Middle Class in DR

[RacerX]

Thanks God for posters like Pichardo. There are a lot of positive things about DR but most wouldn't know it from all the negative nancies who post here.

Yea, you are right. And most of us wouldnt cut off our balls and wear white Nike tennis shoes eating applesauce laced with cyanide waiting for a spaceship to take us to Magic Mountain.

Everything with a grain of salt is what I say. Some of us may be Negative Nancys but Positive Pablo is the guy 1st in line to get a lobotomy.

 

[the gorgon]

Chip states

I can appreciate Dominicans love of their country and all the good there is but it's not necessary to fib by stating that almost half the people here are at the "middle class" level. I'd say 20-30% at best. And I'm including more people in the middle class than Pichardo would too.

it is one thing for guys to think that tourists come to the DR because it has the best music in the caribbean, and the best food, and the best women. those are all subjective assessments, which cannot be proven to an absolute certainty. some guys will beg to differ, others will agree. however, there is absolutely no semblance of truth to the belief, or assertion, that 44% of Dominicans are middle class people. the mathematics defies that contention. the recent stats show 42% to live below the poverty line. so, add that to 44%, and tell me what percentage lives AT THE POVERTY LINE, JUST ABOVE THE POVERTY LINE, MIDWAY BETWEEN THE POVERTY LINE AND MIDDLE CLASS, AND JUST BELOW MIDDLE CLASS.

i agree with Chip, whole heartedly. arithmetic is not subjective.

 

[Criss Colon]

There Is An "Olde Saying" In The Acedemic Community,.......

"If You Can't Wow Them With Wisdom,Baffle Them With "BULL$HIT"!!!!

Now I know what motivates "Don" Pichardo!!!

So MANY "Pretty Pictures",so little information!

So much "Sizzle",so little "steak"!

Let those of us who survive the day-to-day reality of living in the DR,continue to post what it's really like here,and not promote any "AGENDA"!!!

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

 

[the gorgon]

criss, you forgot

so many hats, so few cattle. or, the Dominican one

mucha espuma, poco chocolate

 

[Chip]

I thinks it's fairly evident and even has been alluded to that at least one contributor has a monetary incentive to post what they do.

 

[NotLurking]

the recent stats show 42% to live below the poverty line.

Do you think your stats might be just a bit outdated? What do you mean by recent? Can you provide a link to the source of the stat, "42% to live below the poverty line"? The only source to the, "42% to live below the poverty line", that I know of is the report by Oxfam* that uses data from ONAPLAN (2003)** or 8 year old stats. Eight year old stats are not recent by any means.

*Source: Crece campa?a de Oxfam por la reducci?n del hambre - ElNacional.com.do

1.2. Pobreza y desigualdad social
La pobreza, es uno de los problemas m?s acentuados en la sociedad dominicana actual. De
acuerdo con ONAPLAN (2003) existen en el pa?s 3.607.330 personas pobres, lo que equivale a un
42,2% de la poblaci?n y 637.271 personas en pobreza extrema, es decir, un 7,5% de la poblaci?n
est? en pobreza extrema o indigencia. Sobresale el mayor porcentaje pobreza rural frente a los
niveles urbanos, pues el 55,6% est? en pobreza y el 13,7% en pobreza extrema.

**Source: http://www.rlc.fao.org/iniciativa/pdf/infdom.pdf

NotLurking

 

[Chirimoya]

Also when looking at these stats, you need to note how they define "poverty line" and "extreme poverty". This one here is based on 2008 data - International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

 

[the gorgon]

NotlLurking disagrees

Do you think your stats might be just a bit outdated? What do you mean by recent? Can you provide a link to the source of the stat, "42% to live below the poverty line"? The only source to the, "42% to live below the poverty line", that I know of is the report by Oxfam* that uses data from ONAPLAN (2003)** or 8 year old stats. Eight year old stats are not recent by any means.

you are correct that stats which are 7 years old, since they were also deemed accurate in 2004, cannot be considered recent. however, for them to be proven unworthy of use, i need some economist or statistician to show me where there has been a paradigm shift in income distribution that will render them useless. also, when numbers such as these change, they do so very incrementally. they are not going to go from 42% to 10% in 10 years. i will hazard a guess that even if the number is not exactly 42% currently, it is not very far off. even then, using 30%, the arithmetic will still not be workable, if we use the notion that 100% means everything.

