Inefficiency of the Dominican Economy

keepcoming

Moderator - Living & General Stuff
May 25, 2011
4,797
2,562
113
Everything I ask my mother in-law comes with the answer "si Dios quiere". I mean everything. That is just the way she knows to answer. " Are you going to La Sirena tomorrow, si Dios quiere" is her answer. Use to bother me because I am one of those people who need a yes or no answer but I got use to it. But to this day if I ask her something and she answers me "si Dios quiere or Dios que sabe" I always say ok but " yo necisita sabe " (more or less).
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
893
113
Santiago de Los 30 Caballeros
Probably something everybody is aware of, but I was just thinking about it today while driving from a client to my home. In the middle of the afternoon I see men everywhere doing nothing, walking around in casual clothes, sitting with some other guys talking and laughing and I'm not talking about a barrio but sectors like Millon, Evaristo Morales.

When I have to go somewhere early in the morning (before 7am) I see the street full of people going to their jobs: 80% women (were are the men?! they appear a few hours later in the streets doing nothing). Besides there are many men having jobs that are completely unproductive: watchmen, messengers (why does this economy still needs so many messengers, its about time to modernize the paymentsystem, fase out the use of checks and reorganize the economy to be able to generate real jobs for al those people sitting around.

Our maid comes from San Cristobal. I was bringing her to Pintura this week, for her to drop of some notebooks for her daughters, she started fighting with her husband on the phone while I was bringing her (about money). Later I ask her if her husband works. answer: Claro! he works in the weekend as a watchman in for some building and 1 day in the week he collect money for someone....THAT'S HIS JOB??? Letting his wife work from monday till friday long days in the capital and be at home the whole week sitting in the colmado doing (almost) nothing?

My homecountry is a small country, having about 16,000,000 habitants and a GNP of USD770 billion. Why does DR that has 10,000,000 habitants only a GNP of USD37 billion. I know I am comparing a wealthy developed country with a country in development, but that s about 5%. Keeping in mind that my country does hardly have any natural resources and DR does.

I'm afraid that what's wrong with the DR has to do a lot with mentality. As long as a great part of the population is conformist and not willing to do something to improve their situation, this country is going to stay the way it is, with an economy that's always in crisis, the few people that DO want to work (and the few people whose ancestors did) are doing well and will keep developing, while the rest will stay what they are: poor.

No. I get it. These idioms that you say are meaningless have a powerful influence on the culture, albeit subconsciously. Do you understand fatalism? It's the the idea that one is powerless to change the outcome of one's life. The advantages of planning and being proactive are not understood. Responsibility is not taken for one's action or inaction. Soy como soy. You are correct, most Dominicans are not devout in their inherited beliefs, but just look around and you'll see messages everywhere(on guaguas, buses, stores, restaurants, the highways, etc.) that are indicative of a culture that's counting on someone else to fix what's broken.


Says the person that comes from a country with a sh*t load of unhappy people, even when they have it all (or so they think).

Fatalism? DR? Wrong country, culture and people!

DR has not EVER nor will it expect or wait for somebody from the outside to FIX our problems!

We're not Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cuba, Venezuela, Italy, Spain, Greece, etc...

We are, after all, the ONLY country (since the vatican doesn't count as anything like it) to have the white cross with the bible in the middle of it in the national flag!

We accept other people's religions and don't force ours to them in our country. We are a very welcoming and friendly people that will say good morning to complete strangers in the streets (imagine that!).

We looooooooooooove and respect our elders like polished gold and diamonds.

We don't think that we must work until we hit the late 60's to then retire on our nests, but with a body which life will flicker as a candle on the wind. We work until we satisfy our needs, not our greed.

For foreign people that come from their work till you drop dead rich or die trying first world countries, seeing people that take it easy and roll with the moments is a big shock and resulting mystery!

Here you can be yourself, not matter if you own half the country's riches or only a banana peel to cover your private parts. Share a table with the big man or the poorest folks.

But you can't see that, for that's something you have never had since birth where you came from...

We're a country with marked inequalities, but where people MUST mingle together no matter where their economic status falls in society. Try that in your first world of richness!

The powerless ones are foreigners from their rich first world countries, that see with their eyes what they only know of their world, and see the DR and people like easy fish and complacent to all that goes around.

We're far more than just Presidentes Frias and Merengue...

But that's o.k.! Since you are a foreigner that only knows/understand what you were born into...
 

bob saunders

Platinum
Jan 1, 2002
32,583
6,005
113
dr1.com
Another issue which a Dominican pointed out to me once is that the population has yet to see a connection between education and work. The system is WHO you know, not WHAT you know. If your family is not pegado, does not have connections, then you are stuck in the same place as your parents.

Salaries are paltry, few pay even a living wage .. which the guys who did that factory in Altagracia pegged at $550 for a family of four. Police do not make that. Shop girls do not make that. Lots of office workers do not make that.

