My first Debate

[mountainfrog]

Values, huh?

1. Where do all these people in the barrios come from?
30 years is enough for Dominicans to produce two generations. Haitians need not help there.
2. Dominicans holding Western values?
The list is short. Christian ethics are reduced to hypocrisy,
morals rank behind money. The latter is the only real
Western "Value" that counts here. Pure US-influence in
my opinion.
3. If this country had fewer corrupt officials, there would be
fewer Haitians holding Dominican cedulas or entering the
country with a money-pass.
M?frog

 

[Pib]

"Where did all these people come from in such short time?"

It's called population growth (courtesy of the Vatican).

Music maestro...

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed
In the neighborhood...

There's a Monty Python quote for every ocassion.

Let's just not blame the Haitians for the population growth in the D.R. Unless you've been living in Little Haiti, next to Mercado Modelo I don't know what that is all about.

How do we blame the garbage around here on them (althought to be fair my neighborhood is fairly clean). There ain't no Haitians where I live, except for the odd millionaire and the construction workers that come here to build residential towers. Who are all these Haitians living in Ciudad Colonial?

Actually I am pretty sick of some people's innability to frigging accept that we Dominicans are not perfect (some of us are, but that's another matter :classic: ) and that the only difference between an individual Dominican and an individual Haitian is just the nacionality and perhaps the language.

 

[Narcosis]

No need to beat a dead horse.

I thought my last post made my point clear. But again people go back to splitting hairs, and basically turning the subject around.

Pib: I hope it makes you feel better to make it seem I am some sort of Right-wing skin-head out to prove that Dominicans are perfect? Read my last post.

M-frog: Money seems to be the overwhelming value world-wide not just here unless you want to debate about that as well?

Chirimoya: Please give us a solution. If there is one. In the mean time should I enroll my kids for French lessons?

 

[mountainfrog]

Dear Narcosis ...

here I agree fully with you: Money rules this planet.
The problem comes in where hardly no other values check the power of money. Then even a rich country is poor.
Then money buys everything: the politicians, the law-makers, the police, the judges, the murderers, the church(es) ...
You may argue, that?s the case in every country, just a matter of the amount.
True and false.
There are (still) European countries where the mere attempt to bribe a policeman will earn you two years in jail.
No, that?s not why I came here.
M?frog.

 

[Narcosis]

It's funny countries like Spain and Italy have the lowest birth-rates per capita on the planet with the rest of Europe close behind but they are still slow to accept 3-world nationals in their countries especially Africans.

Chirimoya you my have first-hand experience on that.

On the other hand truckloads of Haitians cross the frontier daily and we are bigots for complaining about it??

Or maybe the explanation is in PIB's views since we are essentialy the same as Haitians it is ok, but of course it is not ok that they go to Miami, Gibralter or Spain..

 

[Chirimoya]

Hey Narcosis, I am in no way singling out the DR! I am as quick to challenge prejudice towards - and unfair treatment of - immigrants in Europe as I am here. You are correct in saying that I have first hand experience of that, coming from the part of Europe closest to the African continent (just 7kms between Tarifa and Tangier). Spain gets the local equivalent of 'yolas' and countless corpses of Moroccans and other African would-be immigrants washed up on the beach.

But you are distorting my point. I agree that the DR is right to be worried about the effect of a large, uncontrolled migration from Haiti, just as any country, rich or poor, should be, about Haitians or any group of immigrants. I said so at the foot of my last post. My issue with you in this debate is about your insinuation that Haitians are innately inferior, and that much of what is wrong with the DR is due to their presence here. Statements such as 'Haitians are dirty' only serve to bring down the debate to playground level.

I would advise you to enrol your kids for French lessons, and that you should too. It usually makes sense for people to learn the language of the nearest neighbouring country. In the UK, children are taught French. Israeli kids learn Arabic but not vice-versa, unfortunately. However, you will find that French in Haiti only goes so far. Urban, educated people speak French (and Kreyol, Spanish and English), but the vast majority, the poor, speak just Kreyol.

What would (some) Dominicans do if they didn't have Haiti?

Chiri

 

[Talldrink]

Just wanted to point out that in my original debate - oops, venting - post I did not imply or THINK that Haitian population is liable for the DRs problem. I dont believe any one NATION in particular is responsible for the DR's many problems. If the government cared enough, there would be solutions or at least talks of it.

Happy Tom?

