Why don't you be more specific and tell me? No really. Your view of history seem to be based on Julia's book, not history. Who has "wings" here? Not me.
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Hermanas Mirabal
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Why don't you be more specific and tell me? No really. Your view of history seem to be based on Julia's book, not history. Who has "wings" here? Not me.
No, wrong. There were free elections afterward. The people involved were almost entirely wiped out by Ramfis and the SIM. It certainly seems to irk you that the people that brought down the Trujillo Regime were not left wing.
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I'm curious, Ogre. Is this a reference to what some call the "Sergeant's Rebellion"? Most of which never really got started, because someone among them talked and many of them "disappeared," reportedly fed to the sharks?
Keith
Perhaps. I've read about several in different books. I'm trying to determine that now. I believe one of the ring leaders was an airforce officer. The very nature of the sabotage, disabling jet fighters, etc, points to engine mechanics, and others with that kind of know how(and more importantly, access to the planes). I read that the conspirators were detected by Trujillo's agents. I need to look into it more.
There were several plots in the military throughout Trujillo's rule. Quite a number. Trujillo seemed to be(again, IMO) more worried about rebellion within the armed forces that the civillian population.
I would like to add one last note about some of the things being posted about me. I honestly think that some of the late posts on this thread are not only pathetic, but also a dishonest attempt to twist(or completely invent) things that I have written. One need only review this thread and what I have written to see what I think of the Mirabal sisters(which is in no way negative).
Perhaps. I've read about several in different books. I'm trying to determine that now. I believe one of the ring leaders was an airforce officer. The very nature of the sabotage, disabling jet fighters, etc, points to engine mechanics, and others with that kind of know how(and more importantly, access to the planes). I read that the conspirators were detected by Trujillo's agents. I need to look into it more.
There were several plots in the military throughout Trujillo's rule. Quite a number. Trujillo seemed to be(again, IMO) more worried about rebellion within the armed forces that the civillian population.
I would like to add one last note about some of the things being posted about me. I honestly think that some of the late posts on this thread are not only pathetic, but also a dishonest attempt to twist(or completely invent) things that I have written. One need only review this thread and what I have written to see what I think of the Mirabal sisters(which is in no way negative).
I asked because I've heard about it via my wife's family, but have real problems finding it in history books. There finally was a tv documentary done on it a year or two ago, trying to get some of the few still alive with knowledge of it to spill all the details. But somehow it does not seem to make into printed histories...
Ogre, I said the ACADEMIC elite. I was referring to the professors and professional researchers, those who are more interested in books and research than they are in living and feeling the real life. The Mirabal sisters were real and couragous people who lived more than the removed antisceptic existance of those who think of themselves as intellectually superior, and those who will never comprehend what it like to have real human emotions.
You academics take your research as if it were real life, yet it is so removed from the feelings associated with life that all you ever experience are the cold unattached words. I truly feel sorry for you, as you will never experience the raw emotion of real life.
You academics take your research as if it were real life, yet it is so removed from the feelings associated with life that all you ever experience are the cold unattached words. I truly feel sorry for you, as you will never experience the raw emotion of real life.
Let me just be clear enough on this matter:
NO history book in the DR or abroad can or will tell 50% of the truth behind the fall of Trujillo, the power he had under his command, the people behind the curtains and front line.
As it happens, a good 75% that participated directly in the regime still lives in the DR and still have weight on the politics/power/economics of the country. No self loving person with direct and full knowledge of those people would dare put it in print.
Just as Balaguer indicated, some pages in his book were left intentionally blank, to be filled a good time much after his passing...
The Mirabal sisters were never into politics but the social struggles of a nation under the big brother system. They became targets of the machinery via the husbands and social relations.
For crying out loud! Just think that 99% of Trujillo's wealth was placed under distinguished families to represent in the exterior. Those families still own the wealth left behind, the one that Ramfis and the family couldn't take with them out of the country.
In the DR there are more Sociedades Anonimas than known corporations and the people behind them. Anyone can list names; few can say the actual names...