I have a friend who is bilingual, almost graduated from college, who worked for an international shipping company .. 9 to 5 and some Saturdays.. He made that.

I can understand why they just sit. Lots just sit on their motoconchos.

or at the domino tables.

Women are perhaps just more used to working long and hard hours for close to nothing.... that is what most of the women in the world do.

My wife's mother has a grade six education ( because at that time the local school only went to Grade six). Many of her friends parents were in the same situation. My wife has several University degrees, as do many of her friends and many are successful business people or professionals. Jarabacoa is filled with people whose children have graduated from University. Unfortunately many had to leave to pursue careers as the town isn't that big and unemployment is as bad as the rest of the DR. 90 % of the Dominicans that send their children to Yris's school have to make sacrifices to do so. I think they make the connection between education and success.
 

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
16,350
1,358
113
elizabetheames.blogspot.com
the universities now have more women than men.. Women here seem to get it. The men, not so much

but I feel that way about my country to.

And to be REALLY well off.. then you have to get a good job in government, preferrably one where you do not have to show up;

I had a friend who taught at Dominico Americana who said HER students, the boys in particular, mainly wanted to go into politics "for a few years, just enough to get rich"

And another friend who taught at another upscale bilingual school who said that more than one of his students told him "I do not have to study. We are rich"
 
Dec 26, 2011
8,071
0
0
Says the person that comes from a country with a sh*t load of unhappy people, even when they have it all (or so they think).

Fatalism? DR? Wrong country, culture and people!

DR has not EVER nor will it expect or wait for somebody from the outside to FIX our problems!

We're not Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cuba, Venezuela, Italy, Spain, Greece, etc...

We are, after all, the ONLY country (since the vatican doesn't count as anything like it) to have the white cross with the bible in the middle of it in the national flag!

We accept other people's religions and don't force ours to them in our country. We are a very welcoming and friendly people that will say good morning to complete strangers in the streets (imagine that!).

We looooooooooooove and respect our elders like polished gold and diamonds.

We don't think that we must work until we hit the late 60's to then retire on our nests, but with a body which life will flicker as a candle on the wind. We work until we satisfy our needs, not our greed.

For foreign people that come from their work till you drop dead rich or die trying first world countries, seeing people that take it easy and roll with the moments is a big shock and resulting mystery!

Here you can be yourself, not matter if you own half the country's riches or only a banana peel to cover your private parts. Share a table with the big man or the poorest folks.

But you can't see that, for that's something you have never had since birth where you came from...

We're a country with marked inequalities, but where people MUST mingle together no matter where their economic status falls in society. Try that in your first world of richness!

The powerless ones are foreigners from their rich first world countries, that see with their eyes what they only know of their world, and see the DR and people like easy fish and complacent to all that goes around.

We're far more than just Presidentes Frias and Merengue...

But that's o.k.! Since you are a foreigner that only knows/understand what you were born into...

You continue to be confused about who I am and my knowledge of and involvement with RD. You're equally confused about the meaning of the word fatalism. Es la creencia en el hado. Capiche?
 
Dec 26, 2011
8,071
0
0
For those who believe, our God has a plan for each and every one of us; plain simple.

It is not a fatalistic behavior, it is that we accept whatever plans God has setout for us.
If we get to wake up the next day, it is because he so intended.

You've just done a pretty decent job of describing fatalism. Thank you.
 

bob saunders

Platinum
Jan 1, 2002
32,583
6,005
113
dr1.com
the universities now have more women than men.. Women here seem to get it. The men, not so much

but I feel that way about my country to.

And to be REALLY well off.. then you have to get a good job in government, preferrably one where you do not have to show up;

I had a friend who taught at Dominico Americana who said HER students, the boys in particular, mainly wanted to go into politics "for a few years, just enough to get rich"

And another friend who taught at another upscale bilingual school who said that more than one of his students told him "I do not have to study. We are rich"

Technicians of almost any type are more required and make more money that University Grads. Men prefer these schools to Universities. My son has been making $60 per hour working in manholes cleaning out 8 inch pipes with high PSI air. The same applys to the DR.
 

kdolo

New member
Mar 9, 2009
367
6
0
All or most of DRs economic problems are caused by government. Human beings typically respond to their immediate environment depending upon the incentives.

The reality is that inefficiency of government and its overly onerous regulation and taxation and instability of Rule of Law make it hard for capital formation to take place. And if you want the economy to grow their must be a regime that is friendly to investment and capital.

When most "educated" people aspire to a government job rather than build or own a business, the society has a problem (as the US is experiencing now), government creates no value in and of itself and is a cost and parasite on productive forces - small firms, entrepreneurs -. Entrenched interests collude with politicians to create regulation that stifles innovation.