 

[Talldrink]

But you are distorting my point. I agree that the DR is right to be worried about the effect of a large, uncontrolled migration from Haiti, just as any country, rich or poor, should be, about Haitians or any group of immigrants. I said so at the foot of my last post. My issue with you in this debate is about your insinuation that Haitians are innately inferior, and that much of what is wrong with the DR is due to their presence here. Statements such as 'Haitians are dirty' only serve to bring down the debate to playground level.

Chri, it is safe to say that others have brought some of these debates to the 'childrens' level. In fact, the reason why I copied and pasted the original post was just that, to show how ignorant the other posters have been. Instead of putting out valid points, they wanted to imply how much better the Haitians are over the Dominicans. It seemed that there is a little Hate-e Debate team that only feels better by bashing the DR.

 

[XanaduRanch]

I'm Tellin' Dad! You used the 'R' word!!

I dont believe any one race in particular is responsible for the DR's many problems.

What race would theat be? The Martians, the Lunarians, or the Little Greys? Or ... maybe ... the humans? :: sigh ::



As to Halitosis's comments. There was so much BS there I got brain lock reading it and tried desperately not to respond. Of course any country has the right to admit or not admit anyone.

Frist, it's silly to compare Italy accepting Haitian's presence with the DR accepting Haitian's presence. In the same way it would be ludicrous to hear the DR whining about an influx of boat people from Vietnam. We don't share a border! Just in case you missed that little factoid. The U.S. has the same problem with Mexican immigrants and alternately ignores it and sicourages it. Vut that's their decision.

Second, as to being bigoted, well I suppose hypocritcal would be more correct. The DR has the power to allow or disallow immigrants. To argue against problems caused by illegal immigration is one thing. To define a whole class of people by nationality as dirty and the cause of the DR's problems is bigoted. But more hypocritcal because rather than fixing the dead spot in Dominican's brains that causes the problems you use another nation'speople as a scapegoat, while hoping others will blindly follow the false righteous indignation you inflame with this baiting.

That's just silly. But it's sad. Haitians in the DR aren't causing the Dominican's who are here to behave badly. Period.

Tom aka XR Your kid may be an honor student but you're still an idiot!

 

[wda1]

What an American says about DR

My heart ached as I read the threads about the cleanliness and quality of the Dominican people. I have NEVER been in the DR, but my 20 year old son has been serving a Church mission there for the past year. It is the first time he has ever been out of the U.S. He has lived all over the Eastern part of the country. Every day of his life he spends knocking on DR doors and then talking, eating, playing with the Dominican people that open their homes to him. For one year, I have been so thankful to the Dominican people because every week he writes of the love and hospitality shown to him by the DR people. He has never had a Dominican be rude or cruel to him. He has said the homes are modest and clean and full of love! He lives very modestly too. Right now he is in one of the poorest areas of Santo Domingo and he loves it!Yes, it is a 3rd world country. Many people live in poverty and barely have enough to eat, but my son said he is always welcomed into their home and whatever the family has is shared with joy and selflessness. Even if they don't want to hear his Gospel message there is always smiling, laughter and friendship. At Christmas time we sent him gifts, including food, clothing and toys. He had a blast giving them to the DR people that he has grown to love so very much and he said the love he received in return made it the best Christmas ever. My respect will always be given to the people of the Dominican Republic. They have treated my white, American son with the love and kindness necessary for the world to continue in peace. America has plenty of garbage and unclean homes and prostitution too! Anyone can find what they look for. As for my son, he loves the people as if they were his family and I am grateful! He often writes that he doesn't want to return home. The DR must be a wonderful place with wonderful people!!

 

[Pib]

Pib: I hope it makes you feel better to make it seem I am some sort of Right-wing skin-head out to prove that Dominicans are perfect? Read my last post

Alright then...

Haitians are dramatically different from any other western society. Basically they still hold African values that conflict with the overwhelming different western values Dominican hold.

The same thing could be said about us. You see, as my husband tried to explain to his mother why a Danish newspaper called the D.R. "a jungle of lazy people" one has to keep in mind that these "Western values" are not quite sacred here, if by "Western" you mean "corruption free", "enviromentally conscious", "respectful of human rights", "respectful of the law" and so on and so forth. The fact that our neighbor to the west is in worse shape does not make us a beacon of Western civilization, you know? "Mal de muchos consuelo de tontos" as the saying goes.

If you look at the out-skirts of Santo Domingo and see pictures of these same barios just 25 to 30 years ago (much after Trujillo by the way) you will see a major difference. Most of these barios did not even exist. Where did all these people come from in such short time?

Just pay attention and you will hear the stories of people been jailed for littering in the Trujillo era... not that there's anything wrong with that, but it doesn't seem the case nowadays.

