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NYTimes Article:"Mixed Diplomatice Signals From U.S. Helped Tilt Haiti Towards Chaos"
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How can it not?
aegap said:How does that deter from the fact it has some of the most professioal journalist of any newspaper?
What's your candidate ......
.... for newspaper of record?
xamaicano said:How can it not?
.... for newspaper of record?
Honestly, in recent years my faith in the press has diminished.
moviemouth said:.... for newspaper of record?
..caino, what I am trying to say is that despite a few bad apples, it still has some of the best newspaper journalist.
My much beloved Washington Post.
moviemouth said:.... for newspaper of record?
My much beloved Washington Post.
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Sigh.............. Haliburton .................. Cheney ............
http://www.salon.com/poltics/feature/2000/07/25/oil/
Why not make a few bucks on the backs of the Haitians? Good Ole US Democracy at work....
http://www.salon.com/poltics/feature/2000/07/25/oil/
Why not make a few bucks on the backs of the Haitians? Good Ole US Democracy at work....
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It's Not Anbout Spin
The disturbing implication of the Times piece is that the Bush administration is apparently conducting foreign policy by resort to extra-constitutional means. The clandestine ops of the CIA and similar explicit government entities are at least nominally subject by law to various forms of oversight and control from outside the Executive Branch. Who is is overseeing and controlling the likes of the IRI to make sure that their actions are legal and in the best interests of the United States? The Framers of our Constitution created a system of Checks balances because, whether "righty" or "lefty", they did not trust any single branch - and most especially the executive - to wield unchecked power. I don't either.
drbill said:OK, fine, a lefty-or righty-spin could be out there, but the message seems clear. What would you whisper in Leonel's ear, given the chance (and given that reelection is a non-starter)?
The disturbing implication of the Times piece is that the Bush administration is apparently conducting foreign policy by resort to extra-constitutional means. The clandestine ops of the CIA and similar explicit government entities are at least nominally subject by law to various forms of oversight and control from outside the Executive Branch. Who is is overseeing and controlling the likes of the IRI to make sure that their actions are legal and in the best interests of the United States? The Framers of our Constitution created a system of Checks balances because, whether "righty" or "lefty", they did not trust any single branch - and most especially the executive - to wield unchecked power. I don't either.
moviemouth said:The disturbing implication of the Times piece is that the Bush administration is apparently conducting foreign policy by resort to extra-constitutional means. ...QUOTE]
Actually that's not the message that comes across, more like the Bush administration has no control over it's own foreign policy, and that different departments and players within the U.S. government work dissonantly and at cross purposes.
Mirador said:moviemouth said:The disturbing implication of the Times piece is that the Bush administration is apparently conducting foreign policy by resort to extra-constitutional means. ...QUOTE]
Actually that's not the message that comes across, more like the Bush administration has no control over it's own foreign policy, and that different departments and players within the U.S. government work dissonantly and at cross purposes.
I disagree, but your take is disturbing enough for me. However, what do you think of the article's main thesis: That the mixed signals from the U.S. contributed to the demise of the Aristide gov't. which lead to even greater instability in Haiti than under the admittedly flawed Aristide regime in terms of potential impact on the DR.?
drbill said:OK, fine, a lefty-or righty-spin could be out there, but the message seems clear. What would you whisper in Leonel's ear, given the chance (and given that reelection is a non-starter)?
The Dominican government was very suspicious of what the U.S was doing , however it complicitly went along with it so as to not compromise its own foreign policy objectives. I believe is did the right thing.
-- pss,pss....Leonel, it was dirty, but it had to be done.
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aegap said:The Dominican government was very suspicious of what the U.S was doing , but it didn't do anything so as to not compromise its own foreign policy goals. I believe is was the right thing.
The DR does not have an independent foreign policy, much less goals, from those of the U.S. However, as a consequence, the DR will eventually have to shoulder the entire dead aids patient which is Haiti, which means that Haiti has ceased to exists as a viable nation.
Better to shoulder the entire dead aids patient of Haiti then those of your own people, if you catch my drift.
The DR does have certain autonomous foreirgn policy objectives: maintaining a good standing with America, as well as bringing as much American foreign direct investment as possible into the eastern two third of the island, just to give you two examples.
It was dirty; you and I both concur there.
The DR does have certain autonomous foreirgn policy objectives: maintaining a good standing with America, as well as bringing as much American foreign direct investment as possible into the eastern two third of the island, just to give you two examples.
It was dirty; you and I both concur there.
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so the truth is out and what is going to change..nada What did we learn from this..Hmmm A so called democratic promoter toppled a democratic government and their rebuttal...Oops, it should have been dealt with differently..
And the DR government are co-conspirators in this plot but don't realize they will billed heavily turning a blind eye..Now we know for a fact haiti is in total chaos due to foreign country's interest everyone is leaving the country...Now poor haitians will fill yolas to south florida but will be intercepted by US coast guards and will all head to the DR..real smart DR government..real smart...
And the DR government are co-conspirators in this plot but don't realize they will billed heavily turning a blind eye..Now we know for a fact haiti is in total chaos due to foreign country's interest everyone is leaving the country...Now poor haitians will fill yolas to south florida but will be intercepted by US coast guards and will all head to the DR..real smart DR government..real smart...
