In Support of the High Court Decision

[bronzeallspice]

You should care. It might be a small percentage today, but tomorrow it will be ethnic cleansing. I'm not going to give a history lesson of those instances. I'm pretty sure you know about them.

And this is what can eventually happen. Dominicans as a mixed race know this from past history.
This is the reason why we are fighting(politically for now, physically later,if we have to) to maintain out heritage.

 

[bronzeallspice]

Then they become stateless and the International will deal with it.

the children of Haitian migrants are entitled to Haitian citizenship through 'jus sanguinis;' they are not stateless when they have a legal claim to their parents' nationality.

Yes, let the international community take care of Haiti and its people. The DR has done all it can and can do no more.

Haitians are coming across as ungrateful to Dominicans and the heart of many is turning cold
towards Haitians. The more they are given, the more they want and demand.

And believe me when I say this, Haitians do not want the people to turn against them
because their lives will be made a living hell in the DR and they will have no recourse
but to flee to Haiti. It did happen a few years ago in Santiago.

 

[DominicanQuest]

And this is what can eventually happen. Dominicans as a mixed race know this from past history.
This is the reason why we are fighting(politically for now, physically later,if we have to) to maintain out heritage.

Is that that same heritage of the Tainos? I ask that because their heritage was replaced by the Dominican heritage right? One thing is for certain: the world will keep turning and your beloved heritage sooner or later be usurped by the next thing.

I am all for a country making and enforcing their own immigration laws. But heritage protection in a place like this country seems impossible, shortsighted and unnecessary. Why? Because the heritage of this country has been in flux since the beginning. It still is. The French had their say. The Haitians (who are part of the heritage of this country) had their say, the Americans are having their say.

I think some Dominicans are afraid of losing something that they never had. How many Dominicans can really trace their roots back to the Tainos?

And whose heritage did the Tainos replace?

 

[bronzeallspice]

Lawyers Protest Campaign To Legitimize Identity Fraud

Lawyer Vinicio Castillo Seman has called on the Dominican government to counteract what he described as the "slanderous and offensive international campaign" by Haitian Minister of Foreign Affairs Pierre Richard Casimir. Castillo says that the Haitian government official is spreading false information when he claims that the Dominican Constitutional Court ruling, which calls for fast-track procedures to regularize the status of Haitians living in the Dominican Republic as foreign residents and not Dominican nationals, would leave hundreds of thousands of citizens of Haitian origin stateless.

Castillo stressed that the Haitian Foreign Minister knows that the Article 11 of the Haitian Constitution establishes that "any person born to a Haitian father or Haitian mother who are themselves born Haitians and have never renounced their nationality at the time of birth has Haitian nationality of origin." Castillo said that the Constitutional Court has not removed Dominican nationality since the people concerned have not legally acquired it.

The announcement was made during a forum held to analyze the scope of Ruling 168-13 of the Constitutional Court on Dominican nationality to foreigners that took place on Sunday, 20 October. During the same forum, the participants agreed to push for the prosecution of people securing false identity papers.

Former judge Juan Miguel Castillo Pantaleon said that they would appeal to the Office of Freedom of Access to Information to request the documentation of everyone who has illicitly obtained their birth certificates and IDs, or document forgery, identity theft from living or dead persons. He said that information is public and they could prosecute those responsible. Vinicio Castillo said he does not understand why local prosecutors have not taken people who have forged documents to court. Jose Miguel Vasquez, Cristina Aguiar, Juan Manuel Rosario and Trajano Vidal Potentini also took part in the event.


DR1 Daily News -Monday, 21 October 2013 - Caribseek News

 

[bronzeallspice]

Is that that same heritage of the Tainos? I ask that because their heritage was replaced by the Dominican heritage right? One thing is for certain: the world will keep turning and your beloved heritage sooner or later be usurped by the next thing.

