I feel that it’s worst in the US because in the US even if you come from good stock and if you are a person of color you are still treated with prejudice or discrimination. Your education, background or having money means nothing. I have never been to the DR, but I would imagine that it's not a prejudice issue but class issue.
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Is the DR more or less classist than the United States?
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MizCreant said, "I don't think that you will be able to convince Conde Rice or Tiger Woods of that."
Convince them of what???????????
If you are going to input into our debates then you must explain yourself a little. After 9 pages of baliwack I can't tell if you are disagreeing with the OP or LatinGuyNY or someone in between.
Rick
Convince them of what???????????
If you are going to input into our debates then you must explain yourself a little. After 9 pages of baliwack I can't tell if you are disagreeing with the OP or LatinGuyNY or someone in between.
Rick
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i think it is more prevalent in the DR than the US...being a person of color (not latin) i see it upfront and personal every time i visit the DR...with certain individuals (some on this forum), i see the KKK all over again...so i really wonder when they see me in the DR, what do they really see, a tourist or someone of color ?
Most people are too concerned with their own problems and obligations that they have little to no time or interest in focusing on you while walking any street in the DR or elsewhere.
In fact, most people may not even notice you since you will simply be one more anonymous person passing by. In the DR a buenos dias or hola maybe as much attention as you will get, which is better than the complete ignorance experienced in many places in the US. At best, in the DR a complete stranger may spring into a conversation with you, but it's all superficial conversation. In any case, at least such person recognize your existence but may simply be looking for way to distract him/herself from his/her problems for a little while by talking about things with someone.
Of course, it become obvious when its time to meet people. Some individuals will avoid you, others will give you a chance. That is typical and normal anywhere. The rest depends on how you act, where you are from, what social status you form a part of, your education level, the way you dress, the way you carry yourself, etc.
There is plenty of room to move, as long as you are not trying to get accepted into the very tight and closed old money upper class social circle of Santiago for example. In that particular circle, if you are not born or marry into it, then you will never be accepted. Very rarely are outsiders accepted.
Dominicans in general don't trust outsiders (the further up the social latter the more distrustful they are), for this reason Dominicans depend heavily on their extended family members for anything they need or want. Whether its finding a job, friendship, business partnerships, etc. On the rare occasion when outsiders are accepted into the social clan, such outsider is only accepted after they have cultivated a sense of trust and friendship which will lead to business relations, contracts, etc. Dominicans don't just meet for business, they first meet to know you and if they like what they see, then after some trust and friendship has developed will they do business with you. In general that is how much of Dominican society works not just in business, but in everything.
This is completely different from the US where people are not completely distrustful of outsiders and this can be seen in the prevailance of social lives revolving around social clubs and institutions more so than what is the case in the DR where life revolves more around the extended family.
Having said all of this, people have too much things on their minds to worry about some anonymous person passing by on some street or drinking in some bar or doing anything that will have little to no impact on their own personal worries and obligations.
Chances are that you will be more concerned of what others are thinking of you than they are actually thinking of you.
You can overcome whatever disadvantages being of such and such race may bring by simply proving to them that you are worthy of their attention and friendship. If you fail to prove to them that, then they will reject you very quickly regardless if you are white, mulatto, black, whatever.
Just my opinion.
-NALs
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You raised some good points Nals,
An upper-class Dominican will feel you out and then if everything is Kosher, they'll invite you in to their social and economic circle. If you ever noticed when being introduced, the question of "what do you do for a living allways come up in the conversation" Other than Dress, Speech, and Mannerisms, where you work will answer their question of your status and class.
An upper-class Dominican will feel you out and then if everything is Kosher, they'll invite you in to their social and economic circle. If you ever noticed when being introduced, the question of "what do you do for a living allways come up in the conversation" Other than Dress, Speech, and Mannerisms, where you work will answer their question of your status and class.
What do you see?
Like Nal said the way you dress, speak, walk and carry yourself tell a lot about you to a Dominican. Now, if you wear baggy jeans, with a gold clock as a medal of your gold dog size chain with poor grooming and lousy attitude you will get a lot of looks and will not be welcomed. This is the way it is. First impression is what counts. You won't believe how far you go buy wearing the right attires, cologned and the right attitude in the DR.
And when the older are meeting the younger they always ask who your parents are.