DR should look to places like Hong Kong for inspiration. Rule of Law, low taxation, non-onerous regulation,small government foot print - this will attract capital and the hungriest will be incentivized to produce - work will be properly rewarded in the market.
 

nas

Bronze
Jul 1, 2009
559
1
18
I was poor, but my mother who never finished high school, made sure all her children had an education. My mother sacrificed herself to send us to private school to make sure we were educated.

I can’t fathom how people who has traveled the world, people with visas, who are not trapped in the island could have such a myopic vision of their surroundings.
 
Dec 26, 2011
8,071
0
0
My wife's says these Catholic idioms all the time but it's like a reflex action kind of like North Americans saying Sorry, excuse me. As far as fatalistic my wife is anything but. She works hard and is always looking to the future and trys to teach all her students that their future is what they make of it. She has a lot of sucessful former students so perhaps her message gets through. There are plenty of Dominicans that have a plan A, and plan B, and are looking for ways to get ahead. Many are religious and hrd working and the religion is not a deterent.

Your wife sounds like an exceptional person. Very happy for you. And please don't mistake my comments for saying that Dominicans are lazy. My ex-wife is one of the hardest-working individuals that I know. My gf works about fifty hours a week for 100$US. And she's proud of it.
 

yapask1

New member
Jul 23, 2012
477
0
0
For sure - one objective of government is peoples happiness - and this does not equate to burger flippers with 3 cars, mcMansions consuming vast amounts of the Worlds resources etc.

US type economies are inefficient - vast production, vast use of resources, vast landfill sites for the disgarded products.

Advanced economies have made strides to distribute work fairly - e.g. France with 35 hour week, retirement at 55-60.

So probably the DR economy is quite efficient - little waste of the Worlds resources and much re-use of products.

Gross national happiness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shopping malls rather than markets are inefficient; cars rather than bicycles are inefficient.

Social Democracy and Happiness

So of course we should be glad that people work just a little , protect the environment, do not waste time studying trivial degrees etc.

Of course on a lot of measures DR is a more efficient economy than the US.

Each person in the DR creates 0.59 tons of carbon emission.

Chart: carbon dioxide emissions for Dominican Republic

US is super inefficient with over 5 tons.

Chart: carbon dioxide emissions for United States of America

So of course DR has still much progress to be made - more use of bicycles, trains, more efficient appliances, optimized agriculture saving imports by ship etc.

Yes the rich should try not to consume much either.

But the DR is still quite efficient and when fossil fuel power stations close down will become more so.

yapask1


the universities now have more women than men.. Women here seem to get it. The men, not so much

but I feel that way about my country to.

And to be REALLY well off.. then you have to get a good job in government, preferrably one where you do not have to show up;

I had a friend who taught at Dominico Americana who said HER students, the boys in particular, mainly wanted to go into politics "for a few years, just enough to get rich"

And another friend who taught at another upscale bilingual school who said that more than one of his students told him "I do not have to study. We are rich"
 

Aguaita29

Silver
Jul 27, 2011
2,621
275
83
Holy Tamale!! Yes, I confess I had a little tamale altar that I prayed to every night before going to bed but my cousin ate it. How inconsiderate!

"Si Dios Quiere" has the same value as "Hopefully". You guys are just trying to make sense of an expression that you don't understand just like an ESL student who's trying to make sense of an English idiom; He doesn't get it, and it's kind of upsetting because " It should be just like in Spanish."

So how about those people who say "El Diabloooo!!!", Do you think they are calling the devil? When a guy says that a woman "est? mas buena que el Diablooo", does this mean he loves the Devil and that he thinks the Devil is good?

For many people "Si Dios quiere" doesn't really carry that mystical connotation that some here think.
 

kdolo

New member
Mar 9, 2009
367
6
0
Men and women are different. Women value Security (sometimes overly so) at all costs. Therefore the prospect of stable, regular albeit low income is something that they can deal with - they will find a way to make due with low income so long as it is regular. Plus, they find it easier to work in "helper" capacity: secretary, assistant, low level functionary etc. - non frontline production, under a boss with little or no chance at advancement or large earning increase.

Men value opportunity - the instinct for security for security sake is not as well defined. Hence, they prefer jobs were there is some real opportunity for advancement either in compensation or responsibility. Furthermore, men have an independent streak - ...the work has to some space for individual male expression - free from direct boss oversight all the time: sales, construction, etc... - if the work doesnt appear to have this, men will rather not work too much at all....especially where salaries are low. This dynamics is easily seen in depresses areas in the US where women find jobs as secretaries, paralegals, nannies, functionaries, etc........ and the men, where there no mor factory/manufacturing jobs subconsciously decide to be "underemployed".

Employers understand this as well - they tend not to hire men for the female type jobs because they know the men really wont be content - and prefer to hire immigrants (who wont make demands for increase responsibility and wages) - for low level/starter level jobs.
 

