

This was done to avoid having slaves who spoke a common language, had a common heritage, and could thus easily form common cause for an uprising.

I have heard that there was an original colony of slaves that came to Santo Domingo, around Barahona, brought from one tribe, the Waloofs of Senegal, who formed the first slave colony here are started an uprising.. although I have yet to see printed information on this.

The Portugese were involved in the slave trade long before the introduction of the practice in the New World Africa & the African Slave Trade

It should be remembered that when Columbus set sail, it was just after the fall of the 700 year Moorish occupation of Spain YouTube - When the Moors Ruled in Spain (1 of 11)

thus the conquering Columbus came with the SWORD of Chritistianity...

While the Spaniards were very sucessful in wiping out the traditional religion of most of the Indian tribal relgions in the New World (although anyone who has seen Easter celebrated in Guatemala can attest to the fact that it is only a veneer), the French were perhaps less so.....

France was by far the largest importer of slaves into the new world...

and Haiti was the recipient of the bulk of these slaves

French Slavery

It is, therefore, impossible to trace the orgins of voodu back to any specific African tradition.. either Congolese or Yoruba or other...

The Haitian loas are specific to Haiti.. note, for example Brigette, Maman Brigitte

Note also that while Max Beavoir is now the elected leader of the vodousants in Haiti,http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/world/americas/04iht-profile.4.11680706.html

each hougan or mambo (male or female) voodu priest operates independently.,. although this is a tradition into which one must be intiated under the tutelage of someone who has contact with the loas.

Although most Christians term any relgion that is not Abrahamic as "pagan", the Catholics have long been tolerant of the practice of voodu. Most Protestant Evangelicals are not.

(this all .. of course... is only my opinion and my selection of sources... not meant to masquerade as the "Truth")

 

[getthesenets]

Mountaineer,

*I'd have to think that Portugal brought in more enslaved people than any other euro power...and surely more than France.

will come back later


*I also think that several cultural markers point to one or two tribes or regions in W. Africa dominating what eventually became Haitian culture....

 

[getthesenets]

I'll be in the US in a couple of weeks and will see if I can find the book. Should make for a great read.

By the way, and this is off topic, I recognize Henry Louis Gates Jr. from the beer summit.

it's a GREAT reference book, you'll get YEARS of use from it.


the beer summit* isn't THAT off the topic if you think about it......the setting.....the fact that it was publicized....all political
..to project a certain image to the constituents......

not unlike what Papa Doc's embracing of voudou was about



good eye to recognize Gates from that

 

[mountainannie]

Mountaineer,

*I'd have to think that Portugal brought in more enslaved people than any other euro power...and surely more than France.

will come back later


*I also think that several cultural markers point to one or two tribes or regions in W. Africa dominating what eventually became Haitian culture....

perhaps... I am really only cognisant of the West Indies and US.. and the article was only comparing the French vs British and US trade... So I can give you that..

 

[mountainannie]

standing corrected

The OP invited me to comment on this thread but I have not since it seemed to be going very well..
I would only add/correct/suggest a couple of things..

first . Voodu was not the state religion under Duvalier. Catholocism was as he signed a concordat with the Pope for its recognition as the State Religion.

Voodu was recognized as a formal religion in Haiti under Aristide.

I would introduce the group also to the work of Elizabeth McAlister, a US scholar who is also a practicing voodusant

http://emcalister.faculty.wesleyan.edu/in-the-media/


The slaves imported by the Iberiana into the New World came from various countries. This was institued by the Portugese who collected them at a fort Elmina BBC NEWS | UK | Poignant site to remember slave trade

This was done to avoid having slaves who spoke a common language, had a common heritage, and could thus easily form common cause for an uprising.

I have heard that there was an original colony of slaves that came to Santo Domingo, around Barahona, brought from one tribe, the Waloofs of Senegal, who formed the first slave colony here are started an uprising.. although I have yet to see printed information on this.

The Portugese were involved in the slave trade long before the introduction of the practice in the New World Africa & the African Slave Trade

It should be remembered that when Columbus set sail, it was just after the fall of the 700 year Moorish occupation of Spain YouTube - When the Moors Ruled in Spain (1 of 11)

thus the conquering Columbus came with the SWORD of Chritistianity...