I am all for a country making and enforcing their own immigration laws. But heritage protection in a place like this country seems impossible, shortsighted and unnecessary. Why? Because the heritage of this country has been in flux since the beginning. It still is. The French had their say. The Haitians (who are part of the heritage of this country) had their say, the Americans are having their say.

I think some Dominicans are afraid of losing something that they never had. How many Dominicans can really trace their roots back to the Tainos?

And whose heritage did the Tainos replace?

Who's talking about Taino Heritage? What we are today as a mixed race. I am not going to
to go into the history of the DR on this thread. If you do not know what happened, I just
you read the history of both countries to understand.

We want to retain and be Dominicans as a nation and so should Haiti.

 

[bob saunders]

Is that that same heritage of the Tainos? I ask that because their heritage was replaced by the Dominican heritage right? One thing is for certain: the world will keep turning and your beloved heritage sooner or later be usurped by the next thing.

I am all for a country making and enforcing their own immigration laws. But heritage protection in a place like this country seems impossible, shortsighted and unnecessary. Why? Because the heritage of this country has been in flux since the beginning. It still is. The French had their say. The Haitians (who are part of the heritage of this country) had their say, the Americans are having their say.

I think some Dominicans are afraid of losing something that they never had. How many Dominicans can really trace their roots back to the Tainos?

And whose heritage did the Tainos replace?

Perhaps a deeper study of Dominican history is in order. You as an non-Dominican really can't evaluate whether the Dominicans have a heritage and culture that is in their eyes is worth saving.

 

[bronzeallspice]

I have never been to Haiti but I live in the DR. Sometimes I wonder if people here are aware of the poverty here in the DR among Dominicans, regardless of ancestry. Is this not a poor country? I mean, if the DR were to lose all remittances,drug money, and the like, where would the country be?

The idea that "we have to stop this problem or the DR will be like Haiti" sounds a lot like blaming the "other" for the problems faced in this country. Would there be 24 hour lights if there were no Haitians here? Are the Haitians the reason I see a cripple begging at every stop light? Can we blame Haitians for the fact that police officers start at $125 PER MONTH? Did Haitians prevent an effective 911 emergency service from being instituted? Did Haitians conspire to ensure there is no reliable water system here?

I do not believe this is pure racism. This is projecting one's own shortcomings on the most vulnerable and easily identifiable scapegoat. I don't doubt for a minute that if there were an influx of white Eastern Europeans in the DR, who otherwise took the same societal role as Haitians, they would be viewed similarly. What is happening here is the Haitians are being scapegoated.

P.S. I agree that a country should enforce their immigration laws. I am not opposed to sending illegals, of any nationality, back to their country of origin. But this issue has taken on at least two parallel conversations. One is an issue of immigration. One is an issue of why the DR cannot seem to break through to the next level of development. As it relates to the second issue, it does not seem Haitians are a primary cause. But, as is so often the case, some people would rather blame and complain than fix what is really wrong.

When a developing country is trying to move forward and a horde of illegals are arriving on a daily basis it is difficult for a country to move forward. The DR has spent millions on Haitians already.


Nobody is blaming Haitians for any of the above.

 

[DominicanQuest]

@Bronze and Bob

Maybe I should be using the word "culture" instead of heritage - which is defined as "Something that is passed down from preceding generations; a tradition."
The point regarding culture is that it is not a fixed concept. It is always in flux. As I said, I agree with the idea of having strong enforcement of immigration laws. I just think culure is a slippery concept. For example, Salsa music could be considered part of Dominican culture, but it was imported to this country from another. There is nothing more Dominican than platanos, and those are from the Pacific. Baseball is as American as apple pie, but Dominicans also claim it as their own.

The point is that this is a mixed land, which has very little to call "its own" as in originated here. Almost everything and everyone is from somewhere else, introduced over time. The Dominican heritage and culture, just like many, is evolving.

I know that they have a culture and heritage that is, in their eyes, worth saving. My point is that there is no way to stop the changing of the culture, and the heritage as a result. Change is inevitable. That they wish to minimize the Haitian influence on their culture goes back to needing someone to look down on. While they focus on Haitians you are seeing more and more tattoos, pink hairstyles, Mormons, and other imported styles, ideas, and religions - most of which do not cause people to fight against it and say of "I must protect my heritage!"