Aguaita29

Silver
Jul 27, 2011
2,621
275
83
Everything I ask my mother in-law comes with the answer "si Dios quiere". I mean everything. That is just the way she knows to answer. " Are you going to La Sirena tomorrow, si Dios quiere" is her answer. Use to bother me because I am one of those people who need a yes or no answer but I got use to it. But to this day if I ask her something and she answers me "si Dios quiere or Dios que sabe" I always say ok but " yo necisita sabe " (more or less).

Why does that bother you so much? Would you like her to change her answers for you? Think about this: Wouldn't it be horrible if she wanted you to include "Si Dios quiere" on all of your answers?
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
40,964
936
113
For sure - one objective of government is peoples happiness -

yapask1
Oh, puh leeeeeze.

The purpose of gubmint is the equal application of constitutional law.

You cannot define "people's happiness" without subjective bias.
 
Dec 26, 2011
8,071
0
0
Holy Tamale!! Yes, I confess I had a little tamale altar that I prayed to every night before going to bed but my cousin ate it. How inconsiderate!

"Si Dios Quiere" has the same value as "Hopefully". You guys are just trying to make sense of an expression that you don't understand just like an ESL student who's trying to make sense of an English idiom; He doesn't get it, and it's kind of upsetting because " It should be just like in Spanish."

So how about those people who say "El Diabloooo!!!", Do you think they are calling the devil? When a guy says that a woman "est? mas buena que el Diablooo", does this mean he loves the Devil and that he thinks the Devil is good?

For many people "Si Dios quiere" doesn't really carry that mystical connotation that some here think.

Fatalism pervades Dominican culture. Read up on the connection made between fatalism and the acceptance of domestic abuse by women in RD and other Latin American countries. Dominicans, women in particular, tend to think their spouses are provided by God. Therefore, good or bad, hay que aguantar lo que sea. Fatalism also presents a challenge to health-care workers when treating cancer patients. A study was done on exactly this. The subjects were dominicanas in NY.
 

Aguaita29

Silver
Jul 27, 2011
2,621
275
83
Dominicans, women in particular, tend to think their spouses are provided by God. Therefore, good or bad, hay que aguantar lo que sea. Fatalism also presents a challenge to health-care workers when treating cancer patients. A study was done on exactly this. The subjects were dominicanas in NY.

I am Dominican and I have never thought that spouses are provided by God, nor have I ever even heard that in my family!
 

nas

Bronze
Jul 1, 2009
559
1
18
Fatalism pervades Dominican culture. Read up on the connection made between fatalism and the acceptance of domestic abuse by women in RD and other Latin American countries. Dominicans, women in particular, tend to think their spouses are provided by God. Therefore, good or bad, hay que aguantar lo que sea. Fatalism also presents a challenge to health-care workers when treating cancer patients. A study was done on exactly this. The subjects were dominicanas in NY.

Tu si eres disparatoso!
 

yapask1

New member
Jul 23, 2012
477
0
0
Oh, puh leeeeeze.

The purpose of gubmint is the equal application of constitutional law.

You cannot define "people's happiness" without subjective bias.

Goverments put in place frameworks whereby people can lead happy lives.

Many different areas.

Working hours etc.
\

From...

Time use and happiness


Time use studies provide information on the work-life balance of individuals in society. They provide information on the number of hours an individual spends on work and other activities, such as socializing with family and friends, sports, and other leisure activities. Imbalance in time allocation between work and other activities is caused by a number of factors among which the increased number of work hours is the most prominent. An increase in work hours, in turn, is, among other factors, caused by one’s desire to make more money. Money becomes the focus or the driving force behind long hours of work for many individuals. These individuals exaggerate the importance of money for their well-being, and they get into a situation of what has been called “focusing illusion”. As they devote more time to work they do not find time to do things that they enjoy. Such people are not happier but are much more stressed than others (Kahneman et al. 2006). The European Quality of Life Survey of 2003 revealed a strong correlation between time use and subjective well-being. In most of the countries covered by the survey, it was found that people who had long work hours and poor work-life balance generally had low subjective well-being (B?hnke 2005).As individuals juggle to do so many things, they easily become stressed. Research has documented a series of stress related impacts on the health of workers. Workers in high-strain jobs have been shown to have a higher variety of disease than their fellow workers who are not or are less stressed. Cardiovascular disease, gastro-intestinal disorders, musculoskeletal problems, and the immune system are all affected by stress. Behavioural problems such as poor relations with colleagues, absenteeism, and loss of self-confidence and self-esteem are often caused by stress. All these consequences affect both the actual as well as the perceived well-being of individuals.


There is a bias in saying that someone working 40 hours a week is likely to be happier than someone working 90 hours a week on average.


Why not?

yapask1