While the Spaniards were very sucessful in wiping out the traditional religion of most of the Indian tribal relgions in the New World (although anyone who has seen Easter celebrated in Guatemala can attest to the fact that it is only a veneer), the French were perhaps less so.....

France was by far the largest importer of slaves into the new world...

and Haiti was the recipient of the bulk of these slaves

French Slavery

It is, therefore, impossible to trace the orgins of voodu back to any specific African tradition.. either Congolese or Yoruba or other...

The Haitian loas are specific to Haiti.. note, for example Brigette, Maman Brigitte

Note also that while Max Beavoir is now the elected leader of the vodousants in Haiti,http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/world/americas/04iht-profile.4.11680706.html

each hougan or mambo (male or female) voodu priest operates independently.,. although this is a tradition into which one must be intiated under the tutelage of someone who has contact with the loas.

Although most Christians term any relgion that is not Abrahamic as "pagan", the Catholics have long been tolerant of the practice of voodu. Most Protestant Evangelicals are not.

(this all .. of course... is only my opinion and my selection of sources... not meant to masquerade as the "Truth")

I sent this post to a friend who specializes in the African roots of voudo and he barely gave me a passing grade

to wit

the proper spelling is "vodou"

And I have been corrected about the specificity of Haitian loas.. I did actually mean that the entire collection of loas could not be traced to ONE African nation.. but evidently I made things ambiguous by stating that the Haitian dieties are specifically Haitian.

Actually many of the Haitian loas, such as Damballah, Legba and the twins are imported directly from Africa or Gine.

 

[Africaida]

I sent this post to a friend who specializes in the African roots of voudo and he barely gave me a passing grade

to wit

the proper spelling is "vodou"

And I have been corrected about the specificity of Haitian loas.. I did actually mean that the entire collection of loas could not be traced to ONE African nation.. but evidently I made things ambiguous by stating that the Haitian dieties are specifically Haitian.

Actually many of the Haitian loas, such as Damballah, Legba and the twins are imported directly from Africa or Gine.

Gine ?? Guinee ?

Just curious

 

[Chirimoya]

Yes, as in Guinea.

 

[Africaida]

Yes, as in Guinea.

Thanks ! :cheeky:
Guinea really ?? Which one? I am assuming Conakry...
I thought most of it was traced to Nigeria and Benin (Yoruba tribe).

 

[pedrochemical]

Many of the Loas are recent - a bit like saints in the Catholic church - for example they have just canonized an Australian with a view to sainthood, I believe.

And wherever Vodou (sp?) comes from (physically or ideologically) it would be like other religions in that it develops over time from lots of disparate elements, ideas and scriptures.

Was Jesus not Jewish, for example?

Anyway, and this might be a little controversial, from what the missus says, the Loas are subservient to God.
And you can dip in and out of Vodou without offending the principles of Vodou.

It does not have to be a life commitment.

And why the heck, apart from dubious anthropological reasons, are people even discussing Vodou?
If it is in relation to how the Haitian culture is then it is no more relevant than Compas music and probably a lot less relevant than barbecued chicken.

Seriously.
The only people concerned with the impact of Vodou (ok I am gonna spell it like that from now on), rather than the study and practice seem to be foreigners looking for explanations as to why the place is such a mess.
In that context is it any wonder that Vodou gets a bad rap??

 

[mountainannie]

Yes, as in Guinea.

Yes.but the word GINE as used in the Haitian tradition is, I believe, simply "Africa"
Africa's Ogun: old world and new - Google Books

 

[getthesenets]

And why the heck, apart from dubious anthropological reasons, are people even discussing Vodou?
If it is in relation to how the Haitian culture is then it is no more relevant than Compas music and probably a lot less relevant than barbecued chicken.

Seriously.
The only people concerned with the impact of Vodou (ok I am gonna spell it like that from now on), rather than the study and practice seem to be foreigners looking for explanations as to why the place is such a mess.
In that context is it any wonder that Vodou gets a bad rap??

I took it as a sincere question. Most people outside of Haiti couldn't tell you what Kompas is, but a lot of people are familiar with the term "voodoo" and associate it with Haiti.

