My first Debate

[Talldrink]

Tom, is hard to tell people's emotions over typed words, but if Im assuming correctly - Calm down.

First off, about my last post, is not that deep, seriously. On my original post, I stated I knew it wasnt much of a debate and later stated that it was more of a vent for me - Pib didnt move it then it stayed here - it could have easlily been moved to the Open forum. I did find the original words for my vent post in the debates, so I called it 'my first debate' the person who wrote the original harsh words may have wanted to refute my words and explain why it was writen in the first place.

Im not taking this as seriously as you are. I acknowledge your good posts by saying that I hope some others learned from them as I have. And the point of posting here is to learn regardless of who posts.


I also agree with you that you should state when you dont agree with something, which brings me back to square one: the reason why I started the thread in the first place.

 

[XanaduRanch]

Tom, is hard to tell people's emotions over typed words, but if Im assuming correctly - Calm down.

LOL. Don't worry, TallDrink. I am not in the least bit upset. I am not apoplectic, my face isn't beet red, I am not convulsing. I am smiling actually.

I don't mince words, and I forecefully and clearly state my positions, that is true. I get carried away a bit sometimes, like forgetting the posters name because his words smelled so bad. Some folks like to think they are getting my goat so to speak, but it's just not true.

I just think that for those who post without thinking - just like talking and having your tongue engaged while your brain is stuck in neutral - you shouldn't be given a free pass. No, I was not referring to you!

:: wink ::

Tom aka XR Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.

 

[Quisqueya]

Always Blaming!!!

Ok M-frog. You forced me to make another un-popular statement.

I agree about the garbage and a million other negative things we have no space here to list. It seems many people think they know Dominicans just from living in Cabarete, Sosua or whatever mountain you live on.

Much to your surprise if you met other people, people that actually have education, people that know who their dad is, that have normal sized families etc, you would come to realize this generalized idea of how Dominicans are, is false. Go to the middle class areas of Santiago, La Vega or Santo Domingo and you will see a different civil attitude.

Much of the current status of Anarchy in this country is the result of countless years of invasions from our African brothers to the West. They have infiltrated into this country imposing their savage ways onto the poorer sectors of society. Many of those "Dominicans" you see in places like Sosua San Pedro, San Cristobal, Azua and every poor bario in this country are 2 or 3 generation Haitians.

Here we go again blaming Haitians for dominican problems. Most of towns you mentioned are majority dominicans with darker complexions. Its ashame how everything negative in DR you dominicans blame on haitians. Narcosis, I believe your true colors have been bought into the light. If your theory is correct in regards to 2nd 3rd generation haitians I guess Sammy Sosa, Alfonso Soriano and the other famous black dominicans are Haitians too according to your opinions. Since they are attracting positive publicity for the DR I guess you would consider them dominicans. But on the other hand if Sammy was still shining shoes in San Pedro you would consider him as a African savage haitian.


There are 2 Million plus Haitians in this country people.. Tell me which country in the world has a similiar situation and has not engaged in all-out ethnic war?

Where did you get this absurd number from? Their is about 1 million haitians residing in the DR. Why are you exagerating? How can their be an ethnic war when both( majority not all) are from the same ethnic background. Unless you guys keep believing your descendants from the Tainos...and you see what happen to them right. The spaniards wiped them out I hope you dominicans dont want the same fate.

This country hs a right to limit the entry of Haitians that are estimated now as one fourth of the population.

Just as much as Puerto Ricans have the right to turn your yola around back to DR. Dont say a word when Puerto Ricans deport all of the illegal dominicans that wash up on theire shores. Now this is a country that might have an ethnic war of all the dominican immigrants invading PR. Why don't you tell a Puerto Rican that your Taino..LOL

 

[Narcosis]

Quisqueya:

You are absolutely right about Sosa and Soriano, they also could be 2 or 3'rd generation West Indian ( Antiguan, Guadalupean etc).

Of course there are black Dominicans and maybe the majority of the population is, that has never been my point. My point is that there has been an uncontrolled influx of Haitians to the DR. Be it for whatever reason that is a fact and a problem, not only for the DR but even more for Haiti.

Until the world stops looking at Haiti as a non-problem Haiti will remain in the current state it is in now. The DR gets dragged down as well. I am not blaming our problems on Haiti.. those are your and others words, what I am focusing on is the fact that Haitian influx IS a major problem for the DR and is a root cause for many of our problems...(MANY) that is the exact term I have used from the start.