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aegap said:Yes, the Dominican government couldn't do anything even if it wanted to.... Haitians were the ones responsible for selling their country.
The OP posted this article in another board, it's even more critical of the U.S.government/taxpayers funded NGO involved.
The information you cite is in the NY Times article I posted. I also posted the same article on another board. I did not post, nor have yet I read, the Salon article you linked to your post. I'll have a look at it.
No Problem
Just keeping the record straight, aegap. BTW That was a terrific article that confirmed much and added some new info as well. Thanks.
aegap said:I apologize moviemouth. It was someone else that linked the salon article on the other site.
Just keeping the record straight, aegap. BTW That was a terrific article that confirmed much and added some new info as well. Thanks.
Quisqueya said:so the truth is out and what is going to change..nada What did we learn from this..Hmmm A so called democratic promoter toppled a democratic government and their rebuttal...Oops, it should have been dealt with differently..
And the DR government are co-conspirators in this plot but don't realize they will billed heavily turning a blind eye..Now we know for a fact haiti is in total chaos due to foreign country's interest everyone is leaving the country...Now poor haitians will fill yolas to south florida but will be intercepted by US coast guards and will all head to the DR..real smart DR government..real smart...
Quisqueya, I love the way in which you edited your post( i should've quoted the damn thing)...where did all that "quasi-elite Haitians are to blame" rant go.
O, I see you subtituted it with the "the DR government are co-conspirators" rant.
You say "haiti is in total chaos due to foreign country's interest," I would also like to point out, like you yourself said before heavly editing your post, that many Haitians are also directly responsible for that. Did you read the part in the article where it mentions the nationality of the guy in charge of directing, within Haiti, the U.S. government/taxpayers funded NGO?
By the way it was real smart (as far as Dominican interests are concerned). Your personal emotions, which are understandable, just don't let you see that.
Rich Haitians are leaving too.
While poor hatians filled yolas heading to the DR isn't a good thing, it is certaintly better than having the full might of the U.S. government, or any of its heavly funded NGO for that matter, conspiring against you. We share a border with a country that demostrate this all to clear for us.
Let me give you an example of something similar: Most in the British government do not agree/never agreed with the Iraq War (America's War Against Terror Part Deux) but they went along with it anyhow, and still maintain troops in Iraq.
My comments may sound coldhearted to you. I wish I could be more idealist, however, please understand that in the end, pragmaticism wins the day.
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Aegap,
That was not meant for this forum..I was actually responding to someone else pertaining our mess in our own home....But to be honest with people here the people in the haitian government should be accountable and should be imprisoned for treason..
Well, I must admit that DR government really had no choice or face the same wrath. Even the embassador of the DR in Haiti admitted he knew something was mustering to overthrow Aristide in the DR and you mean the people from up North didn't know.those was his comments.
Now the problem I have with the DR goverment is they are going to cry the international community a river when poor haitians cross the border..no need to take a yola when you are on the same land..FYI Then you'll have dominican thugs burning innocent kids and their family like what took place en "La guerra" last week which will result to more anomosity between the two nations.
Your remarks doesn't sound cold hearted at all rather someone that isn't think too clearly..if haiti suffers the DR will eventually suffer too..and don't let the haitian mass found out that dominicans had something to do with their God Aristide being toppled which will be end of the nation as we know today as the "DR".
Besides, I am not too concerned and wasn't enlightened too much of the propaganda the people from the north were spewing. The truth is this isn't the first time nor the last but some how the haitian people still adapt to the situation and deal with it..Now when Golieath(sp) gets hit with a TKO will the people on her soil well be able to cope..Hmmm!!!!! we all know the answer to that..
If you think this was a victory for the DR which will have to deal with the mayhem whether she like it or not..remember we are on the same island if one side goes down eventually the other side is bound to sink as well...
Now, the poor haitians will take refuge in the DR and phase 2 of the bigger project will take effect..wait and see
That was not meant for this forum..I was actually responding to someone else pertaining our mess in our own home....But to be honest with people here the people in the haitian government should be accountable and should be imprisoned for treason..
Well, I must admit that DR government really had no choice or face the same wrath. Even the embassador of the DR in Haiti admitted he knew something was mustering to overthrow Aristide in the DR and you mean the people from up North didn't know.those was his comments.
Now the problem I have with the DR goverment is they are going to cry the international community a river when poor haitians cross the border..no need to take a yola when you are on the same land..FYI Then you'll have dominican thugs burning innocent kids and their family like what took place en "La guerra" last week which will result to more anomosity between the two nations.
Your remarks doesn't sound cold hearted at all rather someone that isn't think too clearly..if haiti suffers the DR will eventually suffer too..and don't let the haitian mass found out that dominicans had something to do with their God Aristide being toppled which will be end of the nation as we know today as the "DR".
Besides, I am not too concerned and wasn't enlightened too much of the propaganda the people from the north were spewing. The truth is this isn't the first time nor the last but some how the haitian people still adapt to the situation and deal with it..Now when Golieath(sp) gets hit with a TKO will the people on her soil well be able to cope..Hmmm!!!!! we all know the answer to that..
If you think this was a victory for the DR which will have to deal with the mayhem whether she like it or not..remember we are on the same island if one side goes down eventually the other side is bound to sink as well...
Now, the poor haitians will take refuge in the DR and phase 2 of the bigger project will take effect..wait and see
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