 

[pelaut]

Once again Dominicans honestly act exactly as they falsely accuse Americans of acting vis-a-vis the Mexican invasion of their southern border. Racist, jingoist intolerance threatening violence.

The Americans, however Latinos accuse them, do not act that way. Instead and unfortunately, the Mexican (and MidEast terrorist) invaders are met with free healthcare, food stamps, rent assistance, school stipends, tax credits (negative income tax) and a Democratic Party voter's registration card.

Com'on, Doms! Man up! Call your Valbuenas home from Nueba Jol, and have them defend your border.

 

[bronzeallspice]

These are difficult questions no? I mean, is it the legal responsibility of a country to take in refugees from a neighbor? I think without a legal framework in place - the answer (legally speaking) is no. Is it there a moral responsibility to help? I think so. But, that moral responsibility does not necessarily equate to "open the floodgates." There are cars, trucks, ships, and helicopters which can transport necessary goods and professionals to almost any site of humanitarian crisis in the world.

Also, I think your point of view undermines, at least somewhat, the idea of having a country in the first place. I mean, if it is assumed that a country is a collection of people who work together for the benefit of all its citizens, and put that benefit before the benefit of outsiders, then it is clear why the DR would not be falling all over themselves to welcome destitute people from Haiti into the country.

It's not like this country is feeding, clothing, and educating its own citizens. The DR is failing miserably. So, to say that rejecting entry to earthquake refugees is not humanitarian, in a country with little resources, is to potentially lower the status of Dominicans who are struggling to get by. Their earth quakes every morning when there is no breakfast. Their earth quakes every night when there is no luz, no water, and no food. Shouldn't they get first crack at their own resources? I don't think it is morally wrong to agree to help Haitians after the earthquake, but do so on the Haitian side of the border.

I agree with you on this.The DR made the mistake of opening the gates after the earthquake instead
of submitting aid on the Haitian side.

Dominicans blame Leonel for this.

 

[bronzeallspice]

Once again Dominicans honestly act exactly as they falsely accuse Americans of acting vis-a-vis the Mexican invasion of their southern border. Racist, jingoist intolerance threatening violence.

The Americans, however Latinos accuse them, do not act that way. Instead and unfortunately, the Mexican (and MidEast terrorist) invaders are met with free healthcare, food stamps, rent assistance, school stipends, tax credits (negative income tax) and a Democratic Party voter's registration card.

Com'on, Doms! Man up! Call your Valbuenas home from Nueba Jol, and have them defend your border.

Threatening with violence, really? I guess you are ignorant of history as to who threatened who with violence
and actually carried it out? Who fought for their independence again?

Now you people are finally understanding that Haiti and the DR share a violent history and therefore
haitians mistrust Dominicans as vice versa.

The DR has requested of the the Haitian gov't to provide documentation to Haitians to facilitate their
legal status in the DR and they have flatly refused and this is why the DR has no recourse but to do
what they are doing. No cooperation from the Haitian government whatsoever. They do not want to
meet the DR half way to sort out this problem. Haitians love to accuse Dominicans of discrimination.
but overlook the fact that their gov't by not providing them with documentation is discrimination.

But yet the DR is the bad guy.

The DR has been the only country who has stayed in solidarity with Haiti.But yet the DR is continuously
being accused by Haitians of being racist. Well, now it's easy to see why these countries will never see
eye to eye and it's best that the two countries proceed on their own course.

 

[delite]

These are difficult questions no? I mean, is it the legal responsibility of a country to take in refugees from a neighbor? I think without a legal framework in place - the answer (legally speaking) is no. Is it there a moral responsibility to help? I think so. But, that moral responsibility does not necessarily equate to "open the floodgates." There are cars, trucks, ships, and helicopters which can transport necessary goods and professionals to almost any site of humanitarian crisis in the world.