Problems like the current state of public health care. most hospitals are full of Haitian women giving birth and depleating the little if any resources available. When this is the responsibility of the Haitian goverment.

Haitians are in public schools also increasing the burden of educating our population.

Feeding the population of the island. If you go to Haiti, (I have by the way), you will notice when you walk into a supermarket most foodstuffs are from the Dominican Rep., Rice, beans, the basics, as well as imported things like Cod. This is increasing the need to generate more dollars to produce or import these products and at the same time this production is sold (under the radar) and no tax revenue is obtained from the sale.


I have seen French documentaries on the subject of Haitians in slavery in the DR. propaganda just made to deviate from the fact there is a major problem in Haiti and the French and the US have no clue what to do about it.

My first concern is that Haiti becomes a stable and democratic state that can take care of it's own population and there would be no need for Haitians to cross the frontier, the same could be said about the DR and Puerto Rico.

I agree I may have used "harse" words to describe Haitians and I was wrong for doing so as it only opened me up for becoming an easy target and people starting to deviate from the general idea and inciting hate, which is not my agenda by a long shot. mea culpa

 

[Talldrink]

Quisqueya, we have concluded in THIS THREAD that we are not blaming only the Haitians for DR's problems. So lets let that go.

Whats with the Taino reference?

 

[Talldrink]

LOL. Don't worry, TallDrink. I am not in the least bit upset. I am not apoplectic, my face isn't beet red, I am not convulsing. I am smiling actually.

Tom aka XR Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.

Tom, is so scary, some people take these messages by strangers very much to the heart. Stay cool.

 

[XanaduRanch]

I am not blaming our problems on Haiti ... what I am focusing on is the fact that Haitian influx IS a major problem for the DR and is a root cause for many of our problems.

The problem isn't with the word "many", it's with the belief that Haitians here in the DR are a "root cause" of anywhere from a few to many of the DR's problems. They aren't. There is another way to perceive this, but it's perhaps not evident coming from a left-of-center perspective as you have indicated that you do. I will illustrate.

Problems like the current state of public health care. most hospitals are full of Haitian women giving birth and depleating the little if any resources available. When this is the responsibility of the Haitian goverment. Haitians are in public schools also increasing the burden of educating our population. Feeding the population of the island.

Believe it or not, I have stated exactly the same thing in sveral previous threads here and have been misunderstood and attacked for it. But it is entirely correct that illegal immigrants put a strain on the budgets of government organizations providing subsidized services to the population. The same argument is made in the United States about mainly Mexican illegals.

Note the words. I did not say they were overall a strain on the economy. An argument can be made that the inexpensive labor, the purchase of local goods and services of the immigrants with the money earned in the local economy, etc.produced an overall net gain. But I digress. I specifically mentioned only subsidized government services. That's a very important point.

If there were no subsidized programs then no amount of Haitians entering the country could be blamed for using up government (ie; Dominicans') monies. The discussion would be over.

Why do Dominicans, Americans, or anyone else on the planet believe that they are entitled by birthright to government subsidized food, housing, education, medical, etc, in the first place? From a right of center position I would argue that the complaining here is not so much about Haitians destroying the Dominican system by using services they're not entitled to, as much as it is about people so used to feeding at the government trough and not wanting anyone else to nose in line.

That problem can be easily fixed by either a) privatizing all currently subsidized services and products (the subsidies have only led to shortages of everything from electricity, to medicine, to gasoline, to cooking gas anyway) and letting everyone pay for only the goods and services that they use from their own pockets, or b) denying entirely all services to non-residents. Problem solved.

If you go to Haiti, (I have by the way), you will notice when you walk into a supermarket most foodstuffs are from the Dominican Rep., Rice, beans, the basics, as well as imported things like Cod. This is increasing the need to generate more dollars to produce or import these products and at the same time this production is sold (under the radar) and no tax revenue is obtained from the sale.

Definitely a liberal, with no concept of how economies work. Why is that bad? Some Dominican company made the product, sold it presumably at a profit, employed Dominicans who got paid for their work, who used their pay to buy other products (presumably paying ITBIS as well). And you think that's all a waste of time simply because Old Baldy didn't have his hand in their pocket siphoning off his 50% to his bank account in Switzerland? I am not saying this to be mean, but, grow up!