If we keep overloading the system with more and more un-educated dirty people how in God's name will we become a clean society?

It doesn't make it better, or worse in this case. Dominicans litter (warning: gross generalization for the purpose of making a point). Haitians do not live in every neighborhood and every town in the DR. They tend to concentrate in certain areas, the vast majority of garbage in the streets and contamination is the handywork of Dominicans.

To our credit you are the first one I hear trying to blame Haitians for this.




I do believe that humans are basically the same. As a society Haiti is a total failure, but that does not make every Haitian a worse or inferior human being. After all, sitting idle while your country goes down to the gutters and your basic rights are been trampled on is something we Dominicans are guilty of too. Mea culpa.

 

[Narcosis]

X-Ranch again you come back with a personal attact.

Only shows your self-rightous need to say something. If you even had a clue you would understand what I was talking about when I made a reference to Italy. never a word about Haiti there.

Again it is the 10'th time I say this. I never mentioned any reference to "race" or superiority of one country over another, or have I said our problems are a direct result of Haitians. I said it only tends to increase our own problems, adding to our already dirty, un-educated population.

I am the first to agree with P.R's right to return all Dominican boat people as it is the same as Haitians coming here. Dominicans in PR cost tax payers over there, just as Haitians are an added burden to us.

As far as not seeing the Haitian influence? I suspect none of you have traveled to the south-west of the DR? We may as well hand over Pedernales to Haiti.

Some people are missing the point. Where do you think 2 million Haitians are hiding? They are in places that are not fit for decent living. (The banks of rivers, hillsides, occuping government land etc.) Some of these areas have no basic infrastructure for sanitation services, police patrol and a litany of other things.

The overstressing of the infrastucture is making it close to impossible to make general progress here, as these people are not denied basic human needs such as hospital care and education (unlike many weathy nations).

This just adds more stress to an already corrupt and weak social system.

No one has pointed the finger at Haiti as the soul source of our problems.

But we need to acknowledge this problem needs to be addressed soon.

 

[Chirimoya]

Pib, your post expressed what I wanted to say better than I ever could.

After all, sitting idle while your country goes down to the gutters and your basic rights are been trampled on is something we Dominicans are guilty of too. Mea culpa.

The only thing is, the Haitians to their credit are not exactly sitting idle at the moment! Perhaps it is the fact that they have less to lose.

Narcosis, now I see you've moderated your stance: what do you suggest?You asked me for a solution which I do not have, apart from supporting any attempts to restore stability and democracy to Haiti which would result in a reduction in migration. If you accept the border is porous, guarded as it is by a corruptible army, what do we do?

Chiri

 

[Narcosis]

Chirimoya.. Haiti does not have less to lose..they have nothing to lose.

This current revolt in Haiti is just another revolution in the historical cycle of events in Haiti. Nothing new just more of the same.

And about not doing anything about changing whats wrong here?

I try to avoid politics since it is prohibitted on this forum, but I feel the PRD party has made it part of their agenda to exploit the fact that we have a porous frontier with Haiti to add more militants to their party. That is the subject of a whole new thread.

As a result of our current democratic status all we can do is wait for May 16'th to make the most important change of all.

That is one of the many differences in Haiti and DR. We have the worst possible goverment now, but we can only do what the rules of democracy allow us to do to change, if we were to deviate from this position, we too would start to fall under the "failed nation" status.

 

[Chirimoya]

Politics is allowed on this forum, as long as the subject is DR related.

Granted, the system here is not in the same shambles as Haiti's, but when democracy means choosing the least corrupt, there is something rotten in the state of D...

What does the PLD plan to do about the situation, I wonder. Will border guards become less corrupt overnight? I wait with bated breath.

- If this is better off in a new thread, please let me know. We seem to have all lost track of the OP, anyway. What was it again?

Chiri

 

[XanaduRanch]

The Narcosis 'I Am Not A Bigot' Hit Parade!

There's not much else left to say regarding the original intent of the thread. My aplogies, TallDrink.

It's apparent, as usual, that some Dominicans just can't ever get around to twisting that finger they're waggling around in the air at themselves (collectively) for the problems they're so loudly whining about. It's always someone else's fault. Well, it's not. It's the Dominican's country, and it's the Dominican's responsibility to fix things. And that mainly involves educating their own population not worrying about others.

To wit. I used the term "bigoted" in replying to one of these posts. Thinking I may have been a bit harsh I re-read them all. Here's a few selections from Narcosis' posts. I stand by my earlier statement.

I never mentioned ... superiority of one country over another, or have I said our problems are a direct result of Haitians.