 

[NotLurking]

you are correct that stats which are 7 years old, since they were also deemed accurate in 2004, cannot be considered recent. however, for them to be proven unworthy of use, i need some economist or statistician to show me where there has been a paradigm shift in income distribution that will render them useless.

Here is a graph from the 2010 report just published July 2011* from the, 'Ministerio de Economia, Planificacion y Desarrollo' (the old ONAPLAN).

using 30%, the arithmetic will still not be workable, if we use the notion that 100% means everything.

I'll argue that if 33% of the population is poor according to statistics then 67% is not poor by the same standards and at least 44% could conceivably be middle class.

*Source: http://www.stp.gov.do/eWeb\Archivos\Libros\Composicion_Economica_Dominicana.pdf

NotLurking

 

[Taino808]

Exactly!!! As for some here who have stated that my post was inaccurate, it wasn't. At 40 to 1 10,000 pesos is 250 dollars per month. I never stated the peso is currently at 40 to 1. Attacking that part of my post was the weakest I've seen ever. The fact that the peso is currently at 37.95 or 38.10 is totally immaterial. The fact is that since the peso's inception, it has devalued to the point that it will very soon reach 40 to 1 or does Taino believe it won't?

Secondly, the ridiculously and pathetically miniscule difference between 38 (present) and 40 (future) is so absurd to be totally insignificant. To take Taino's rate at 37.95 means that 10,000 pesos = 263.50 dollars. 263 and 250 is really no difference at all. Or are some like the referenced poster trying to mean that 263 is the demarcation point of middle class or some other laughable point of change???

At least, some here like Gorgon understand the meaning of the post. I used 40 to 1 as a future point and also as a very simple point from which to understand how utterly useless 10,000 pesos per month is as a wage from which over 60% of Dominicans must draw from to live a miserable life.

Lastly, the stats state that 60% earn less than that meaning that 10,000 is the top end of low earnings. Many earn 200, 150 and 100 dollars a month. By no means is the DR a country where the majority earn wages allowing a human to live any much more than a rat's existence and if these facts present me as a sellout then so be it. I care not what the facts color someone else's perception of myself.

O&C the only things ridiculous are the numbers you present as facts to us all, one more thing, don?t take my comment to heart; see it as just one negative comment among many more to come, much like the many you?ve written about the DR.

TRUE FACT is, I really don?t blame you for what you?ve written in the past, I know for a FACT, that you say what you?ve said because you?ve been brainwashed by the many shiny little trinkets that corporate America shines in your face on a daily bases.

You have convinced yourself into believing that because the DR is a developing country no one could ever obtain material things/trinkets like in the States, but what you don?t know and the real FACTs are that just like in the states, here in DR there are many Dominicans living quite well and making just as much cash as any corporate suite in America today.

Case in point me, many years ago (13) I realized that there is a niche for anyone smart, resilient, ambitious and persistent enough make a living here. After many trial and failures I now earn well over the $100,000 US dollars a year, just from rentals alone her in little old Santiago. BUT hold on there?s a plus, if you add the income I make from my construction business; lets you and I agree on that I do quite well here.

But FACT is that so could you, if instead of sitting in front of your computer wasting time bashing the DR, and rather than talking about ?the end of the world scenario?s? and start to put more emphasis on finding out why others have done so well here, while also forgetting about trying to make a living off of the land/farming i.e. your family in Constanzaon, I bet you and your family would do quite well for yourselves as well.

I?m sure you know the DR isn?t some backwards communist country, where everything is stacked against you in ways to keep you from ever getting ahead, sure there are LOT?S of red tape placed in front of us sometimes, but I myself choose to see red tape as miner hurdles on the way to the top (financial freedom) and so should you.

True FACT is O&C you for reasons unbeknownst to me RESENT the DR, maybe it has something to do with the FACT that others have gotten ahead while you haven?t found the one very important niche I mentioned above. Or could it be that you much like many of the expat community in the DR truly believe that we Dominicans have this ?entitlement? attitude about life (as mentioned in many other posts) , sure I won?t argue with you that maybe there is a few Dominicans out there that much like you, have been brainwashed into thinking that it?s someone else?s problem to help them get ahead in life. But FACT is that many expats also have the same ?entitlement? bug in them as well.