Just to let you understand one thing, and one thing only: The wealth is in the hands of people of trust to the US gov for a very long time. The US backed the Trujillo regime for a long time behind the curtains, and still supported the wealthy left behind the main Trujillo family in the DR.
There are many things that nobody wants known if ever to see the light of day...
NO history book in the DR or abroad can or will tell 50% of the truth behind the fall of Trujillo, the power he had under his command, the people behind the curtains and front line.
As it happens, a good 75% that participated directly in the regime still lives in the DR and still have weight on the politics/power/economics of the country. No self loving person with direct and full knowledge of those people would dare put it in print.
Just as Balaguer indicated, some pages in his book were left intentionally blank, to be filled a good time much after his passing...
The Mirabal sisters were never into politics but the social struggles of a nation under the big brother system. They became targets of the machinery via the husbands and social relations.
For crying out loud! Just think that 99% of Trujillo's wealth was placed under distinguished families to represent in the exterior. Those families still own the wealth left behind, the one that Ramfis and the family couldn't take with them out of the country.
In the DR there are more Sociedades Anonimas than known corporations and the people behind them. Anyone can list names; few can say the actual names...
Just to let you understand one thing, and one thing only: The wealth is in the hands of people of trust to the US gov for a very long time. The US backed the Trujillo regime for a long time behind the curtains, and still supported the wealthy left behind the main Trujillo family in the DR.
There are many things that nobody wants known if ever to see the light of day...
You're kidding, right? You honestly think I don't know what real emotions are? That I don't know what it is to live a real life? Most of the knowledge I've gained on Trujillo came from one on one interviews with the people involved. No really. I've interviewed people whose relatives died under torture or in gunfights with the SIM. Imagine what it is like to discuss these historic figures with that person's son, daughter, sister, or wife. I've come into contact with those emotions. So spare me your supposed pity.
How could a person who claims to empathize with the victims of Trujillo not understand the significance of the Mirabal sisters's contribution? Their sacrifice galvanized the emotions of the population. Their murders helped to coalesce the feelings of a people suppressed for 35 years. How can anyone who truly feels the emtions of a traumatized society not understand why the Mirabals are so important to the history of the Dominican Republic?
Pichardo, your point about the lingering effects of Truijllo, including the financial legacy, is very well put and extremely important when one is attempting to understand Dominican Republic's current political and cultural situation.
The shadow of Trujillo is cast long and wide, and there is still a lingering tendency toard self-censorship and implicate mistrust. The financial legacy is the iceburg beneath the surface.
Why is it the interest rates are so exorbitant that only few are able to start or grow a business? While difficult to prove, the answer is that much of the nation's wealth is controled and managed by remnants of the Trujillo regime, who establish the interest rates simply to keep the money within a privlegded inner circle.
As in any investigation, one needs to ask "cui bono?" Who benefits from a system that promotes fear, limits economic participation, and sabotages effective education? Well, the answer again is those who consolidated power after Truijllo's assasination, the same people who were more than likely conspirators in his murder, and now want to revise history with tall tales of Truijllo's "good works."
Just some food for thought, and I'm sure the academic historians will line up to dispute these conclusions. However remember, I do not personally benefit from any of this. You have to decide for yourselves who are protecting which interests, and for what reason.
The shadow of Trujillo is cast long and wide, and there is still a lingering tendency toard self-censorship and implicate mistrust. The financial legacy is the iceburg beneath the surface.
Why is it the interest rates are so exorbitant that only few are able to start or grow a business? While difficult to prove, the answer is that much of the nation's wealth is controled and managed by remnants of the Trujillo regime, who establish the interest rates simply to keep the money within a privlegded inner circle.
As in any investigation, one needs to ask "cui bono?" Who benefits from a system that promotes fear, limits economic participation, and sabotages effective education? Well, the answer again is those who consolidated power after Truijllo's assasination, the same people who were more than likely conspirators in his murder, and now want to revise history with tall tales of Truijllo's "good works."
Just some food for thought, and I'm sure the academic historians will line up to dispute these conclusions. However remember, I do not personally benefit from any of this. You have to decide for yourselves who are protecting which interests, and for what reason.
I understand their contribution. But I don't attribute things to them that are not true. Did you not read what I posted about them?
