It seems permanent to me

[NanSanPedro]

So I'm doing a Fluencia quiz and they ask me to translate "The flowers in the garden are dead." I write " Las flores en el jardin son muertas." They say it should be estan and not son, because "It looks like you mixed up son, a form of the verb ser, with están, a form of the verb estar. Remember, ser is generally used for longterm traits (job, height, etc.) while estar is used for temporary states (weather, emotions, etc.)."

To me, dead is fairly permanent. What am I missing. And yes, I do think this is kinda funny.

 

[El Rey de Mangu]

So I'm doing a Fluencia quiz and they ask me to translate "The flowers in the garden are dead." I write " Las flores en el jardin son muertas." They say it should be estan and not son, because "It looks like you mixed up son, a form of the verb ser, with están, a form of the verb estar. Remember, ser is generally used for longterm traits (job, height, etc.) while estar is used for temporary states (weather, emotions, etc.)."

To me, dead is fairly permanent. What am I missing. And yes, I do think this is kinda funny.

"Son muertos" would refer to a group of living things that are now dead or more so as a figure of speech. Crudely speaking "those cadavers" or "those deads". Could mean a live person not functioning etc.

El es un vivo muerto, not el esta un vivo muerto.

The state of being dead is está muerta

 

[NanSanPedro]

"Son muertos" would refer to a group of living things that are now dead or more so as a figure of speech. Crudely speaking "those cadavers" or "those deads". Could mean a live person not functioning etc.

El es un vivo muerto, not el esta un vivo muerto.

The state of being dead is está muerta

Thanks!

 

[Africaida]

Nice explanation.

Ser vs Estar has to be one of the hardest concept in Spanish. After of course, el SUBJUNTIVO

 

[El Rey de Mangu]

Thanks!

I didn't explain it as clear as I could have. But that's the way I understand and use it. I'm just an out of work IT guy.

 

[Marianopolita]

So I'm doing a Fluencia quiz and they ask me to translate "The flowers in the garden are dead." I write " Las flores en el jardin son muertas." They say it should be estan and not son, because "It looks like you mixed up son, a form of the verb ser, with están, a form of the verb estar. Remember, ser is generally used for longterm traits (job, height, etc.) while estar is used for temporary states (weather, emotions, etc.)."

To me, dead is fairly permanent. What am I missing. And yes, I do think this is kinda funny.

Estar is used to express a physical condition or state. Therefore death falls under this category in Spanish. The permanent tip or logic does not apply in this case.


Physical state and condition

Ej. Cómo está.....you may answer está xxx ...mal, bien, enfermo etc.

Ej. Está muerto or vivo....expresses the physical state or condition of the person.


-MP.

 

[Marianopolita]

Nice explanation.

Ser vs Estar has to be one of the hardest concept in Spanish. After of course, el SUBJUNTIVO

Yes, I agree. There are a few difficult grammar concepts in Spanish but they can be overcome by studying (good resources), practice, listening to Spanish speakers and reading.

Examples:

Ser /Estar
Por / Para
El subjuntivo
Haber- as a verb of existence. Many people don’t understand that concept.
Saber/ Conocer- some people don’t know how to differentiate usage

These are just a few.


How was the subjunctive brought to your attention? Espero que me digas.


-MP.

 

[drstock]

I find that the temporary/permanent thing for estar/ser is a pretty good guide, but you have to remember the exceptions.

 

[william webster]

Try mastering past pluperfect passive in English

 

[Marianopolita]

Try mastering past pluperfect passive in English

What tense is that?

There is the past perfect or it is also called the pluperfect tense and there is the present perfect tense.

Can you give an example of a verb conjugated in the tense you mentioned?

 

[Africaida]

Yes, I agree. There are a few difficult grammar concepts in Spanish but they can be overcome by studying (good resources), practice, listening to Spanish speakers and reading.

Examples:

Ser /Estar
Por / Para
El subjuntivo
Haber- as a verb of existence. Many people don’t understand that concept.
Saber/ Conocer- some people don’t know how to differentiate usage

These are just a few.


How was the subjunctive brought to your attention? Espero que me digas.


-MP.

Subjunctive is used so much more than in French, to be honest, it still doesn't come naturally. For example, to express something in the future (i.e. "Cuando llegue" ).It is one of these things that I should periodically review if not I forget some of it and people don't really correct me because they understand what I mean.

"If" clauses are also something that always give me pauses cause the tenses are so different than either French and English.

It can get frustrating to feel like you are not saying the right tense as you speak, when if I was to read the sentence, I wouldn't dwell on it.

The joy of learning a language

 

[El Rey de Mangu]

What tense is that?

There is the past perfect or it is also called the pluperfect tense and there is the present perfect tense.

Can you give an example of a verb conjugated in the tense you mentioned?

It was the rum talking.

 

[Marianopolita]

Subjunctive is used so much more than in French, to be honest, it still doesn't come naturally. For example, to express something in the future (i.e. "Cuando llegue" ).It is one of these things that I should periodically review if not I forget some of it and people don't really correct me because they understand what I mean.