A Canadian Viewpoint
I was reading through some of the really interesting posts about classism in the US and the DR and didn't see anything about Canada. I come from the very multicultural city, Toronto, so I am quite surprised to see some of the posts by people from different areas of the US and in the DR. In Canada, I find that classist ideas about people are well hidden where they do exist. As well, in the sense of asking one's surname when dating is really odd to me, I mean, if you are of so-called higher class in Toronto, last names don't neccessarily mean anything, what would really matter is that the person is either in school, has gone to school, or has a decent job that can support themselves is good enough. If anything, I think that between classism, by far, sadly the colour of someone's skin is more important than class. As I always feel like or see, the darker you are, the worse the situation is for you. Being of low class AND dark is just two strikes against you instead of one. I guess that as a black female in Canada, I have been lucky that I have not encountered anything serious that has dealt with the kind of deep seated racism that exists everywhere.
Of course, I would never want anyone to even attempt to do such a thing even if was possible, but just saying what I think. I just think that people all over the world, not just the DR need to acknowledge and try to understand WHY classism exists and where our racist notions come from and rationalize why all those things make a difference and who benefits from those differences being accentuated.
I was reading through some of the really interesting posts about classism in the US and the DR and didn't see anything about Canada. I come from the very multicultural city, Toronto, so I am quite surprised to see some of the posts by people from different areas of the US and in the DR. In Canada, I find that classist ideas about people are well hidden where they do exist. As well, in the sense of asking one's surname when dating is really odd to me, I mean, if you are of so-called higher class in Toronto, last names don't neccessarily mean anything, what would really matter is that the person is either in school, has gone to school, or has a decent job that can support themselves is good enough. If anything, I think that between classism, by far, sadly the colour of someone's skin is more important than class. As I always feel like or see, the darker you are, the worse the situation is for you. Being of low class AND dark is just two strikes against you instead of one. I guess that as a black female in Canada, I have been lucky that I have not encountered anything serious that has dealt with the kind of deep seated racism that exists everywhere.
Of course, I would never want anyone to even attempt to do such a thing even if was possible, but just saying what I think. I just think that people all over the world, not just the DR need to acknowledge and try to understand WHY classism exists and where our racist notions come from and rationalize why all those things make a difference and who benefits from those differences being accentuated.
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The reason you didn't see anything about Canada is because the OP was comparing between the US and the DR.
If it isn't DR related it has no business here and if it is race related it doesn't have any business here either.
Rick
If it isn't DR related it has no business here and if it is race related it doesn't have any business here either.
Rick
what i meant was when i go into an ex-pat place for example, i notice they all stare until i say "hello"..now i'm ok, i'm american or some just don't wait on me at all because they think i'm dominican. for example, i love german food (yes !!) everytime i go into a certain place in sosua they just look at me like i'm from outer space. so i guess i see even ex-pats showing some classist attitudes sometimes.
it's not a big deal to me. but i thought i'd clarify my last thread...
it's not a big deal to me. but i thought i'd clarify my last thread...
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Hmm, interesting observation.
I wonder if some of the expats have a superiority complex when it comes to what they perceive to be a Dominican?
I say perceive because Dominicans as a people are varied, however I wonder if they "don't wait" because they think you are a Dominican (perhaps a Chopo) and thus, they won't give you the time they would otherwise give you if they knew you are a foreigner like them.
Perhaps there is a classist tendency here, but I am wondering if their is as well a superiority complex where some expats may feel superior to Dominicans in general and thus act in the same manner.
If, however, they simply react in such manner to darker Dominicans, then its obvious there is a racist tendency although it could also be a classist tendency since most dark Dominicans are of the lower classes. However, if they react in the same manner to all Dominicans, regardless of skin color or class, then I guess its a superiority issue some expatriates may be having towards Dominicans.
Just wondering.
-NALs
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yes it is very interesting. but i notice the superiority complex soon shuts down when they see i'm american. don't they notice that "land of the free, home of the brave" strut i got ? LOL
seriously though, with about 9 trips to the DR under my belt i am beginning to see some ugly things i never saw before and that's disappointing. so i just "avoid" the classist establishments.
pm me if you want to know those establishments in sosua.
seriously though, with about 9 trips to the DR under my belt i am beginning to see some ugly things i never saw before and that's disappointing. so i just "avoid" the classist establishments.
pm me if you want to know those establishments in sosua.
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Thannnkkks for the tactful way that you dealt with that:ermm: And the professionalism too. I'll make sure that when other people are writing about "those people" or talking about Haitians not to comment. Thanks
I'm confused now
I know we are not supposed to talk about race on the site, but I was just wondering whether that only pertains to certain people or certain views or what??? Just a valid question stemming from reading some of the posts throughout this thread. I just notice only comments to some people and not others. Just trying to understand the politics on this message board between moderators and users.
I know we are not supposed to talk about race on the site, but I was just wondering whether that only pertains to certain people or certain views or what??? Just a valid question stemming from reading some of the posts throughout this thread. I just notice only comments to some people and not others. Just trying to understand the politics on this message board between moderators and users.
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