This is what happens when one bases history on novels and films and not factual history.
Yes, I read the entire thread, and I do not recall you refuting my contention that you do not consider the Mirabals worthy of a place in history.
If you care to re-read my post where I sought varification,
"If I understand you correctly, you are saying the Mirabal sisters do not deserve the attention they have gotten, and, in fact, they should not be afforded even a foot note in the history books."
Since you did not respond to my assertion, my best guess was that you concurred.
In any event, I still do not understand how you can fail to recognize the important emotional intangables required to bring about any social change.
The assasinators are the side-bar, in my estimation. They were just looking to protect their assests, which they did neatly. But the real social and cultural shift came about through the sacrifice of people like the Mirabals. Truijllo was finished before he was murdered. The remaining beneficiaries of Truillo's were only out to perserve what spoils they could.
Again, history is made, day to day, by good and common people trying to do the right thing. All the "great men" combined do not amount to a hill of beans compared to people like the Mirabals.
If you care to re-read my post where I sought varification,
"If I understand you correctly, you are saying the Mirabal sisters do not deserve the attention they have gotten, and, in fact, they should not be afforded even a foot note in the history books."
Since you did not respond to my assertion, my best guess was that you concurred.
In any event, I still do not understand how you can fail to recognize the important emotional intangables required to bring about any social change.
The assasinators are the side-bar, in my estimation. They were just looking to protect their assests, which they did neatly. But the real social and cultural shift came about through the sacrifice of people like the Mirabals. Truijllo was finished before he was murdered. The remaining beneficiaries of Truillo's were only out to perserve what spoils they could.
Again, history is made, day to day, by good and common people trying to do the right thing. All the "great men" combined do not amount to a hill of beans compared to people like the Mirabals.
What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OMG. The people I interviewed that had connections to the assassination did not "praise" Trujillo's "good works". None of them "praised" Trujillo. They just made casual observations about life under him, like, "in those days the electricity was always on." or "There was almost no crime." "The Dominican Peso was as strong as the US dollar." Things like that.
Good Lord. Most of the people involved in the assassination didn't even live to see the end of 1961, let alone protect their assets. This seems to be the "X-Files" version of history. How are the assassins "on the side bar? OMG. I can't believe what I'm reading. How are these people revising history? Ugh. General Imbert's brother, Major Segundo Imbert, was taken out and murdered the day after Trujillo was killed. The people involved in killing Trujillo lost loved ones, if not their lives.
OMG. I can't believe this.
Mirador, is that you?
P.S. I thought what Chiri wrote of the contribution of the Mirabals was entirely correct. I agree with that. The Mirabals deserved to be remembered, but to say the'great men"(do you mean the assassins) don't add up to a hill of beans is beyond insulting.
The assassins are just a sidebar??
OMG. The people I interviewed that had connections to the assassination did not "praise" Trujillo's "good works". None of them "praised" Trujillo. They just made casual observations about life under him, like, "in those days the electricity was always on." or "There was almost no crime." "The Dominican Peso was as strong as the US dollar." Things like that.
Good Lord. Most of the people involved in the assassination didn't even live to see the end of 1961, let alone protect their assets. This seems to be the "X-Files" version of history. How are the assassins "on the side bar? OMG. I can't believe what I'm reading. How are these people revising history? Ugh. General Imbert's brother, Major Segundo Imbert, was taken out and murdered the day after Trujillo was killed. The people involved in killing Trujillo lost loved ones, if not their lives.
OMG. I can't believe this.
Mirador, is that you?
P.S. I thought what Chiri wrote of the contribution of the Mirabals was entirely correct. I agree with that. The Mirabals deserved to be remembered, but to say the'great men"(do you mean the assassins) don't add up to a hill of beans is beyond insulting.
The assassins are just a sidebar??
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Aside from all the exclamations, what exactly are you saying?
You are either conveniently or intentionally mixing my message with your assumptions. Please just respond to my primary point, which is the Mirabal sisters are a significant part of the history of the Dominican Republic.