I agree I may have used "harse" words to describe Haitians and I was wrong for doing so as it only opened me up for becoming an easy target and people starting to deviate from the general idea and inciting hate, which is not my agenda by a long shot. mea culpa

Apology accepted, although I have to admit I am wary of anyone who could speak that way in the first place.

Tom aka XR Middle age is when broadness of the mind and narrowness of the waist change places.

 

[Quisqueya]

Ignorance only understand ingnorance

Chri, it is safe to say that others have brought some of these debates to the 'childrens' level. In fact, the reason why I copied and pasted the original post was just that, to show how ignorant the other posters have been. Instead of putting out valid points, they wanted to imply how much better the Haitians are over the Dominicans. It seemed that there is a little Hate-e Debate team that only feels better by bashing the DR.

Talldrink,

I believe you thread started off with my comments I made about dominicans. I am not here to bash dominicans but I get upset to hear how you dominicans stereotype every haitian. In every nation there are good and bad but you guys only focus on the latter of your neighbors. I am not hear to glamourize haiti and haitians because in reality we (haitians) need to get it together. But I refuse to let a dominican criticize my brethren when you(dominicans) are number 1 on the list when it comes to stereotypes by other hispanics and middle elite class of haitians.

Do you know how many hispanics(South A. Central A.) say that dominicans can't speak spanish which is a stereotype unless we're talking about the people from the Cibao region..(just kidding) It amazes me that if anything negative is projected on the DR you guys blame haitians for it. Lets call it how it should be.

I am not here to convince majority of dominicans that they are African descendants or tell you that we should be one country... All I ask is for you to realize that dominicans can't blame everything on haitians.

BTW, it appears the only way for a dominican to feel good about themselves is to talk bad about a haitian. And lets be real TallDrink, most dominicans in the NY/NJ/CT/Mass area are living below the poverty level. Its funny that every dominican I meet tell me they are from the capitol. Sure..please by the way they speak I could tell that are pure campesinos but I don't look down on them. I judge people by their character and morals not on whether they are from elite class or the mass which is majority poor in DR.

 

[mountainfrog]

Government Services?

One should not overstress the quality and amount of the free services this government offers to its (and sometimes Haitian) citizens.
I know of cases when patients were send to buy syringes and medical thread in the pharmacy just outside the Las Terrenas hospital. The owner is a ...
But I think you guessed it anyway.
So, I think, Haitians cannot be such a great burden on something that hardly exists.
When it comes to schools: Many Dominicans do not send their children to school, it?s just not worthwhile for what they are taught there.
Let a few Haitian kids fill in the spaces, no problem.
So often, the teachers do not come to school anyway.
All in all, my view is, that Haitians here contribute just as much to this economy as they "siphon off".
At least they cannot sponge on a non-existing social welfare system (as it is done by "refugees" who flock into European countries).
M?frog

 

[Narcosis]

Xranch nice to see you now entered the debate and not the mud slinging

I agree with you that privatizing public services could weed-out the corrupt element involved but at the same time being a poor nation this is a tough move politically.

About "feeding" the Haitian population. Actually you are a bit off. Since the DR is a poor nation with limited resources many of the basic pieces needed to produce food are imported. (Tractors, Fertilizer, etc), thus the more food needed to be produced the more dollars we need. The current goverment actually subsidizes agriculture which is a huge burden to the economy. (If we imported all the rice from Tailand for example, it would reach the consumer at a cheaper price) apart from this huge fact your statement applied to the US I would agree with.

BTW- I hold a degree in business and own a business which has a presence in several Latin American countries.

 

[XanaduRanch]

Xranch nice to see you now entered the debate and not the mud slinging. About "feeding" the Haitian population. Actually you are a bit off. Since the DR is a poor nation with limited resources many of the basic pieces needed to produce food are imported. (Tractors, Fertilizer, etc), thus the more food needed to be produced the more dollars we need. The current goverment actually subsidizes agriculture which is a huge burden to the economy. (If we imported all the rice from Tailand for example, it would reach the consumer at a cheaper price) apart from this huge fact your statement applied to the US I would agree with.

Once again, the problem boils down to a subsidy. Products have to be sold for no less than the cost of production. Period. If the government intervenes it costs everyone money.If the government intervenes and then doesn't pay it's bills, it costs everyone the products and sevrices because they disappear.