Sorry for veering off the economic subject O&C, it?s a Saturday and like every Saturday, it?s a slow day. Back to economic FACTS, I have workers on my payroll that make well over your imaginary $250 dollars a month. FACT is, apart from the 45 employees I currently employ at my construction business, I also have two superintendents making well over $1,000 dollars a month just for upkeep and maintenance of two office buildings. I know its hard for you to believe that there are people in the DR that pay well, I for one am one of them. Believe it or not, I?m one that strongly believes that loyalty should be rewarded with financial security.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could hear your argument from a mile away thinking ?that?s just a few guys making that kind of money?. Yes but just think for a minute, every building to the right and to the left of my office buildings also have a superintendent earning just as much as my employees. These true FACTS in my mind, make me believe that your numbers exclaiming that the average person in DR makes just $250 dollars a month or less, to say the least, is something that?s far from the truth.

I could see you sitting in front of your computer, compiling your drafts and number chart to make your argument. But before you do, keep one FACT in mind, the numbers and pie charts you have complied over the years to make your case, are nothing more than government numbers. Also keep one more FACT in mind, no one in the DR tells the government how much they truly earn, I for one certainly doesn?t, you could bet your bottom dollar that I?m not the only one doing this.

These are TRUE FACTS, not the numbers you and your cronies make up on a daily bases.

Taino

 

[cibaoo]

I love how people have a total distrust of Government but use the government's statistics to try to prove ridiculous points as to how much one person makes. Its so repulsive.

If you really want to see how Dominicans live (atleast in Santiago) all you have to do is take a field trip and see for yourself. Anything East of Sadhala and North of 27 De Febrero. Everything between Rafael Vidal and Sadhala. The areas around PUCUMM. I have a family friend who built a house in Quintas De Pontezuela. Its starting to make Cerros De Gurabo look Middle Class.

The only data I take from the Government is Population and GDP. Even the GDP I look at it carefully because all Governments are incompetent and only to be trusted in certain situations if at all.

It is my personal belief that Democratic Societies break down as follows more or less:

6% Are Millionaires

5% Are Lazy Parasites who will NEVER work no matter what (ie: Remesas Receivers)

5% Can't Do anything For Themselves/Handicapped/Disabled/Retarded

44% Working Class

40% Middle Class

The top 1% of the population earn around 20% of the country's wealth. So if you take the Governments population figure of 9,378,818 that means we have 93,788 Dominicans bringing in around 18 Billion. ($191,922)

44% Of the Working = 4,126,679

40% Middle Class = 3,751,527
10% Lazy/Destitutes = 937,881

There are more than enough millionaires in the country to fill up all of Moca. If we deduct the 18 Billion from the 93 Billion GDP we are left with 75 Billion.


5% By The Destitute/Lazy = 3.75 Billion/937,881 = $3998
75% By The Middle Class = 56 Billion/3,751,527 = $14,927
20% By The Working Class = 15 Billion/4,126,679 = $3634

Now keep in mind that the Lazy's get around 3 Billion in remesas plus additional remesas in the form of cash when their family visits every year. You also have maybe another 10-20 Billion underground economy which would be Whores, Drugs and Bootlegging of clothing, Music and Videos.

Another aspect that adds to the Middle Class is the fact that unlike in America, when we go to college we generally don't move out and the girls don't leave until they are married and neither do the boys. So essentially you have an average family of 4 brining in 50K+ in your average household in Santiago/Capital. Add this to the fact that a substantial amount of Dominicans OWN their own homes free and clear, all of the income generated is essentially all for luxuries and the expensive gas bill.

Most Middle Class Americans could never understand this fact because even though they claim to "Own" a home, the mortgage, tax bill, ridiculous home heating costs and Car Lease cost prove that they really don't "OWN" anything. Obama or whoever is elected does.

Of course some will pull out all sorts of charts and even possibly link to that Liberal Hack Job New York Times for "proof" of this and "proof" of that, but many Dominicans know many Dominicans who live fantastic, stress free lives in free and clear homes where the only real bills are the electric and cellphone and utilities which rarely amount to anything more than $300 per month.