Really?

• Much of the current status of Anarchy in this country is the result of countless years of invasions from our African brothers to the West.
• They have infiltrated into this country imposing their savage ways
• Tell me which country in the world has a similiar situation and has not engaged in all-out ethnic war?
• Many of our problems stem from this all-out invasion.
• If it looks like a bananna, it smells like a bananna and it tastes like one it probably is no matter what they say.
• the simple fact that when millions of un-educated, dirt-poor people descend upon a society ...
• Haitians are dramatically different from any other western society. Basically they still hold African values that conflict with the overwhelming different western values Dominican hold.
• This is a people that will not submit to western values.
• Law and justice for them is with a machete.
• we keep overloading the system with more and more un-educated dirty people
• most of these Haitians must work to survive, un-able to educate themselves much less their off-spring.
• It only increases all of our own problems. We are everyday dirtier more un-educated because of it
• it only tends to increase our own problems, adding to our already dirty, un-educated population.
• Where do you think 2 million Haitians are hiding? They are in places that are not fit for decent living. (The banks of rivers, hillsides, occuping government land etc.)

Those words, folks, are the words of a bigot.

Tom aka XR I was trying to daydream but my mind kept wandering.

P.S.
Just for fun, try substituting the word Jews for the word Haitians wherever you see it above. Remind you of anyone? Pretty chilling isn't it! Even more so that some people still think this way, and think that it's OK. And I am called a right-wing-nut? I don't think so.



Mod's Note: NO name calling, even if in jest.

 

[Narcosis]

Since you have nothing better to say

xranch. The fact you are even in this debate is not that you care about the original subject, (clearly made evident by your sarcastic first posts), but as you read my provocative statements on an issue I have a clear opinion on, you (like usual) broke in and started slinging the mud in the typical fashion a person that uses these forums to endulge in the delight of granstanding and making everyone aware of your self-rightous presence.

If this was the first thread you were to engage in this type of behaviour maybe it would be a surprise, but of course it is a common theme in your posts.

xranch since you seem to have your way with the higher-ups here, I will do myself a favor (much to your dislike), and obstain from posting any further, since it would be imposible to shut you up.

Good night.

 

[Pib]

Xr

First and ONLY warning. Pls. abstain from name-calling, even if in jest, or else I will have to smite you, lovingly, but smite you nonetheless.

 

[Talldrink]

There's not much else left to say regarding the original intent of the thread. My aplogies, TallDrink. QUOTE]

Tom and Narcosis, thanks for highjacking my thread. I hope we all learned something from your posts, that is the point nonetheless...

 

[XanaduRanch]

What Topic? My First Debate?

To keep a topic on point, TallDrink, you need to clearly state what the topic is. Your first post rambled so that it was difficult to tell what it was you wished to discuss. Even the title of the thread does not give anyone a clue. This is a debate on "My First Debate"? What is that?

When you give folks 400 acres to wander around in, they will.

I gave my opinion of what 90% of the posters in the thread devined your intent to be, which was a debate over responsibility for public littering here in the DR. Even the forum moderator, Goddess Pib, spent most of her posts on that subject. It never fails when a poor Dominican trait or habit, no matter how benign is discussed, some Dominican, usually one who doesn't live here, will jump right in and start fingerpointing and blaming everyone and anyone but themselves. No responsibilty.

The discussion was one particular poster, whose name I mysteriously had trouble typing correctly, blaming Haitians for Dominicans throwing garbage out their car windows, and Pib, Chiri, MF, and a few others pointing out how silly this was. The poster attempted to disavow his earlier posts, and I held his feet to the fire using his own quotes. He pouted and left.

Debate ended. Which never really was much of a debate since I doubt very many people feel there's a Haitian in every Dominican SUV with a machete forcing the guy with a Rolex to throw his Happy Meal tray in the road.

One more thing, however.

Those kinds of comments, things like "If it looks like a bananna, it smells like a bananna and it tastes like one it probably is no matter what they say", "countless years of invasions from our African brothers", "They have infiltrated into this country imposing their savage ways", "Tell me which country in the world has a similiar situation and has not engaged in all-out ethnic war?" are highly offensive to me and I do not apologize one bit for pointing them out. People need to stand up to that kind of bigotry and hatred whether it's face-to-face or yes even here on a silly message board. I was not kidding around when I suggested you substitute the word Jews for Haitians in all his posts. The simililarites are frigthening. Saying nothing is the same thing as saying it yourself. And I don't want to live in a world like that.

Tom aka XR My degree is in Calcium Anthropology. The study of milkmen.