"If" clauses are also something that always give me pauses cause the tenses are so different than either French and English.

It can get frustrating to feel like you are not saying the right tense as you speak, when if I was to read the sentence, I wouldn't dwell on it.

The joy of learning a language

Everything you said is true about the subjunctive in Spanish. I think the fact you are aware of it and can talk about these grammatical points is a plus sign. A lot people give up. I have had students and clients tell me they want to learn Spanish but not the subjunctive. That is impossible if they want to be fluent and grammatically correct.

When referring to the future (and sometimes it is subtle) with cuando the subjunctive is required. For ex, I will tell you when you come back home. Te diré cuando regreses a casa. It can’t be regresas in that sentence. With the If clauses you have to learn the sequence of tenses. Practice and then it will feel instinctive.

One recommendation is if you read in Spanish every time you see the subjunctive highlight the sentence and ask yourself why it was used. If you don’t know why put it in the forum here and you will get help.

I agree with you. Out of all the Latin based languages the subjunctive has the strongest presence in Spanish still today.

 

[Africaida]

Everything you said is true about the subjunctive in Spanish. I think the fact you are aware of it and can talk about these grammatical points is a plus sign. A lot people give up. I have had students and clients tell me they want to learn Spanish but not the subjunctive. That is impossible if they want to be fluent and be grammatically correct.

When referring to the future (and sometimes it is subtle) with cuando the subjunctive is required. For ex, I will tell you when you come back home. Te diré cuando regreses a casa. It can’t be regresas in that sentence. With the If clauses you have to learn the sequence of tenses. Practice and then it will feel instinctive.

One recommendation is if you read in Spanish every time you see the subjunctive highlight the sentence and ask yourself why it was used. If you don’t know why put it in the forum here and you will get help.

I agree with you. Out of all the Latin based languages the subjunctive has the strongest presence in Spanish still today.

I even bought a book "Practice makes perfect" just about it to later realize that I understand the explanation better in French (they make better sense to me, although explanation in English tend to be better broken down).

Te diré cuando regreses a casa is the perfect example. Instinctively, one would use the future or even present tense (as in French). I say it without a thought because it is so frequent (llámame, cuando llegues), but it still feels unnatural.

Reading is key.

 

[william webster]

Past pluperfect passive is a tense we made up in school

Lots of people fell for it..... you're not the first to question it !!

hahaha

I haven't used it for years.... our old trick
Fun to dust of the relics

Nope = not the rum.... until after dinner

 

[william webster]

and the alliteration is critical to the popularity.....

Oh no!... another 'P'

 

[Marianopolita]

Your grammar book is your best friend or it should be. I know so many people who say they learned Spanish on the street or just with friends or casually which is possible and kudos to them but I listen to them speak and 99% of the time no subjunctive usage or very little. It’s random. Why? because they did not study the language via grammar. This is true for all languages. If a person is going to study a language with the intention to speak even at the most basic level the first step is grammar based. One needs to know the structure of the language.

If clauses, the usage of cuando, idiomatic phrases and many other nuances in Spanish require the subjunctive. For ex, I would have come if I had known= Si hubiera sabido habría venido. Another example, para que always requires the subjunctive para que sepas, para hagas, para que vengas etc. As well, the subjunctive is used for some of the command forms. Now that is different compared to other Latin languages.

Practice makes perfect series is very helpful and you can check your answers and translations.

 

[NanSanPedro]

Both of you are scaring the shit out of me regarding the subjunctive. 😰 I looked at my Fluencia schedule and saw that Level 7 (I'm on 6 now) is the subjunctive and Level 8 is the present subjunctive. I didn't even know there was a present subjunctive!!

 

[flyinroom]

Your grammar book is your best friend or it should be. I know so many people who say they learned Spanish on the street or just with friends or casually which is possible and kudos to them but I listen to them speak and 99% of the time no subjunctive usage or very little. It’s random. Why? because they did not study the language via grammar. This is true for all languages. If a person is going to study a language with the intention to speak even at the most basic level the first step is grammar based. One needs to know the structure of the language.

And I would be one of those people.
I did it with French and I did it with Spanish.
The present and the passé composé all the way, every day.
But...I also bought the books and read and tried so hard.
Every time I use the subjunctive (correctly) in French or in Spanish, I still get a little thrill that runs up my leg.
It makes me proud.
Now...
If I could just get straight on the por and the para.
Life would be a dream.

 

[Marianopolita]

Both of you are scaring the shit out of me regarding the subjunctive. 😰 I looked at my Fluencia schedule and saw that Level 7 (I'm on 6 now) is the subjunctive and Level 8 is the present subjunctive. I didn't even know there was a present subjunctive!!

You have nothing to fear. Take it in stride. You will find it interesting and realize that the subjunctive is almost obsolete in English. Many use it unknowingly and also it depends on your foundation in English from day one and basic grammar in school.