- Thread starter Lucas61
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Learning Haitian Creole: Some Proverbs
Meaning of Proverbs and Meaning of GWOZOZO
My friend you have a lot to learn about Lucas61. Unfortunately, you think that everything I say is 100% incorrect and everything you say is 100% correct, so with that assumption of absolutism, you keep getting in trouble. Although you have much knowledge, which I respect, I am beginning to question whether you really are the GWOZOZO that your moniker proclaims. And I wonder how many readers here know what it means, and in caps yet? They will certainly be surprised and unsurprised when they find out.
When you give the example of the verbs DWE and OBLIJE, you completely miss my point. These are simple words. My point was that your claim that the proverb indicates ?must? is false because there is no such verb as ?dwe? or ?oblije.? Further, there is no indication in the proverb indicating an ?advice to go with the flow.?
That is your conclusion. The proverb is neutral on any kind of coercion or insistence. It's simple a matter of fact statement that one will choose spontaneously, by one's own volition, to follow the group rather than to be a minority of one.
And you say that I make the same mistake over and over trying to understand a language and its meaning from reading a book. Oh, are you trashing book learning now? Books written for and by Haitians? Obviously, books provide one critical aspect, reading and writing. But I've been to Haiti 30+ times in order that I may LISTEN and SPEAK. This is the way languages are learned all over the world.
Do you have a better way?
And I need to ?fully speak the language to get the nuances and meanings?? So I have to go from zero to ?fully speaking the language? before I can understand any nuance, any meaning? After hundreds of hours of work and study and hundreds of hours in Haiti I am completely ignorant and understand nothing until, one day, I am like you and know everything?
Of course there's a sense in which one must live the culture to get the nuances and meanings, as you say, but as far as these proverbs are concerned that is B.S. Most of these proverbs are universal in meaning and GWOZOZO does not have a special channel through which he can be privy to those meanings. Those meanings are available to all discerning humans, including GWOZOZO but not excluding everyone else with particular reference to
Lucas61.
My friend you have a lot to learn about Lucas61. Unfortunately, you think that everything I say is 100% incorrect and everything you say is 100% correct, so with that assumption of absolutism, you keep getting in trouble. Although you have much knowledge, which I respect, I am beginning to question whether you really are the GWOZOZO that your moniker proclaims. And I wonder how many readers here know what it means, and in caps yet? They will certainly be surprised and unsurprised when they find out.
When you give the example of the verbs DWE and OBLIJE, you completely miss my point. These are simple words. My point was that your claim that the proverb indicates ?must? is false because there is no such verb as ?dwe? or ?oblije.? Further, there is no indication in the proverb indicating an ?advice to go with the flow.?
That is your conclusion. The proverb is neutral on any kind of coercion or insistence. It's simple a matter of fact statement that one will choose spontaneously, by one's own volition, to follow the group rather than to be a minority of one.
And you say that I make the same mistake over and over trying to understand a language and its meaning from reading a book. Oh, are you trashing book learning now? Books written for and by Haitians? Obviously, books provide one critical aspect, reading and writing. But I've been to Haiti 30+ times in order that I may LISTEN and SPEAK. This is the way languages are learned all over the world.
Do you have a better way?
And I need to ?fully speak the language to get the nuances and meanings?? So I have to go from zero to ?fully speaking the language? before I can understand any nuance, any meaning? After hundreds of hours of work and study and hundreds of hours in Haiti I am completely ignorant and understand nothing until, one day, I am like you and know everything?
Of course there's a sense in which one must live the culture to get the nuances and meanings, as you say, but as far as these proverbs are concerned that is B.S. Most of these proverbs are universal in meaning and GWOZOZO does not have a special channel through which he can be privy to those meanings. Those meanings are available to all discerning humans, including GWOZOZO but not excluding everyone else with particular reference to
Lucas61.
Lucas61,
Stop making a fool of yourself.
You are a foreigner just learning Haitian Kreyol from books and from some visits on your way to the motherland africa.
Yet, you think you can argue the meaning of Haitian proverbs with a Haitian born, raised by several generations of native Haitians, fully immersed in Haitian culture, native Haitian kreyol speaker.
Are you delusional????
And NO, you will never be like me and know everything about my native language and culture.
You are in the learning stage, so it is best to listen, take notes and ask questions.
Now that you feel cornered, you are going after my moniker....lol
Your inability to listen is why you are hearing ZENG Goud.
Poze ti-pap, poze.
As a famous Haitian saying goes, "Twou bouda'w won, ou vle pete kare".
Stop making a fool of yourself.
You are a foreigner just learning Haitian Kreyol from books and from some visits on your way to the motherland africa.