This thread examines where the outside perceptions come from among other things.

This is a respectful exchange of information....and quite honestly..it's a discussion that Haitian Americans and Hat. Canadians need to be having. Plenty of us are rather ignorant about the history of Haiti.

 

[mountainannie]

And why the heck, apart from dubious anthropological reasons, are people even discussing Vodou?
If it is in relation to how the Haitian culture is then it is no more relevant than Compas music and probably a lot less relevant than barbecued chicken.

Seriously.
The only people concerned with the impact of Vodou (ok I am gonna spell it like that from now on), rather than the study and practice seem to be foreigners looking for explanations as to why the place is such a mess.
In that context is it any wonder that Vodou gets a bad rap??

I think that there is more to it than that. Vodou has been consitently maligned by Christians who lack an understanding of the practices and cultural implications.

The suppression of Vodou .. or the attempted supression ... has been on the minds of most missionaires to Haiti... and in that I would include the medical missionaires who are enamoured of allopathic medicine and discount any herbal potions prepared by Hougans, or any spiritual concept behind illness.
Many Protestant missionaires preach that "Haiti was dedicated to Satan" (google that one for fun one day.. but not without the Barbencourt 5 star at your side). Certainly that has to produce a certain "schizo" reaction in the many children who are being "raised" by these missionaries? no?

So I think that it is important for "us outsiders" to recognize this and learn to RESPECT the traditions of Haiti, come to understand them better, and perhaps then, run less rough shod over an extremely rich and interesting culture.

 

[jrmirador@alumni.iu.edu]

I find Vodou no more superstitious than say Mormonism, and of course, people's religions beliefs do impinge on their political choices.

 

[puryear270]

As the OP on this thread, I am guilty as pedrochemical asserts.

I am an outsider, and all my life, I have heard only negative things mentioned about voodoo/vodou/vodon. And honestly, this thread has been exceptionally educational for me. I can read about the topic online and in books (and in the articles that people here suggest), but the personal accounts and the give-and-take of this forum are awesome.

Many people I know, some of whom are quite well educated, believe the nonsense that Pat Robertson and others have said about Haiti, simply because that is the only view they have ever heard. Now, when I go back to the states or when people chat with me on facebook and ask me if I'm not afraid of the Haitians coming over and practicing vodou in the town I live in, I can give an intelligent answer. And hopefully, by enlightening others, I can encourage them to donate or volunteer or otherwise assist in efforts of rebuilding a nation that has seen its share of too much suffering, including neglect from the rest of the international community.

 

[Africaida]

I think that there is more to it than that. Vodou has been consitently maligned by Christians who lack an understanding of the practices and cultural implications.

The suppression of Vodou .. or the attempted supression ... has been on the minds of most missionaires to Haiti... and in that I would include the medical missionaires who are enamoured of allopathic medicine and discount any herbal potions prepared by Hougans, or any spiritual concept behind illness.
Many Protestant missionaires preach that "Haiti was dedicated to Satan" (google that one for fun one day.. but not without the Barbencourt 5 star at your side). Certainly that has to produce a certain "schizo" reaction in the many children who are being "raised" by these missionaries? no?

So I think that it is important for "us outsiders" to recognize this and learn to RESPECT the traditions of Haiti, come to understand them better, and perhaps then, run less rough shod over an extremely rich and interesting culture.

Great post !

I can't give you more rep since I have to spread them

 

[getthesenets]

speaking of Pat Robertson.

either through embarrassment of voudou or lack of information,or for political reasons... NO Haitian intellectual, scholar, celebrity, theologian, statesman used a public platform to discuss, refute, challenge, clarify, or ANYTHING that Pat Robertson said...


So as usual, outsiders are defining Haitian culture to the mass media.

Granted, its a slippery slope*, but outside of people deriding Robertson for implying that the slavers were on the side of "good" and the enslaved people fighting to get free were on the side of "evil".....some of the public faces of Haiti during the earthquake blew an opportunity to educate and inform people.


*Slippery slope because of several factors that I won't get into now....I'll discuss via pm..but not the time or place to discuss it here....


