Hermanas Mirabal

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Ogre, I do not wish to turn this into a personal debate. I am only debating the issue of the relative importance of the Mirabal sisters.

They were among many thousands who gave their lives in opposition to Trujillo. However, their story was so poignant and struck such a chord with the people that their murders took on a much more important aspect.

In history, sometimes those events most meaningful are those not planned or intended. As an example, the diary of Anne Frank. It was not her intention to expose the hate and injustice underlaying the Nazis, but that was the result.

That is case with the Mirabals. The effect of their murders were not foreseen by either Truijllo or the opposition. But that event occurred at a distinct and fortuatous time. It is a significant event, and it had a profound impact on the turnof forthcoming events.

That being said, I'm afraid I must address just one personal issue. Do not instruct me to "listen up." I am a grown man, probably several years older than you. I am also a teacher in a US public high school, certified in three educational areas. Don't presume that I know less than you regarding history or any other discipline, for that matter. You know nothing about me or my credentials, so please do make incorrect assumptions about me, and I will afford you the same respect.

You're a real piece of work.

You were the one who launched the personal attacks on me. Reread your posts if need be. I think you should take your own advice. You know nothing of me. You should have chosen your words more carefully. Something else. I hope you don't teach history, because it's obvious your willing to spout off about things which you know almost nothing about. Because it's obvious you know almost nothing about this topic, and yet you have the nerve to attack me as if you were an authority on it.

I've interviewed the surviving members of the plot: General Imbert, Chana Diaz, Manuel deOvin(the Spaniard who made the shotgun shells), and several family members of plotters who were killed. None of them even mentioned the Mirabals during our interviews.

The motives of the assassins predate the Mirabal killings. What impact did their murder have? I'm not all that sure-but the murder of the Mirabals had little effect on the true motivations of the assassins(if any). The driving engine behind the assassination(IMO) was Antonio de la Maza. He wanted to avenge his brother's murder in the mid 1950's. That's it.

I would like to add something. There is nothing more to this event as far as conspiracies go. There are some operational details, and some clarification of events(such as General Imbert demolishing the fighting death myth about Trujillo and Anne Reid Cabral's true story of her brother's death, real involvement, and aspects of the real path of trujillo's pistol(which Diederich had given an almost hyper-romantic bent)).

As far as further revelations go, the "Oliver Stone conspiracy" angle, there's nothing. Nothing. The story is out.I think this a good way to sum it up: A group of extremely brave people, most who had never met, and would never meet, all embarked on a mission to bring down a dictator. Thousands of people were involved in many different efforts(Dominican exile invaders, IJ4 members, the Mirabals included, rebel elements of the Dominican armed forces, and agents of foreign governments). Most failed and some paid for that failure with their lives. A small group finally succeeded, and most them were killed in the aftermath. Now, 47 years later, the survivors, those left behind, are trying to set the record straight. End of story.

 

[catcherintherye]

It's really swell you have interviewed people, something you have mentioned innumerable times. Good for you! However, that accomplishment by itself really doesn't qualify you for much of anything, aside from demonstrating you like to talk to people. So, why don't you share your credentials with us. Since you are constantly depicting others as being deficient in history, I think you should show us how it is you are so eminently qualified to judge.

Why do you continually attempt to discredit the Mirabals by denying a connection to Trujillo's murder? No one on this thread said anything about any such connection being the reason they are historically important. At least I never stated that. In fact, as you may recall, I said the killing of Truijllo was a sidebar to what was happening at the time. The Mirabals comprised a much larger force in historical terms.

And please give me an example of my personal attacks on you. I don't recall any such attack, other than questioning the validity of your claims. It seems you get a tad testy when your proclamations are brought into question. And please explain exactly why I should have chosen my words more carefully. If you were somhow offended by my few well-chosen words, then you are way too sensitive to be posting your own revised history of the Dominican Republic.

You mention those left behaid trying to set the record straight. What exactly about the record needs to straightened out. Perhaps we should take down all the street signs honoring the Mirabals? Or maybe replace their pictures on the 200 peso bill with someone more deserving, a past dictator perhaps?

Your agenda seems abundantly clear. From your collection of Truijllo memorabilia to your disregard for historical facts, you obviously prefer a return to the "good old days." You seem to be a perfect fit for that past.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Here we go again.

It's really swell you have interviewed people, something you have mentioned innumerable times. Good for you! However, that accomplishment by itself really doesn't qualify you for much of anything, aside from demonstrating you like to talk to people. So, why don't you share your credentials with us. Since you are constantly depicting others as being deficient in history, I think you should show us how it is you are so eminently qualified to judge.