Yet, you think you can argue the meaning of Haitian proverbs with a Haitian born, raised by several generations of native Haitians, fully immersed in Haitian culture, native Haitian kreyol speaker.
Are you delusional????
And NO, you will never be like me and know everything about my native language and culture.
You are in the learning stage, so it is best to listen, take notes and ask questions.
Now that you feel cornered, you are going after my moniker....lol
Your inability to listen is why you are hearing ZENG Goud.
Poze ti-pap, poze.
As a famous Haitian saying goes, "Twou bouda'w won, ou vle pete kare".
Lucas, you got it right about GWOZOZO. He doesn't suffer from low self esteem. Nor would I imagine him to be a naval gazer. I looked up that name a long time ago. I looked up gorgon too, because they were words I didn't understand.
So gwo is great, big, or something like that. zo is bone. So close to hueso no? So, big bone bone? So what.
i know bubkis about Haitian Creole, but his translations were more lyrical. Oops, should have said interpretations.
Now my next post is to ask him a a question. Don't go thinkin I'm ingratiating. I've been treated to his hard edge before, and as usual, he was right.
So gwo is great, big, or something like that. zo is bone. So close to hueso no? So, big bone bone? So what.
i know bubkis about Haitian Creole, but his translations were more lyrical. Oops, should have said interpretations.
Now my next post is to ask him a a question. Don't go thinkin I'm ingratiating. I've been treated to his hard edge before, and as usual, he was right.
gWOZOZO, is this your translation from creole into English? Or was it in the published book?
the French guy had a letter written by a Haitian woman. So the French guy spoke French and the Haitian woman spoke kreyol. Did the French guy pick up creole, or did he stick to standard French when living there, except for new vocabulary of African food stuffs, instruments, etc. surely those would had been conceptualized in Kreyol.
So the frenchies started colonizing before it was established as their side by that Treaty of Ryswick in 1697. The French started moving in around 1600, for simple numbers. But I don't know how quickly they settled and developed the fully functioning sugar plantation. It wasn't until 1640 that France had some formal recognition to her side of the island. So,,forty years from the beginning of the contact with French and Africans to begin rudimentary conversation regarding labor. Then, just forty years later this young woman is writing beautifully rendered prose in a clear distinct language? If I am understanding it right, that is a remarkable achievement.
That letter is beyond poignant. A fully functioning intellectual mind and a sophisticated understanding of emotion and relationships. With a sense of self agency to form her own destiny. Amazing woman.
Do you know more about her. You described her as a young female Negro. Does that imply something about her civil status, free, enslaved, somewhere in between?
Also, one more question, given that you are writing in English would it not be appropriate to use the female term Negress instead of qualifying her as a female Negro? Do you consider the term Negress offensive? Or is it like how in Hollywood now the ladies say female actor, but line up to get the best actress award.
Last thing, is it better to write kreyol in English or do you prefer Haitian Creole for the Anglos, and Creole hatien for the frenchies. Is it cultural appropriation to spell it kreyol if I know only bubkis?
And if you do choose to,reply, please make sure to tell me how I am completely wrong and only a fool could waste his time asking such lame questions. Please., I don't want to feel left out.
Oops, got,my math wrong. I see now it was about 40 years of French presence until,they got some kind of recognition to be there and run plantations. 1697 when they gained full control (1700). Still only 80 years later this woman's letter was formed. I still think it is a remarkable achievement.
When I listened to kreyol I often here the Mwa, mwo, gwo sounds. People kind of purse their lips forward and they speak. And it sounds like it is in a rhythm. You know how Nigerians kind of speak English in a natural iambic pantameter. Something like that.
And remember my keyword for all my brilliant insight into Haitian language is...bubkis. Cuz that's what I know, bubkis.
See how this NY gentile has Yiddish in his bones.
When I listened to kreyol I often here the Mwa, mwo, gwo sounds. People kind of purse their lips forward and they speak. And it sounds like it is in a rhythm. You know how Nigerians kind of speak English in a natural iambic pantameter. Something like that.
And remember my keyword for all my brilliant insight into Haitian language is...bubkis. Cuz that's what I know, bubkis.
See how this NY gentile has Yiddish in his bones.
The True Meaning of And Is It Deserved?
GWOZOZO means BIG PENIS "Zo" by itself means bone, as you say. Sure, I respect is knowledge, but not his arrogance, This makes him a "tizozo" to my way of thinking. BTW, he's frequently right but often wrong.
GWOZOZO means BIG PENIS "Zo" by itself means bone, as you say. Sure, I respect is knowledge, but not his arrogance, This makes him a "tizozo" to my way of thinking. BTW, he's frequently right but often wrong.