"Mud slinging" FYI is not repeating your word back to you, nor is noting that your previous remarks were bigoted. That's debating. If you don't want to see them repeated, best thing to do is learn not to say them. Word to the wise. Note that when you stopped making bigoted, deragatory, and infammatory statements about Haitians (and that does classify as "mud slinging") and stated your positions in an intelligent manner that the discussion then progressed. Amazing, isn't it?

Tom aka XR If you're too open minded, your brains will fall out.

 

[Chirimoya]

Is this still runnning?

Making bigoted comments about Haitians or any other group of people will only detract from the credibility of an argument. I've said this about debates with Golo on more than one occasion. When it is clear that a poster is articulate and intelligent, it is disappointing that they have to descend to this. The same goes for personal attacks and name calling. It is perfectly possible to have a debate without them, as some of the posters in this discussion have demonstrated.

Now, what was the topic again? :devious:

Chiri

 

[Talldrink]

Talldrink,

I believe you thread started off with my comments I made about dominicans. I am not here to bash dominicans but I get upset to hear how you dominicans stereotype every haitian. In every nation there are good and bad but you guys only focus on the latter of your neighbors. I am not hear to glamourize haiti and haitians because in reality we (haitians) need to get it together. But I refuse to let a dominican criticize my brethren when you(dominicans) are number 1 on the list when it comes to stereotypes by other hispanics and middle elite class of haitians.

Do you know how many hispanics(South A. Central A.) say that dominicans can't speak spanish which is a stereotype unless we're talking about the people from the Cibao region..(just kidding) It amazes me that if anything negative is projected on the DR you guys blame haitians for it. Lets call it how it should be.

I am not here to convince majority of dominicans that they are African descendants or tell you that we should be one country... All I ask is for you to realize that dominicans can't blame everything on haitians.

BTW, it appears the only way for a dominican to feel good about themselves is to talk bad about a haitian. And lets be real TallDrink, most dominicans in the NY/NJ/CT/Mass area are living below the poverty level. Its funny that every dominican I meet tell me they are from the capitol. Sure..please by the way they speak I could tell that are pure campesinos but I don't look down on them. I judge people by their character and morals not on whether they are from elite class or the mass which is majority poor in DR.

Quisqueya, you seem to do a nice job putting down the Dominicans and bashing them everytime you want to make a point about DR, I guess it makes you feel better?

Why do you say MOST,when you can say many?

Most dominicans in the NY/NJ/CT/Mass area are living below the poverty level Are the Haitians the ones hiring us here and taking care of shyt? They are poor too! How many Haitians have a house, a car, and land waiting for them in Haiti? Most Doms that I know that you THINK are poor here, choose to have a fine home to go back to in DR. UNLIKE many others that dont have anything here or anywhere! Can you get a grip!

every dominican I meet tell me they are from the capitol And then what? Your point? how does this come into the argument? what does this have to do with anything?

I judge people by Why are you judging in the first place?

Whatever the case may be, Ignorance knowing Ignorance, I think is better said that Misery loves company, we are happy people regardless of how bad you think we are, and I think you (and some others) are jealous that we can still go down to our side of the island and still have a fine good time.

BTW - Why is your handle Quisqueya when you love to hate DR? Were you trying to honor our beautiful country or the person who named you if this is your real name?

Is there not a Haitian message board you can post your love/hate for the DR and express all your wonderful views on?

PS - where is this middle elite class of Haitians, what in the world are you talking about?

 

[Narcosis]

Thank You for your message Chirimoya

Your words are very true and I must applaud you for the way you handled the situation through your prevoius posts, it shows you have the wood of a true diplomat!

I reflected upon this and realized I was actually repeating the same words some Haitians I have met actually refer to their own people. Very strange indeed although I do admit it is wrong even coming from a Haitian. It shows how easily hate could be transmitted.

On a side note:

I travel often to Costa Rica and engage in the same debate about Costa Ricans and Nicaraguans. I find my Costa Rican friends to make similar statements I have made about Haitians and I did not sense hate from them in any way, but they still hold strong to their belief that they should not be responsible for Nicaragua and it's woes as Dominicans should not be forced to deal with Haiti's problems on our own as well.

 

[Chirimoya]

Narcosis, I can see that we understand each other.

I travel often to Costa Rica and engage in the same debate about Costa Ricans and Nicaraguans. I find my Costa Rican friends to make similar statements I have made about Haitians and I did not sense hate from them in any way, but they still hold strong to their belief that they should not be responsible for Nicaragua and it's woes as Dominicans should not be forced to deal with Haiti's problems on our own as well.

