Hate and the Role of a Super Power Part II

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Pavan

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Guys,

I started a backup thread just in case PIB decides to delete the thread in the DR Debate section.

Continue firing away.......
 

Paul Thate

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Quoted from Mob's email same thread elsewhere.

rather than reading and referring to one story in a newspaper, sometimes one needs to consider the whole paper before commenting:


another Toronto Star column

azb might even enjoy this one.

mob

So what are you trying to say Mob ?
The second article you ask me to read confirms exactly
my point that canadians and their leader
dont seem to blame the terrorist but rather feel that americans should blame them selves.

I dont think any body should be particularly proud of this view.
Considering the writer and in the political slant that newspaper has , it is not surprising.
 

Jane J.

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I think that there is a HUGE difference between saying "American foreign policy is responsible" and "American foreign policy is to blame". The attacks were not instigated by outrage over the the US's education system, or environmental affairs, but rather their policy and presence in other countries and bad image - however misguided. If I was asked the same question, I might answer yes also. Saying yes to that question in no way says that you applaud what happened.

For everyone upset over that poll, here is a link to a report that says Most Canadians Back Joint Command. Okay, it's not a very informative article, and makes Canadians seem like tag-along, coattail hangers - but very different from the hatemongering image portrayed of them on this thread.

Re: the CBC: Canada is leftist because our "mainstream" dares to challenge anything re: the USA? I think not. Hey, one of the differences between being Canadian and American is that Canadians AREN'T American! We have our guy and you have your guy and these aren't the days of Reagan and Mulroney. What else should we be doing that we're not already doing? We need to fix border and coastal security and have to work together, and when push comes to shove you know that we'll have our guys there too, with the wrong uniforms in broken helicopters.

Sobering thought.
 

mondongo

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Hey Missing_dr....I'll keep a look-out for Pib...If I see her, I'll start howling like a monkey...
 

eric

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Ah, the always eloquent Jane J. Good to see you. My take on this is that there are several countries in the world that could have a legitemate beef with the states.There are countries that have experienced U.S. gunboat diplomacy first hand. Saudia Arabia is not one of them.The majority of the people responsible for the Sep 11 attacks came from Saudia Arabia.The U.S. has never had a war with Saudia Arabia,never dropped one bomb on them,never shot one of thier citizens. Saudia Arabia actively recruits workers in the states,sends thier citizens to schools in the states.So my question is just what part of the U.S. foriegn policy is to blame for these middle class to wealthy individuals taking part in this action?Everyone loves to keep repeating the mantra "U.S. foriegn policy is to blame" I want some answers to just what the states did to Saudia Arabia.

Or Egypt for that matter.Or most of the countries in the middle east.The U.S. has never had colonies in the middle east.The U.S. did not carve the middle east up after the first world war.I don't want to hear that crap about Palestine.Was anyone from Palestine involved in the attacks? Saudia Arabia does not care about Palestine, what have they done for the people of Palestine?Nothing!This argument that the U.S. created the taliban and are responsible for thier actions doesn't hold water. The states gave military aid to freedom fighters fighting against the Soviet Union.These people them bite the hand that feeds and start housing terrorists,and somehow the states are to blame? The west gave aid to the Soviet Union during WW2. So are they to blame for the cold war?Or China? So if you try to help someone and they stab you in the back,and steal from you,and go on a killing spree ,you are to blame?So what lesson are we to learn from this?Never help anyone? Screw the world? Lets not send any aid to anyone who might need it,because they might become the next Cuba,and then we would have to listen to how we "created" them? Thats the ultimate irony.You give someone help,they take the help,and then use it to screw you over.then you have to listen to how you created the problem! So lets hear some ideas then! Everyone wants to blame U.S. foriegn policy.Lets hear some ideas as to what you would do differently then.What change is it going to take to make wealthy Saudis (who couldn't care less about Palestine) stop killing innocent Americans?

I am not being sarcastic either,I really do want to hear some ideas as long as we are on this topic.
 

Robert

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missing_dr, just one problem, you're now in my side of the board :)

Moving the thread doesn't guarantee it will not be canned.
Keep to the rules at it will stay safe...
 

Paul Thate

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Jane your canadian logic passed me by.
As writing is not my strength I needed to look in webster.
I looked up the word blame , it said placing the responsability
for. You say there is a huge difference . Well I am not going to dispute this.
The only problem I have is that the Canadians are linking their
complaints to sept 11. and thats stupid.
 