 

[SKing]

When the hell did $1000 per month become middle class????

SHALENA

 

[the gorgon]

NotLurking states

I'll argue that if 33% of the population is poor according to statistics then 67% is not poor by the same standards and at least 44% could conceivably be middle class.

i will reluctantly try to respond to this assertion. there was a study that showed that in 2003, 42% of Dominicans were living below the poverty line. you questioned the AGE of the data, as if there is a correlation between when the data was gathered, and its applicability in today?s analysis. in the absence of a watershed moment, the data will not change by any significant amount. let us take an example- let us say that in 1900, 1000 people died from a certain bacterial infection. in 1920, a cure was found, and widely applied. we would expect that in 1930, the figures from 1900 would not be useful, because of a seminal moment in history. this is not the case here. nothing has changed over the last 8 years which will render the 2003 figures worthless. if you know of some dynamics which point to an DOWNWARD revision of the numbers, please share it with us. and, as i said before, if you seriously believe that close to one half of all Dominicans live a middle class existence, then stop by me for your title to the Brooklyn Bridge.

 

[bob saunders]

When the hell did $1000 per month become middle class????

SHALENA

Like ciaboo above says, when you own your house and car a $1000 is really more. Imagine paying no rent or mortgage and no car loan, then in a county like the DR 40,000 Pesos goes a long way, then imagine there are two or more wage earners in the home. This was how it was with the family we visited in Costa Rico- grown children living at home. Man I never so much womens clothing, shoes, and purses in my life.

 

[ExtremeR]

$1,000.00 a month could be middle class in small towns specially if you already have your house and car paid for. In Santo Domingo or Santiago? No Way!!!

 

[Chip]

US1000 is certainly a middle class income in Santiago, get a grip dudes.

 

[Chip]

There are few on this forum that love this country as much as I do or defend it but to state that 40% of the DR is "middle class" is to ignore the facts, even including that to mean RD38k a month. Furthermore, repeating it over and over will not make it true either. Yes, there are many wealthy people and middle class in the DR but they are the minority. They are generally professionals that have done well or that have their own businesses. If there is any doubt just look at any wage statistics not published by the comesolos and his band of bandidos payasos. Furthermore, there is no disgrace in being labeled lower class on the economic scale. For goodness sakes Jesus was a poor carpenter by all accounts.

 

[bob saunders]

There are few on this forum that love this country as much as I do or defend it but to state that 40% of the DR is "middle class" is to ignore the facts, even including that to mean RD38k a month. Furthermore, repeating it over and over will not make it true either. Yes, there are many wealthy people and middle class in the DR but they are the minority. They are generally professionals that have done well or that have their own businesses. If there is any doubt just look at any wage statistics not published by the comesolos and his band of bandidos payasos. Furthermore, there is no disgrace in being labeled lower class on the economic scale. For goodness sakes Jesus was a poor carpenter by all accounts.

Sounding more and more like a grass-eater( Cometodos) every day Chip. I don't believe the current government has ever states that 40% of the DR is middle class. Jesus was a rabbi.

 

[PICHARDO]

I placed a challenge here on posting all the residential, villas, etc... Barrios, barriadas, huts, etc... Just in the city of Santiago alone!

The let's break down the myths of what is what and how much you need to live where, by each site...

I know the answer already because it's OUR biz to begin with in the DR!

But! Let's allow the "others' more acceptable DR1s to do it to be fair and not be labeled as come solo!

The gauntlet has been thrown!

How hard can it be? With the city of Santiago being so tiny!

If you need help with the limits of the city let me know, I'll give you a map!

 

[PICHARDO]

For those that don't know it:

The CITY of Santiago is exactly 75 km2 (29 sq mi) in area!
The MUNICIPALITY is exactly 524.03 km2, which is what you call the suburbs around the city (separate residential communities within commuting distance of a city). For those from the USA and mainly the NY area: This is like talking about New York City and mentioning Yonkers next to it! But still called NY state! The State here is the PROVINCE of Santiago with a total area of 2,836.51 km? (1,095 sq mi).



What we CALL the City of Santiago is contained in the 75 km2 (29 sq mi) area!

Need more data?

Who wants to start listing the sites by name of all the residential areas of the city?