Fair questions monfongoloco,
No that is not my translation, it came with the copy of the letter. I should have parenthesized.
I don't find the term negresse offensive. It is used all the time in Haitian Kreyol "negess"
I also love the term negro and love to see people's reactions in the states when I use it.....lol..lol.
As for writing Haitian Kreyol, early writers used mostly the french spelling.
A purely phonetic system has now been established and accepted as the standard.
So now Moin is now Mwen, C has been eliminated and replaced with K...and so on.
lol..lol..lol...hahaha.
You'll be alright Lucas61
BTW: where you able to translate "Twou bouda'w won, ou vle pete kare". ??????
Hein, don't pay too much attention to the years.
This is just a letter that was mentioned by the swiss traveler. I am sure it was not the first one written.
The latest trend in Haitian French
"In Haiti, the French spoken in Paris is very influential; so much so, that there is a growing number of Haitians who'd rather speak it as precisely as possible by listening to "Radio France Internationale" and the style spoken. Although quite distinct from the streets of Paris, the results are quite similar to the media of Paris and published books.[1]
In the educated groups, French is spoken more closely to the Parisian accent. It is within this group that a major portion of enrollment is provided for the private schools and universities. Even in this group however, a native accent of the language usually occurs in everyone's speech"
"In Haiti, the French spoken in Paris is very influential; so much so, that there is a growing number of Haitians who'd rather speak it as precisely as possible by listening to "Radio France Internationale" and the style spoken. Although quite distinct from the streets of Paris, the results are quite similar to the media of Paris and published books.[1]
In the educated groups, French is spoken more closely to the Parisian accent. It is within this group that a major portion of enrollment is provided for the private schools and universities. Even in this group however, a native accent of the language usually occurs in everyone's speech"
The timeline is something like this:
1629: Establishment of French and English privateers at Tortuga, fleeing from the Spanish fleet of don Fadrique de Toledo (the son of the notorious Duke of Alba), sent to crush their bases at St. Kitts.
1661: Creation of the first settlements on the Dominguan mainland by Bertrand D'Ogeron, who also managed to put the nascent colony under the French banner. Before that it was a constant jockeying of power between English, French Huguenots and French Catholics as to whom would get to dominate the colony. The Catholic folks won in the end.
The colony at the beginning consisted of a set of outposts whose inhabitants divided themselves in three classes: a. Filibusters/freebooters, whose main mode of living consisted in robbing and plundering nearby Spanish settlements and ships. The colony's value to them was a place to hide, spend the money stolen, and as a source of wood for making ships.
b. Buccaneers, whose main mode of living consisted in hunting the wild cattle that the Spaniards couldn't relocate when they ordered the destruction of the western towns (Yaguana, Guanahibes, Bayaha, Quoritori) to prevent the colonists from trading with their enemies. See the "Devastaciones de Osorio (1605)" for more details about this tragic episode in Dominican historiography.
c. Habitants, whose main mode of living was cultivating small plots of tobacco, using European indentured servants in the Virginian model. This used to be the main staple of exportation that the colony had before the sugar plantation and full blown African slavery. Of course, there were a few blacks here and there, and even a revolt from them before the plantation phase (see Padrejon's rebellion in Port-de-Paix).
1685: Establishment of the Code Noir by Louis XIV, following the directives left by Jean Baptiste Colbert before the latter's death, which was to guide the government of the French plantation colonies (at the time, Martinique, Guadeloupe, St. Kitts and St. Lucia, all of them mature plantation colonies at the time). The first sugar plantation/mill in Saint-Domingue dates from this year.
1691-1697: Dominguan phase of the War of the Grand Alliance (King William's war for you, USAmerican folks). A combined Spanish-English invasion force lay waste to the colony. Governor Tarin de Cussy would be among the casualties of the war, and Jean Baptiste-Du Casse, one of the leaders of the Compagnie de Senegal, which had the monopoly of the slave trade at the time, would take control as the colony's governor, leading the colony to change its economic outlook from the small tobacco plantation (with European indentures as the main labor force) to the sugar plantation with African slaves as their workforce, following the model set by nearby Jamaica, Barbados and the French experience in the older Martinican and Guadeloupean colonies.
That's it in a nutshell.
Famous Haitian Saying and GWOZOZO Bites the Dust.
Poze pap vye, poze:
Your ass hole is round, you want to fart square! In Twou bouda'w won, where is the "se"? Zero copula again! LOL! tizozo bites the dust! LOL!
Poze pap vye, poze:
Your ass hole is round, you want to fart square! In Twou bouda'w won, where is the "se"? Zero copula again! LOL! tizozo bites the dust! LOL!
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lol..lol..lol...lol
SE is not needed in "twou bouda'w won"??????