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Escott

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Robert said:
missing_dr, just one problem, you're now in my side of the board :)

Moving the thread doesn't guarantee it will not be canned.
Keep to the rules at it will stay safe...

Jesus Robert... Evidently some people do NOT like being moderated. Why make this statement, is it just to incite? It was going well until I saw your post.

Escott
 

Escott

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Jane J... In the wrong uniforms and faulty helicopters? In the long run I believe that Canada along with the Dominican Republic needs the US more than the US needs Canada and the Dominican Republic. Laws of supply and demand dictate that the US will get its way for the most part. That may be the reason that many Canadians are Jealous of the US and what it has to offer. On the other hand I have NEVER found this from Dominicans. They have always been respectful of me coming from the US and have NEVER expressed this same jealous attitude I find from Canadians. That is why I surprised to see Cleeve state that. I have been in the DR for at least one week every two months for years and have NEVER run into what he said about young Domincans disliking the US.

Mondongo... I am sure absolutely you will do well at what you are going to contribute here.

To everyone... Of course the 9-11 attacks are related to something albeit I don't know what specifically other than the US desire for freedom from Religious procecution and unfair treatment of women throughout the World that has made these fanatics kill over 3000 people in the US and destroy the lives of untold thousands affected either directly or indirectly along with the economy of the free world. We may be suffering here in the US but I promise that the economy and the people of Canada are going to suffer because of this as well. The Canadian government has already threatened to push its trade to Europe if the US doesn't relax border control.

Eric... Jordan and Iran have already refused in advance any Iraqi refugees if the US attacks. The Palestinians have been "Not wanted" by any Arab nation for 75 years and have received more from Israel than from their "BROTHERS in Islam" which I find completely amazing with of course the exception of the Saudis which give money to Suicide Bombers families but not the people that are suffering from the effects of these Suicide maniacs. These same Saudis complain to the US about how we treat them at our borders now and how we should listen to what they have to say about how we should handle ourselves. 14 out of 16 were Saudis on 9-11.

Missing_DR... I feel that the US picked the wrong horse on your side of the world. It is all politics and your country may have made a mistake on your leaning towards the Soviet Union. I am not a political kind of guy but that is just my take. We also may have not been able to accomplish other things but no one has briefed me with specifics:)
 

Paul Thate

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Jane instead of placing blame on the USA for anything related to september 11 it should be placed where it belongs .
As this was an act of very sick people.
How about they must have been dropped as babies.
Eventhough its hard to imagin that these people ever were babies.
Or the camel milk they were fed had turned rancid.
They were left to long in the sun.
So I blame their mothers.
Any of these reasons are as valid as any your illustrious
leader and now it seems the majority of the canadians are trying to bring up.
 

Jane J.

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I looked up the word blame , it said placing the responsability for.

Paul, look up also the verb....
Blame: responsibility for something believed to deserve censure.

Blame is when something goes wrong. What I meant was, you can say that foreign policy sparked the attacks, but you cannot say that foreign policy is at fault. Or can you? Like Eric, I hope someone will give some insight as to which specific parts of the US policy are so offensive.
 
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AnnaC

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Does anyone know what the US foreign policy is exactly? Do we as Canadians know ours?I'm sure the majority of the people that died on 9/11 didn't either.
Peace!
 

Robert

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jazzcom said:


Jesus Robert... Evidently some people do NOT like being moderated. Why make this statement, is it just to incite? It was going well until I saw your post.

Escott

No, it's to remind....
 

Pavan

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Robert,

For God's sake....be proud of this thread!!!!

If I were you when it is all finished I would frame it and hang it in my living room

Missing_dr
 

Escott

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Jane J. said:


Paul, look up also the verb....
Blame: responsibility for something believed to deserve censure.

Blame is when something goes wrong. What I meant was, you can say that foreign policy sparked the attacks, but you cannot say that foreign policy is at fault. Or can you? Like Eric, I hope someone will give some insight as to which specific parts of the US policy are so offensive.

I would be interested to hear about what Canadians have to say about what part of the US foreign policy is the problem. I never knew that the Canadians were so problemed with the attitude of the US.