Why do you continually attempt to discredit the Mirabals by denying a connection to Trujillo's murder? No one on this thread said anything about any such connection being the reason they are historically important. At least I never stated that. In fact, as you may recall, I said the killing of Truijllo was a sidebar to what was happening at the time. The Mirabals comprised a much larger force in historical terms.

And please give me an example of my personal attacks on you. I don't recall any such attack, other than questioning the validity of your claims. It seems you get a tad testy when your proclamations are brought into question. And please explain exactly why I should have chosen my words more carefully. If you were somhow offended by my few well-chosen words, then you are way too sensitive to be posting your own revised history of the Dominican Republic.

You mention those left behaid trying to set the record straight. What exactly about the record needs to straightened out. Perhaps we should take down all the street signs honoring the Mirabals? Or maybe replace their pictures on the 200 peso bill with someone more deserving, a past dictator perhaps?

Your agenda seems abundantly clear. From your collection of Truijllo memorabilia to your disregard for historical facts, you obviously prefer a return to the "good old days." You seem to be a perfect fit for that past.

You're out of your mind.

Since when did I say people should take down signs honoring the Mirabals? reread the things your wrote about me, you don't think they qualify as personal attacks? Are you serious?

How have I disregarded historical facts? (Even if I had, I doubt you would realize it.) You are totally pathetic.

What is the connection between the Mirabal murders and Trujillo's? I don't see it. I really don't. Let's put it this way. If the Mirabals hadn't been killed, would Trujillo have avoided the action team that night on the road? I don't believe so. The motives of the assassins predated the Mirabal murders. That's a fact. Antonio de la Maza wanted revenge for his brother's murder. I really don'tr know what else to say on this.

I'm not trying to "discredit" the Mirabals. That's idioitic. That people have chosen to honor them is their choice. They could have easily put the faces of the assassins on Peso notes, it would be fine with me. I have no objection to the Mirabals being honored. None. When did I say any of this?

You haven't read any books on this beside the Alverez book, have you?

You don't have a clue about the actual assassination at all. I can only repeat what i've said earlier. There's nothing in the history books that backs what your saying.

How are the Mirabals a much larger force in history than the killing of Trujillo? Your argument seems totally emotional-with little(If any) relation to the historical facts. I don't follow your arguments at all. Claiming that the people who killed Trujillo did it to protect their assets. What? Did it ever occur to you that others might have worked against Trujillo for unselfish motives?

This is pointless. You're worse than Mirador ever was.

As for my private life. It stays private.

Why don't you come up with some facts to disprove what I've posted. How am I a Trujillista? Because I'm willing to look at the whole picture and not resort to simple demonization of Trujillo?

Trujillo was not universally hated, he wasn't. I hate to break it to you. I interviewed some people(not involved in the assassination) that actually liked him. When I was at General Imbert's house, I met several prominent people. One of them said something I found interesting. We were talking about Trujillo's personality, and suddenly he said, "I liked him." Then he paused, and said, "But then I turned against him." I will never know for sure if he said that latter statement because General Imbert was in the room or not. I wish I had interviewed him privately. Trujillo had a lot of supporters. But he changed, his policies changed, and he lost support. General Arturo Espailliat wrote about this very issue in his book. Trujillo did a lot of good things for the Dominican Republic, but, as Espailliat wrote, "the price in blood and human dignity became to high".

I think it strange to make the Mirabal sisters some kind of pivotal moment in Dominican history. I really do. They were important members of IJ4(as I had written earlier) but there deaths were one of hundreds in the last year of Trujillo's rule. The pivotal moment for Trujillo was the kidnapping of Jesus Galindez, an entirely unnecessary event. That's what set off the chain of events leading to Trujillo's death.

 

[catcherintherye]

Looks like it's nap time for someone. Why don't you get a good night's sleep and perhaps you will feel better in the morning.
You do tend to get over-wrought when you're tired. There there, now.
Night night.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Looks like it's nap time for someone. Why don't you get a good night's sleep and perhaps you will feel better in the morning.
You do tend to get over-wrought when you're tired. There there, now.
Night night.

You're the one with the problem. Overwrought? Hardly. You are so immature and obnoxious, it sad to hear that someone like you is a school teacher.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

I give you credit Mr Pacheco, at least you have the balls to admit that you are an admirer of a dictator....but then again some had known that all along. It must be hard to praise the conspirators who blew away your beloved goat.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

I give you credit Mr Pacheco, at least you have the balls to admit that you are an admirer of a dictator....but then again some had known that all along. It must be hard to praise the conspirators who blew away your beloved goat.