As I said, every country needs its own Haiti so that it can feel good about itself.

Chiri

 

[Quisqueya]

I've hit you where it hurts!!!

Quisqueya, you seem to do a nice job putting down the Dominicans and bashing them everytime you want to make a point about DR, I guess it makes you feel better?

Once again you are so hard headed that you can really think with a clear head. I am not bashing dominicans but just stating the facts. Don't make dominicans seem like they are living the Sueno Americano because its sure not the case. Once again, I will generalize because that's what dominicans do best. dominicans generalize when it comes to the subject of Haiti.

Why do you say MOST,when you can say many?

Most dominicans in the NY/NJ/CT/Mass area are living below the poverty level Are the Haitians the ones hiring us here and taking care of shyt? They are poor too! How many Haitians have a house, a car, and land waiting for them in Haiti? Most Doms that I know that you THINK are poor here, choose to have a fine home to go back to in DR. UNLIKE many others that dont have anything here or anywhere! Can you get a grip!

every dominican I meet tell me they are from the capitol And then what? Your point? how does this come into the argument? what does this have to do with anything?

My point, is just to make themselves feel like they are important or somebody. They have to mention that they are from the capitol as oppose of admitting they are campesinos.

I judge people by Why are you judging in the first place?

Whatever the case may be, Ignorance knowing Ignorance, I think is better said that Misery loves company, we are happy people regardless of how bad you think we are, and I think you (and some others) are jealous that we can still go down to our side of the island and still have a fine good time.

Your level of hold a debate is not showing with the above statement.


BTW - Why is your handle Quisqueya when you love to hate DR? Were you trying to honor our beautiful country or the person who named you if this is your real name?

If you read a book instead of stereotyping you would know that Quisqueya is the name of the whole island.

Is there not a Haitian message board you can post your love/hate for the DR and express all your wonderful views on?

Actually there are several Haitian boards but I prefer to come here to put you guys in check(in your places) Its funny that dominicans don't know how to react when they are challenged by an educated haitian that doesn't fit none of your stereotypes. I guess you would prefer for us to stay away from this board so you guys can carry away with your dreams about how dominicans are better than Haitians.

PS - where is this middle elite class of Haitians, what in the world are you talking about?

We are everywhere France, USA, Canada, Venezuela, Argentina. just to name a few places...

 

[Talldrink]

Wow, you have certainly put me in my place and now I?m hurt. Yes, we Dominican people need a good person like yourself to put us in our places every once in a while and 'keep us in check' I?m glad we have you around and you continually give us your precious time just for that. The Haitian boards don?t need your input on how to make things better back home, but we certainly NEED you here!

Whenever you have a chance, take a look-see and notice that I've never singled out the entire Haitian community and made it the culprit of the DR's Problems. I had a problem with your SPECIFIC way of implying certain things, thus the reason why I started this thread in the first place.

You continue to make attacks against the Dominican Republic and it is very sad. Read below and then tell me, which one of us is hard headed, Ms. Elite.

Just wanted to point out that in my original debate - oops, venting - post I did not imply or THINK that Haitian population is liable for the DRs problem. I dont believe any one NATION in particular is responsible for the DR's many problems. If the government cared enough, there would be solutions or at least talks of it.

Ya mimo.

 

[JenniferDiaz]

Reality check for the Haitians!!

Haiti is falling apart and you are here just talking.. and talking..

The more Haitians talk against DR the worse Haiti gets.
When I read all things Haitians write, I understand why Haiti is where it is.
In reality, there are many things Haitians should learn from Dominicans.

What you do think is going to happen to Haiti in, let's say, 20 years from now?
I think this is the kind questions we should be talking about.

 

[Talldrink]

BTW - I've NEVER heard anyone refer to the word Quisqueya while talking about Haiti.

 

[leo_DR]

I'm Dominican, born and raised and I too am offended by the original post, TallDrink.

I live in Boston, MA, and yes there may be many "chopos"- but there are also Dominican International students studying at the local universities, I've also met several Dominican-Americans sending their kids to get their higher education. These parents want the best for their kids, bottomline. Almost all of them are bilingual, and there are many, MANY cases of the second-generation not speaking Spanish at all- perfect English.

So I think that the person that posted those comments made a lot of generalizations that only apply to a certain percentage of Dominicans.

LEO