Also, I think your point of view undermines, at least somewhat, the idea of having a country in the first place. I mean, if it is assumed that a country is a collection of people who work together for the benefit of all its citizens, and put that benefit before the benefit of outsiders, then it is clear why the DR would not be falling all over themselves to welcome destitute people from Haiti into the country.

It's not like this country is feeding, clothing, and educating its own citizens. The DR is failing miserably. So, to say that rejecting entry to earthquake refugees is not humanitarian, in a country with little resources, is to potentially lower the status of Dominicans who are struggling to get by. Their earth quakes every morning when there is no breakfast. Their earth quakes every night when there is no luz, no water, and no food. Shouldn't they get first crack at their own resources? I don't think it is morally wrong to agree to help Haitians after the earthquake, but do so on the Haitian side of the border.

You obviously missed the objective of my post. I never made a litigious argument, in fact, throughout the post, my contention has always been humanitarian based. Your definition of "humanitarian" is flawed because you've interwoven it's merits to economics. Lacking funds or tools in a disaster are often reinforced by international aid organizations in order to bolster, or augment whatever is deficient at a given geographic location. Today the earthquake was centered on the Haitian side. Tomorrow, who knows?

And yes, the floodgates were open due to this crisis, as happens everywhere in this world during a disaster. The cars, trucks, helicopters, ships did reach their intended target, but the initial coordination or logistics were performed by the Dominicans for obvious reasons.

Due to the epic disaster, many of these victims were transferred to the DR because Haiti was already living with less than the basic if needs. Serious trauma cases were transferred to several hospitals on the Dominican side. Despite their history of conflicts, it was almost as though those ancient and current strives were dismissed to address this disaster of horrific proportions.

I've always stated how welcoming Dominicans are to Haitians; even though in most cases the reason being is exploitation of their labor. The border regions are also porous and the weekly bi-national markets are a great exhibitor for illegals. More control and innovative ways of thinking have to be implemented to reduce this uncontrollable influx of Haitian migrants.

Those rejected Dominicans living without breakfast, lunch, dinner, lights, water, education, employment, etc. also displayed their humanity by rescuing many Haitians seeking the most basic of needs. Imagine the latter providing for people, who overall, were in dire straits? The plum line was drawn and the sacrifice was made to render hearts instead of garments! This is humanity to the nth degree!

Of course, there were complaints by some sectors, as is their right, but overall, the kindness and generosity afforded to the Haitians was a living testimony of the warmth of the Dominicans in general.

The current discussion, again, isn't found in law books or even the laws of conventions. It's found in the hearts and souls of human beings ascending to their highest levels of morality.

 

[bronzeallspice]

All immigrants can obtain temporary residency documents




Santo Domingo.- Immigration Agency director Jos? Ricardo Taveras yesterday said all immigrants living in the country will be issued temporary residency documents until their definitive regularization through the National Plan to Regulate Foreigners.

Taveras said Immigration will not only solve the case of Haitian descendant Juliana Deguis, but all people in those circumstances, as stated in the Constitutional Court ruling on how to grant Dominican nationality.

He said to take advantage of the provision, those affected must request their birth certificate at the Central Electoral Board (JCE).

"It’s a very simple procedure. We’re waiting for Juliana to come to Immigration and obtain her ID. All who are in that situation, who complain, are going to be able to work, study and do all activities of civil life as any citizen because all the rights and duties of any foreign citizen residing legally in a country are being recognized."


http://www.dominicantoday.com/

 

[K-Mel]

You have entered into a different discussion. The african countries you listed have natural resources that could be used to make them more advanced countries, but they are not financially wealthy countries....mainly because of population size versus actual income from said resources.


UAE is an exception and not a a good example for what is being discussed here.

UAE masively import workers because it has enormous wealth, a small native population and a lot of work available.

Africa is drowning with people looking for work...and would only need expats for certain skilled positions.