Of course Harold is in a world of his own. Wonder where he comes from. He just takes free shots but offers nil.
 

mobrouser

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paul, first of all, a simplistic analogy for you: my older son likes to show his younger brother who is the boss in their relationship, sometimes to the point of deliberately provoking him just to get a reaction. the reaction may be verbal or at times it may be physical. do i tell the older one that it was his fault he got hit? no, but i do show him how different behaviour might have resulted in a more positive reaction from his brother.

paul, secondly, your dislike of chretien has been expressed many times. my point (taken from the star column):

"...... Rather, it is that they do hold such views; that they are entitled to such views in their free and democratic societies; and that their views deserve to be heard and debated in their free and open media......"


you see it as foot in mouth, an embarassment; i am relieved that our prime minister is a man who will say what he believes, and who is able to say what he believes. (that was the secondary goal of the Afghan invasion, wasn't it? --- otherwise the deaths of Cpl Ainsworth Dyer and his fellow infantrymen were a truly collosal waste)

mob

ps. to eric--my apologies if that was not your post, who would believe the coincidence? my point in posting the replies to "eric"--in my mind they were well on the way to leading to debate on cleef's 4th question.
 
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Paul Thate

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I dont mind you use that analogy to describe the relationship
between Canada and the USA .
But I would mind if that was meant to explain the relationship between the USA and the terrorist.

I have no problem with a strong independant Canada.
It probably would even be very good for the relationship.

But it should be based on Canadas strengths.
not on " we are not americans""we are different from Americans " These are the two remarks most often brought forward
in these type of debates. Why ?
I have not heard ever an American claim such a thing .
That type of defence is unneccessary.

I agree I am glad Chretien is ABLE to speak his mind
thats what we are all fighting for his right to speak his mind.

We just wish he had a mind to speak..
 

Pavan

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Scott,

Yes indeed US chose the wrong partner I would say, but, circumstances as you say cause everything. We can all talk about that the US screwed up here and there, but, these things happened 30 - 40 even 52 yrs ago. The whole thing started with the Berlin blockade which in turn started when the Allies were " distributing" the Nazi prisoners amongst themselves.

True the world was then divided in between the two super powers of the time...US & Soviet Union. Now when the Chines aggression towards India started ...the US sent a Airborne division in the Himalayan region (1949). When the Chinese objected the US turned away and flew out. India was just an newly independent country did not have the means to defend itself against a Chinese aggression.

The only other alternative was to turn towards the Soviet Union.

Also in the Chinese aggression, my birth place was taken away by them.....in the North Eastern Sector.

The only big mistake the US made which they knew was in the long term a mistake was ....arming the Mujadeen with the Stingers...that one piece of equipment chased the Hinds away for good. Thus the way was paved for the Taliban, slaughter of Ahmed Shah Maood, Najibullah etc etc.

Right now......India's best friend is Musharraf. He is the only one in Pakistan standing alone with the US / India. The Indian's and Pakistanis may claim how much they hate each other in public but, right now...nobody wants Mush to fall.
 

Golo100

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The ugly american syndrome

is the result of envy across the world. If one were to extrapolate the imperialist and colonialist experience around the world, there are no major differences between Portugal, Spain, Britain, France and the United States in terms of their role in history vis a vis third world people and countries.

Yet, who hates Portugal? Who hates Spain? Who hates Canada? Dominicans even call Spain the "Motherland"(Madre Patria). But everybody hates the United States....why? Because people hate winners. People hate the Yankees, not the San Diego Padres. Remember America's team, the Atlanta Braves? Who cares?

Tell me about Ruth, Dimaggio, Mantle, Jeter, Soriano!! Tell me about Uncle Sam!!! Everybody hates the winners!!!!

Saddam Hussein, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Al Qaeida are all losers. Give 'hem hell George.

TW
 

Theresa

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Because people hate winners. People hate the Yankees, not the San Diego Padres. Remember America's team, the Atlanta Braves? Who cares?

True, people hate winners but they love them too. Look at all the fans that jump on their favorite teams bandwagon, wear the championship shirts, buy hats etc. when they win championships. Where was the so called fan before the team won a championship? AND ....Some people DO like the Braves and DO care like ME :) Who hates the Arizona Diamondbacks? I think only the Yankee fans do cuz they wipped their buttox last year. I like the Diamondbacks and my team lost to them.
 
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