"twou bouda'w won" = your ahole is round
"twou bouda'w SE won" by itself makes no sense in haitian Kreyol. A round what would have to follow.
In which case it would be "twou bouda'w SE OU/YOU twou won" = your ahole is a round hole
Get it????
You don't speak the language, you don't know how to write the language, you don't know how to properly translate and yet you want to argue.
You are an amateur using word for word translation which is not the way to translate.
That's why the saying fits you perfectly.
"twou bouda'w won, ou vle pete kare" meaning: you are out of your league / you don't have the capacity / not ready for prime time / your aiming too high / you are way over your head / you are being pretentious /
I would love to see this debate about the Kreyol language continue ... but in Kreyol! So far, in round 1, I have seen a native English speaker go up against a native Kreyol speaker ... arguing about Kreyol while using English. Wonder what would happen if things were changed just a bit.
I am not sure that the mods would allow it though, since this is an "English only" forum. But it sure would be fascinating to see the outcome. (Of course, we would need "another" native Kreyol speaker to act as referee, and to report back to us with the English translations ... and that would not be me.) But it would be interesting ....
I am not sure that the mods would allow it though, since this is an "English only" forum. But it sure would be fascinating to see the outcome. (Of course, we would need "another" native Kreyol speaker to act as referee, and to report back to us with the English translations ... and that would not be me.) But it would be interesting ....
I would love to see this debate about the Kreyol language continue ... but in Kreyol! So far, in round 1, I have seen a native English speaker go up against a native Kreyol speaker ... arguing about Kreyol while using English. Wonder what would happen if things were changed just a bit.
I am not sure that the mods would allow it though, since this is an "English only" forum. But it sure would be fascinating to see the outcome. (Of course, we would need "another" native Kreyol speaker to act as referee, and to report back to us with the English translations ... and that would not be me.) But it would be interesting ....
Actually there is no debate going on.
You have one clueless/delusional foreigner lacking basic common sense who thinks he knows a language and a culture by reading a book and a few visits.
And you have a native trying to help the foreigner with his learning.
And DR1 would not be an appropriate stage for a real debate on Haitian Kreyol, as the audience is not well versed on the subject.
"Twou bouda'w won, ou vle pete kare"
G?nial ! Je vais la ressortir ! G?n?ralement je peux lire et comprendre le Cr?ole Haitien, mais j'ai du mal ? l'?crire.
Nou pa gen pwoblem pou tend?, ?a facil, mon cher
(eskiz? otograf mwen, paske ortgraf Haitien dificil enpil pou mwenmem)
G?nial ! Je vais la ressortir ! G?n?ralement je peux lire et comprendre le Cr?ole Haitien, mais j'ai du mal ? l'?crire.
Nou pa gen pwoblem pou tend?, ?a facil, mon cher
(eskiz? otograf mwen, paske ortgraf Haitien dificil enpil pou mwenmem)
"Twou bouda'w won, ou vle pete kare"
G?nial ! Je vais la ressortir ! G?n?ralement je peux lire et comprendre le Cr?ole Haitien, mais j'ai du mal ? l'?crire.
Nou pa gen pwoblem pou tend?, ?a facil, mon cher
(eskiz? otograf mwen, paske ortgraf Haitien dificil enpil pou mwenmem)
You are doing great Squat. Most "schooled" Haitians also don't know how to write it properly.
That is changing with the new generation due to the introduction of the language in the schools.
"Haitian Creole has a phonemic orthography with highly regular spelling, except for proper nouns and foreign words. According to the official standardized orthography, Haitian Creole is composed of the following 32 sounds : a, an, b, ch, d, e, ?, en, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, ng, o, ?, on, ou, oun, p, r, s, t, ui, v, w, y, z. Of note is the absence of letters c, q, u and x. Letter k is to be used for the sounds of letters c and q. Letter u is always associated with another letter (ou, oun, ui), while letter i (and its sound) is used to replace the single letter u in French words. As for letter x, its sound is produced by using the combination of letters k and s, k and z, or g and z."
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Thanks for that explanation GWOZOZO. Interesting.
For a language learner a strict translation can be helpful as it can reveal nuance. A native speaker's interpretation is of great value. He is translating. You are interpreting, with an apparent superior knowledge of kreyol grammar. One of the reasons I like dr1 is chatting with people who know things I don't.
But, frealz dealz, dude, why do you harsh out?
For a language learner a strict translation can be helpful as it can reveal nuance. A native speaker's interpretation is of great value. He is translating. You are interpreting, with an apparent superior knowledge of kreyol grammar. One of the reasons I like dr1 is chatting with people who know things I don't.
But, frealz dealz, dude, why do you harsh out?