84% expats...where in africa or anywhere else outside these oil producing little states do you see anything remotely close to such a situation....or the conditions conducive to such a situation?

And where did you get that information that africa has more billionaires than latin-america? please point us to that list. Every list I have seen shows africa especially black africa far behind other regions.

As for the naturalization process, my post reads "they can apply" not that they get it automatically. But since you are in the country.....find out directly from government sources and let us know.

Lot of BS as usual Gwo...Just take Dubai, what are the resources to be found there ? Please tell me ( even Google won't help you on that one...) ?

I won't waste my time arguing with you on this point, but you could have a look at this book, MAY BE you'll see the light :

Neo-Colonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism: Kwame Nkrumah: 9780717801404: Amazon.com: Books

Africa is the wealthiest continent down earth and your disdainful comments won't change anything to this fact. From North to south, East to West :Gringos are all over there the doing and enjoying their lives.

A guy from Ivory Coast or the DR will not enjoy a nice hot chocolate or Belgium Chocolate when they growed that plant for others people to enjoy it. Gas is cheap for every Emirati...And Emiratis set the right laws/controls for that situation to be happened...

Here is the proof for the billionnaires :

L'Afrique compte 55 milliardaires, plus que l

Now back to topic...

 

[DominicanQuest]

The current discussion, again, isn't found in law books or even the laws of conventions. It's found in the hearts and souls of human beings ascending to their highest levels of morality.

Yea. I addressed the legal and moral aspects of the tragedy response. I was not here after the earthquake, so I cannot comment. I can say that Dominicans seem to be helpful in general. I have seen many acts of kindness in my time here, and have been the recipient of more than a few. I have literally seen people run to a car crash to help, and I have and I have seen them mount a half-dead pasola rider in the back of truck in order to take him to the hospital after an accident.

But I still believe in a country's right to their own immigration standards and right to kick out people who did not enter legally.

 

[mountainannie]

Lawyers Protest Campaign To Legitimize Identity Fraud

Lawyer Vinicio Castillo Seman has called on the Dominican government to counteract what he described as the "slanderous and offensive international campaign" by Haitian Minister of Foreign Affairs Pierre Richard Casimir. Castillo says that the Haitian government official is spreading false information when he claims that the Dominican Constitutional Court ruling, which calls for fast-track procedures to regularize the status of Haitians living in the Dominican Republic as foreign residents and not Dominican nationals, would leave hundreds of thousands of citizens of Haitian origin stateless.

Castillo stressed that the Haitian Foreign Minister knows that the Article 11 of the Haitian Constitution establishes that "any person born to a Haitian father or Haitian mother who are themselves born Haitians and have never renounced their nationality at the time of birth has Haitian nationality of origin." Castillo said that the Constitutional Court has not removed Dominican nationality since the people concerned have not legally acquired it.

The announcement was made during a forum held to analyze the scope of Ruling 168-13 of the Constitutional Court on Dominican nationality to foreigners that took place on Sunday, 20 October. During the same forum, the participants agreed to push for the prosecution of people securing false identity papers.

Former judge Juan Miguel Castillo Pantaleon said that they would appeal to the Office of Freedom of Access to Information to request the documentation of everyone who has illicitly obtained their birth certificates and IDs, or document forgery, identity theft from living or dead persons. He said that information is public and they could prosecute those responsible. Vinicio Castillo said he does not understand why local prosecutors have not taken people who have forged documents to court. Jose Miguel Vasquez, Cristina Aguiar, Juan Manuel Rosario and Trajano Vidal Potentini also took part in the event.


DR1 Daily News -Monday, 21 October 2013 - Caribseek News

ok .,. but let us take the case in point of the said plaintiff Julianne Dequise.. born here. With no citizenship now.. but a temporary permit to live here. . who is entitled herself to Haitian citizenship under the Haitian Constitution. But

her FOUR children.. born here .. are NOT entitled to Haitian citizenship under the Haitian constitution. Since she was not born in Haiti.