I did google searches EVERY day..hoping that somebody..anybody would say something.....but like I said....slippery slope
I found an article from 2005, by a Haitian man who happens to identify as a Christian that challenges this old story that somehow Haitians made a pact with the devil to defeat the French...I sent it out to people I knew.

Might as well post it here...3 part series...God, Satan, and the Birth of Haiti

God, Satan, and the Birth of Haiti- Articles- BlackandChristian.com


God, Satan, and the Birth of Haiti, Part 2- Articles- BlackandChristian.com


God, Satan, and the Birth of Haiti, Part 3- Articles- BlackandChristian.com

 

[pedrochemical]

I think that there is more to it than that. Vodou has been consistently maligned by Christians who lack an understanding of the practices and cultural implications.

The suppression of Vodou .. or the attempted suppression ... has been on the minds of most missionaries to Haiti... and in that I would include the medical missionaries who are enamored of allopathic medicine and discount any herbal potions prepared by Hogans, or any spiritual concept behind illness.
Many Protestant missionaries preach that "Haiti was dedicated to Satan" (google that one for fun one day.. but not without the Barbencourt 5 star at your side). Certainly that has to produce a certain "schizo" reaction in the many children who are being "raised" by these missionaries? no?

So I think that it is important for "us outsiders" to recognize this and learn to RESPECT the traditions of Haiti, come to understand them better, and perhaps then, run less rough shod over an extremely rich and interesting culture.

And this is where I am waaaaayy behind the zeitgeist.

Ghosts, gods, devils, fairies and pixies and the like all seem a little abit silly to me.

But this is the case - Cholera is mechanical - albeit non linear.


Thus I shall butt out of this discussion as I would a discussion that implied the veracity of astrology.

But, the thing that scares me most is this - people who should know better will continue to try and find an explanation for the current mess wherever it seems most convenient. That necessarily means the differences between "Us and Them."
I mean , surely - if they were like us then this wouldn't have happened? Right?!?

At best, some academics may draw a comparison here or a conclusion there - but the problem is that people who are as uninformed, brainwashed and impressionable as our own Chip - and the equivalent retards who attained power whether through an election or through credence bestowed by the rest of the impressionable detritus - sadly lacking of knowledge and wit - these are the assembled majority.


Whether it is true or not, the perception is that Haitians are more superstitious than their beleaguered benefactors - i.e. the US and the EU.

That is plainly not the case.

But who would I be to to fly in the face of the majority???


I caused a storm on my blog with my friends back home when I suggested that the next time you see bags of rice being thrown from the back of an aid truck - and a bunch of skinny black people fighting amongst themselves, trampling women and children to get to the food - THIS IS YOU AND ME.

Consider this, please.

My reference for this outrageous assumption goes something like this - Bob Geldoff brought to our attention the starving of Ethiopia back in the '80s.
When I saw the associated images on T.V, my childish thoughts were this -


Why does that child with the bloated belly not flick those flies away from his eyes?


Now I have most of the answer.

 

[pedrochemical]

As the OP on this thread, I am guilty as pedrochemical asserts.

QUOTE]


Holy crap dude!!!

Did I assert that?
Sorry - you seem like that rare case that is actually thinking about his stuff.

Sorry if I implied anything else - I get a little over the top sometimes.


As a reference - think of football hooligans in the UK. Football engenders stronger allegiances than any religious affiliation (since the '80s) but most UK folks would be thoroughly distraught by the notion that these form any part of our cultural make-up.





Again - apologies.
I shall tone it down a bit.

 

[MerengueDutchie]

Merengue,

what do you think of this interview?

Studies in Vodoun: A primer about Haitian Vodou

Excellent article, very balanced and completely true, written by a practioner.

You may note that it tells a lot about the history, goals, its place in daily life but not a lot about the actual practices, which is as it should be.

 

[MerengueDutchie]

Moutnainannie,

Haitian Vodou or Vodoun has its main body imported from Voudou out of Benin, which in itself is strongly connected with the Yoruba religion of IFA (the founder of Voudou mythologically is a son of the founder of IFA)..

Yes the have added or changed the role of Loa's in Haiti but the main roles are still the African Loa's.