I don't admire Trujillo. That's untrue. I'm willing to discuss him in a factual manner. Just like Robert Crassweller and many other historians. Have you read their books? I doubt it.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

The pivotal moment for Trujillo was the kidnapping of Jesus Galindez, an entirely unnecessary event. That's what set off the chain of events leading to Trujillo's death.

Yes one of the pivotal moments indeed, but from what I've read none of the conspirators mentioned him or were motivated by his kidnapping, torture and murder. In the interviews you did, I'm pretty sure Galindez name was not even mentioned. Now does that lessened his impact on the demise of the dictatorship. I don't think so. In my estimation Galindez personal knowledge of the workings of the dictatorship exposed it for what it really was in minute details. This man who once worked in the so called "benefactors" dictatorship had to be eliminated because of the truth he wrote about it.

What I'm getting at is that even if the conspirators were not motivated by what happened to Galindez, that does not negate the significance of what his kidnapping and murder have on the the demise of Trujillo's dictatorship. Why not the same for the Mirabals?

As far as it being an unnecessary event, it was necessary. Guess what, that is the normal operating procedure of dictators. Its one of the ways they stay in power.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

OMG-part 27

Yes one of the pivotal moments indeed, but from what I've read none of the conspirators mentioned him or were motivated by his kidnapping, torture and murder. In the interviews you did, I'm pretty sure Galindez name was not even mentioned. Now does that lessened his impact on the demise of the dictatorship. I don't think so. In my estimation Galindez personal knowledge of the workings of the dictatorship exposed it for what it really was in minute details. This man who once worked in the so called "benefactors" dictatorship had to be eliminated because of the truth he wrote about it.

What I'm getting at is that even if the conspirators were not motivated by what happened to Galindez, that does not negate the significance of what his kidnapping and murder have on the the demise of Trujillo's dictatorship. Why not the same for the Mirabals?

As far as it being an unnecessary event, it was necessary. Guess what, that is the normal operating procedure of dictators. Its one of the ways they stay in power.

You have no understanding of what happened with Galindez, do you?

Some of the people I interviewed did mention him. It was not outrage at what happened to Galindez that drove some of the assassins(namely, the entire de la Maza clan-the other brothers were supposed to take part in the ambush, but I'm sure Hildago knew that) but the murder of Antonio de la Maza's brother in an attempt by Trujillo to cover the kidnapping up. That's what set the chain of events off.

The kidnapping was entirely unnecessary because Jesus Galindez was a virtually unknown figure(outside of some Latin American and Basque circles) before the kidnapping. His thesis, "The Era of Trujillo" was merely an academic work. Nothing that appeared in the thesis was really new. The thesis literally became one of the best selling doctornal thesis of all time due to the notority of the Galindez kidnapping. If Trujillo had left Galindez alone, the Columbia University lecturer had a good chance of fading into obscurity.

You really need to hit the books.

 

[GringoCArlos]

Why doesn't Golo come back and add 2 pesos?

Where, oh where is Golo when you need him? I'm sure that he could contribute a lot to this discussion.

 

[GringoCArlos]

Have you changed your mind, Ogre??

Just wondering.
--------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ogre of the Caribbean on 12-18-2004:
QUOTE:

Antonio De La Maza had a reputation for the love of whiskey, women,and his large farm in Moca, in that order. Nothing I have read says that De La Maza was a rapist. I have been researching this accusation and have not been able to find any information to support that allegation, on the contrary, the readings I have seen point to the fact that De La Maza was deeply upset by Trujillo's treatment women, especially the vicious murder of the Mirabal Sister's by SIM agents in 1960.

The circumstances of their killing is well known to most Dominicans now. The sisters were ambushed, driven into the mountains with their driver, and taken into a sugar cane field. There a hand picked squad of SIM dragged the sisters off into different parts of the sugar cane. All the sister's had there arms tied behind their backs. One of the sister's managed to break free and run back to the road, attempting to flag down a car to help her, she was dragged back screaming and crying. Moments later, Maria Teresa,apparently under going a sexual assault, started screaming "You can kill me but you're not going to rape me!" The commander of the SIM unit, Sergeant de la Rosa ,shouted for the soldier to just hurry up and kill her. The women were all brutally beaten to death with clubs, dragged back to their car, and pushed off a cliff. The Dominican government declared it a tragic auto acident, but most people knew this was a Trujillo ordered murder.