This is the issue of Stateless persons that has been growing here in the Dominican Republic. And, I believe the issue that the Court and the President wish to address.

If they are given some sort of "alien" registration card.. well.. no, that is not going to work for the children since they have NO rights to vote in Haiti. They are stateless then?

I do not know how the President and the commission are going to deal with these second and third and fourth generation ...chchildren.

Giving them "alien" registration.. without the right to vote is not going to work since the issue of nationalty is clearly tied to the right to vote.

 

[delite]

Yea. I addressed the legal and moral aspects of the tragedy response. I was not here after the earthquake, so I cannot comment. I can say that Dominicans seem to be helpful in general. I have seen many acts of kindness in my time here, and have been the recipient of more than a few. I have literally seen people run to a car crash to help, and I have and I have seen them mount a half-dead pasola rider in the back of truck in order to take him to the hospital after an accident.

But I still believe in a country's right to their own immigration standards and right to kick out people who did not enter legally.

Then we are debating apples and oranges. I should preface by saying, even though this is a public forum, my post was actually directed to Gwozozo, whom I share a mutual respect for.

Of course I'm in favor of a country's right to their own immigration law - that's a guarantee! You and I don't share a history, hence, the tad bit of confusion. As an introduction, I'm in favor of deporting every single illegal Haitian currently residing in DR. However, I'm against uprooting Dominicans of Haitian ancestry; as in the imprudence of this recent ruling by the TC.

 

[bronzeallspice]

ok .,. but let us take the case in point of the said plaintiff Julianne Dequise.. born here. With no citizenship now.. but a temporary permit to live here. . who is entitled herself to Haitian citizenship under the Haitian Constitution. But

her FOUR children.. born here .. are NOT entitled to Haitian citizenship under the Haitian constitution. Since she was not born in Haiti.

This is the issue of Stateless persons that has been growing here in the Dominican Republic. And, I believe the issue that the Court and the President wish to address.

If they are given some sort of "alien" registration card.. well.. no, that is not going to work for the children since they have NO rights to vote in Haiti. They are stateless then?

I do not know how the President and the commission are going to deal with these second and third and fourth generation ...chchildren.

Giving them "alien" registration.. without the right to vote is not going to work since the issue of nationalty is clearly tied to the right to vote.

Let's wait and see what they have in mind because according to my understanding they have a solution
but is not being disclosed at the present time.

One problem at a time is being taken care of.

 

[bronzeallspice]

This is the latest news:

Danilo tells ambassadors reach Constitutional Court ruling

The President will meet with 14 ambassadors from different countries in Latin America



SANTO DOMINGO. - President Danilo Medina began a series of meetings with the ambassadors accredited to explain Dominican Republic on Regularization of Foreigners Plan and other measures set out in the judgment of the Constitutional Court 168-13. To that end, yesterday the first president met with the ambassadors of the European Union located hoyse met with 16 ambassadors from Latin America, explained the Minister of Interior and Police and who chairs the Migration Board, Jos? Ram?n Fadul. Medina also met with the Dominican ambassador in Washington, Anibal de Castro and to the United Nations, Virgilio Alc?ntara. was also reported by telephone to the Dominican ambassador to the Organization of American States, Peter Belliard. 's government and relevant institutions are welcoming the agenda set by the Constitutional Court to enforce the judgment 168-13, September 23, the consequences desnacionalizar?an thousands of descendants of foreigners born in Dominican Republic. 's National Immigration Council agreed, within no more than 60 days , develop the Plan Regularization of Foreigners, while the Central Electoral Board shall submit within 30 days a report on the impact of the decision in relation to foreigners registered in the registration system, both in his capacity as irregular regular. Both requirements are contained in sections seven six of the judgment of the TC.


Danilo explica a embajadores alcance de sentencia Tribunal Constitucional - DiarioLibre.com

 

[Castle]

The government should crackdown on all the companies "celebrating" Halloween today. After all, that goes against dominican heritage. For once, I'd agree with them if they did.