All the "OMGs" and "My lords" only go to demonstrate your lack of candor. Nothing in my posts could possibly be conscrued as a promotion of a "x-files version of history." I think you protest too much. Why are you being so defensive? I am questioning your basic assertion about the Mirabal and nothing more.
I posed a question, "Cui Bono?" While all the interviews and the research certainly add to the overall picture of that period of time, at the end of the day, you are only offering your verison of very clouded events.
The pure and simple truth may never be known, but there is amble reason to suspect that there were various motives behind various groups contending for money and power.
Exactly who is being insulted by my contention that the assasines were a side bar? That contention is nowhere near as insulting as contending that the Mirabals did not significantly influence the history of the Dominican Republic.
You are either conveniently or intentionally mixing my message with your assumptions. Please just respond to my primary point, which is the Mirabal sisters are a significant part of the history of the Dominican Republic.
All the "OMGs" and "My lords" only go to demonstrate your lack of candor. Nothing in my posts could possibly be conscrued as a promotion of a "x-files version of history." I think you protest too much. Why are you being so defensive? I am questioning your basic assertion about the Mirabal and nothing more.
I posed a question, "Cui Bono?" While all the interviews and the research certainly add to the overall picture of that period of time, at the end of the day, you are only offering your verison of very clouded events.
The pure and simple truth may never be known, but there is amble reason to suspect that there were various motives behind various groups contending for money and power.
Exactly who is being insulted by my contention that the assasines were a side bar? That contention is nowhere near as insulting as contending that the Mirabals did not significantly influence the history of the Dominican Republic.
About myths, you are intimating it.....
my bold
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I honestly don't know where to go with these statements.
Both of you-listen up. Stick to the facts, if you actually know them. I never said anything on this thread about the reasons for why Trujillo had them killed, I just stated I didn't believe they were the catalyst for his assassination. The books and interviews bare that out.
Why are you so hell bent to attribute more to them than actually did? Valentino Peguero made the point that they were one of thousands who risked their lives to bring down Trujillo. Is she also insulting their memory?
aranoid:Ogre, I do not wish to turn this into a personal debate. I am only debating the issue of the relative importance of the Mirabal sisters.
They were among many thousands who gave their lives in opposition to Trujillo. However, their story was so poignant and struck such a chord with the people that their murders took on a much more important aspect.
In history, sometimes those events most meaningful are those not planned or intended. As an example, the diary of Anne Frank. It was not her intention to expose the hate and injustice underlaying the Nazis, but that was the result.
That is case with the Mirabals. The effect of their murders were not foreseen by either Truijllo or the opposition. But that event occurred at a distinct and fortuatous time. It is a significant event, and it had a profound impact on the turnof forthcoming events.
That being said, I'm afraid I must address just one personal issue. Do not instruct me to "listen up." I am a grown man, probably several years older than you. I am also a teacher in a US public high school, certified in three educational areas. Don't presume that I know less than you regarding history or any other discipline, for that matter. You know nothing about me or my credentials, so please do make incorrect assumptions about me, and I will afford you the same respect.
They were among many thousands who gave their lives in opposition to Trujillo. However, their story was so poignant and struck such a chord with the people that their murders took on a much more important aspect.
In history, sometimes those events most meaningful are those not planned or intended. As an example, the diary of Anne Frank. It was not her intention to expose the hate and injustice underlaying the Nazis, but that was the result.
That is case with the Mirabals. The effect of their murders were not foreseen by either Truijllo or the opposition. But that event occurred at a distinct and fortuatous time. It is a significant event, and it had a profound impact on the turnof forthcoming events.
That being said, I'm afraid I must address just one personal issue. Do not instruct me to "listen up." I am a grown man, probably several years older than you. I am also a teacher in a US public high school, certified in three educational areas. Don't presume that I know less than you regarding history or any other discipline, for that matter. You know nothing about me or my credentials, so please do make incorrect assumptions about me, and I will afford you the same respect.
A glaring proof that the Trujillo legacy endured was with the "election" of Balaguer to the presidency five years after the assassination. An election were the other principal contender Bosch was pretty much muted fearing for his life. The elite was well entrenched and represented by Balaguer who was a Trujillo acolyte.
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