The killing of the Mirabal sisters sent deep shock waves through Dominican society. This particular crime, the murder of defenseless women, rattled people more than any of Trujillo's numerous atrocities. It was something that affected the Dominican sense of Machismo. It also upset der la Maza who told Salvador Estrella Sadhala, "this is an outrage! Look at what they are doing to women now!" he continued, "We must do something to finish this madman."
------------------------------------------------------

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

No, I haven't cahnged my mind. We discussed this same point earlier in the thread. de la Maza did say that, but it doesn't change the fact that his motivation for killing Trujillo was the murder of his brother, some 5 years earlier. That was the real reason. As I wrote before, perhaps the murders strengthened the resolve of the assassins, something like that, but the reason for de la Maza was and remained, the murder of his brother.

I have never read anything which points to the murders in late 1960 as being the catalyst for the killers. Diederich goes through a list of reasons for what he said were the motivations of the assassins, he doesn't list the Mirabals as a prime motive. The murder of a group of women was a shock, but beyond that, I can see no real connection.

None of the people interviewed(connected to the plot) ever mentioned the Mirabals. None of them. If the Mirabals had been the catalyst, the reason for the assassination, why did none of them mention them?

General Jose Rene Roman actually visited the sisters in prison and was upset by the conditions he found them in. Later he did join the plot, but only on the fringe of it. He had contact with only one member of the assassin group and never recruited anyone else for the plot. Deiderich claims that it was a life of constant humiliation at the hands of Trujillo, a desire for revenge or something, that motivated Roman. General Espailliat had another motive. Neither had anyhting to do with the Mirabals. Someone close to General Roman told that he felt Roman did for his country. That he could see that Trujillo was destroying the country and had to be removed form power. I don't know how much of an impact the death of the sisters motivated General Roman. Robert Crassweller claims that General Roman passed on the order to have the sisters killed. Perosnally, I doubt that version. Deiderich blames the murder of an acting SIM chief. Both hisotrians ultimately blame Trujillo for giving the actual order. General Espailliat doesn't even mention the Mirabals at all in his memoirs. I don't think this is much doubt that Trujillo gave the original order. But one person(not connected to the plot) told me he didn't believe Trujillo gave the orders to kill the Mirabals because he felt "it was against his(Trujillo's) interests".

 

[catcherintherye]

I hope you are well-rested, peque?o.
So, where were we? Ah yes, you were once again admonishing those of us who are less enlightened than yourself. Points well taken.
Since you are endowed with the requiste insight and knowledge, please present the evidence that supports your claims, other than your interviews, which have already been duly noted.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against interviews. I love them, I think they're great. But when one is claiming to argue from an historical perspective, one should be able to cite a variety of sources.
With your political agenda aside for the moment, and without delving into your personal life (god forbid), please present a bibliobraphy for your thesis, or at least a references cited page.
I know that all these requests can be trying, and may seem a bit trifling, for someone such as yourself. But please be patient with us. We are all just attempting to get up to speed on this issue.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Another person General Imbert discussed was the young ADC Amando Guerrero. Imbert told me that "Amando"(Imbert always referred to the men in the group by their first names, something I felt at the time was rather poignant) joined the plot because he had been forced to murder one of his close friends to prove his loyalty to Trujillo.

In the Diederich history book, the author does not discuss the indentity of the victim. In the book and play, FEAST OF THE GOAT, the victim's identity was revealed as not only Guerrero's friend, but also the brother of his fiancee'. General Imbert told that that story was true, not just fiction.

Look, this is what happened in the interviews. No one, but no one mentioned the Mirabals when discussing the assassination plot. Some of the relatives did dispute Diederich's description of their relatives motives, but none mentioned the Mirabals as the alternative reason.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

I hope you are well-rested, peque?o.
So, where were we? Ah yes, you were once again admonishing those of us who are less enlightened than yourself. Points well taken.
Since you are endowed with the requiste insight and knowledge, please present the evidence that supports your claims, other than your interviews, which have already been duly noted.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against interviews. I love them, I think they're great. But when one is claiming to argue from an historical perspective, one should be able to cite a variety of sources.
With your political agenda aside for the moment, and without delving into your personal life (god forbid), please present a bibliobraphy for your thesis, or at least a references cited page.
I know that all these requests can be trying, and may seem a bit trifling, for someone such as yourself. But please be patient with us. We are all just attempting to get up to speed on this issue.

So, you have never read any of the history books. Start with Bernard Diederich's "Death of the Goat". I also mentioned the Valentina book. Those books are a great start.

 

[Robert]

All very interesting. Good job guys. Closed.