One Island, One Country.

[Naked_Snake]

What is wrong with that? Are they not Ethiopian by ascendancy? Would you have preferred Congolese? Ghanese? Beninese? Mozambiquean? Kenyan?

Wasn't Dessalines the one to say that haitians would only be known by the denomyn of blacks (noirs), sons of Africa above all else? I'm only giving you facts, mr. Lu.


Snake

 

[Mr. Lu]

.............

I'll ask you one simple question:

Which of the two states over the island depends more from international aid to function? In other words, in good spanish "?Quien vive mas del dao?" (Who lives more by the handouts)? That should tell you something, if any.

Its all the same bub. Its even worse in the case of the DR, why? Because when you ask for handouts having enough resources to survive then asking for help is not being victim, it's corruption, greed, no shame etc. etc. etc. etc. There has always been a quote to describe the DR: "No somos pobre. Aqui hay dinero, solo es mal administrado..."

LAMBONES....


I grew up with the concept of pulling yourself up by your own boot straps. My mom did, so did my dad. I am doing the same. No one has ever given me anything, so I have no pity for anyone wakes up with one palm down and one palm up.






Mr. Lu

 

[Naked_Snake]

Its all the same bub. Its even worse in the case of the DR, why? Because when you ask for handouts having enough resources to survive then asking for help is not being victim, it's corruption, greed, no shame etc. etc. etc. etc. There has always been a quote to describe the DR: "No somos pobre. Aqui hay dinero, solo es mal administrado..."

LAMBONES....


I grew up with the concept of pulling yourself up by your own boot straps. My mom did, so did my dad. I am doing the same. No one has ever given me anything, so I have no pity for anyone wakes up with one palm down and one palm up.


Mr. Lu

Again,

Do we depend from international aid to function as much as the haitian state does? How much the international aid represent on the DR's GDP? If it represents less than 25%, then I don't see the reason at all for your finger pointing.


Snake

 

[bob saunders]

What is wrong with that? Are they not Ethiopian by ascendancy? Would you have preferred Congoloid? Ghanese? Beninese? Mozambiquean? Kenyan?

Actually almost any part of Africa except Ethiopia. Most Blacks came to the Caribbean from the area around Nigeria, Congo, Gabon, ...etc and on the east coast of Africa- Mozambique. I rarely agree with Mr Lu and certainly don't approach things in the same way he does, but he is correct in the sense that Dominicans( not all) are famous in not accepting responsibility for their actions. Don't get me wrong, the blame game is applicable to all countries at certain times, but Dominicans have honed it to a fine art.

Biggest handout I see is the corporate handout in the USA right now; 700 Billion to start.Perhaps the DR has learned from someone else.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Actually almost any part of Africa except Ethiopia. Most Blacks came to the Caribbean from the area around Nigeria, Congo, Gabon, ...etc and on the east coast of Africa- Mozambique.

QUOTE]

As we're talking about a piece from the XIX century, it could be that "Ethiopean" might have been the term en vogue when one wanted to lump all africans on the same sack, you know, the same way that "Chino" is used currently on Latin America to lump all asians together, but I could be mistaken, of course.

Snake

 

[leodabull]

The US did ivade us twice, the second to get rid of a great short lasted leader in Juan Bosch who did admit to liking some Marxist views, yet he paid the country?s debt in less than a year (please correct if I am wrong) and I believe Castro did ask the for the US?s assistance b4 going to the Soviets (again please correct if I am wrong) and Hait well Aristides was known to kill alot of peolpe. The US did not escort him out for his own protection, they needed him out to avoid a full fledged revolution. Juan Bosch was a people President only to be ousted by the US after the coup was set in by pro-american who called on their help to bully him out thus kiliing lots of good Domincans who saw a light in a tunnel that was turned off for a little over 30 yrs by Trujillo. After his exile he serfuaced to WIN against Balaguer, and again cheated out of putting our beautiful country in a better position for my peoples?sake. He later supported Leonel Fernandez to his first presidential victory. Juan Bosch is Leonel?s idol and followed his ideology, but it is obvious he has been placed in check by Big Brother. The country has not been the same since they took Juan Bosch out. I?m hoping things will get better for all of us Domincans and non-Dominicans. Happy New Year...........Leo

 

[Mr. Lu]

.................

Juan Bosch is Leonel?s idol and followed his ideology, but it is obvious he has been placed in check by Big Brother.

Then why is he parading around in a Balaguer/PRSC hat? People of ideals don't just change to win elections. There is no Big Brother. It's pandering. Kool-Aid please!!








Mr. Lu

 

[Texas Bill]

A very patriotic response and one I would expect from a former American military officer, but what gives or gave the USA the right to determine a sovereign countrys government. Remember the US invaded the DR twice. The first time had nothing to do with a Communist threat and it's doubtful the second did. The reasons you give above make sense but are not justified in any way.

Bob;
Since you aren't in any position to determine whether or not these actions were justified or not, I would say your statement regarding that is without credence.
The ones doing the "justifying" are/were intimately associated with the circumstances. Something we as observers aren't privy to.
The "first" DR "invasion" was/had something to do with the customs debt, or some such. I'm not all too clear on that point so won't comment. The "second" invasion was at the request of the sitting US Ambassador and ostinsibly to protect US property and lives of the US Citizens. If you have any hard evidenceto the contrary, I'd like to hear about it. And I'm not talking about "hearsay" evidence, but factual eyewitness reports by disinterested parties whose veracity can be trusted and proven. Anything else will be hogwash. Especially reports from the extreme left. Then and now are equal in the eyes of this observer.

Texas Bill

 

[bob saunders]

So if I as the US ambassador to any country, say Venezuela for example, ask the US government to invade because said foreign government is nationalizing the oil industry mainly owned by American corporations this would be justification in your eyes. In the DR in the 1960's there was less justification than this. Juan Bosch had socialist leaning but not communist, and there was very little threat to American citizens and if there was they should have left. As far as whether I'm qualified to determine whether it was justified matters not, although I'm capable to determining that. I'm sure most Dominicans don't think it was justified.

 

[Haitian101]

The "first" DR "invasion" was/had something to do with the customs debt, or some such. I'm not all too clear on that point so won't comment.

Texas Bill

Debt? Yes, USA needed money for WWI and the Americans just cleaned up the region. If they invaded DR because of a 'debt or some sort', what were they doing in Haiti and central America?:cheeky:

Snake, I understand you are anti-Haitian and it's an issue that you need to deal with, I really cannot help you there. However, your posts regarding Haiti's invasions are misleading. Pick one of those wars that seem to make you hate Haitians and let's have a debate about it so that everyone can hear both sides.

On the union topic, I believe there must be closer cooperations between the two nations on several fronts like national security and protection of our environment. We must move beyond this blaming game that you did that to me and I did this to you.

 

[NALs]

Like I said before, Mr. Lu's response is exactly what the following explains:

The problem is this, the Dominican Republic is always the victim that no one sees as the victim.

In Spanish, nouns have genders. Hence, the Dominican Republic is female while Haiti is male.

With that in mind, the story of the DR and Haiti is akin to a woman that has been raped, abused, chastised, accused, discredited, attacked, and insulted by a man that has been lusting her since the day he laid his eyes on her.

The only thing this woman (Dominican Republic) wanted to do is be free, live her life according to her own terms. But that desire of her was often repressed by that man (Haiti) that often acted as a person with the ENTJ personality type; intimidating, calculating, with a strong desire to control her.

He always distrusted her, he always despised her, he always wanted her to die, to suffer, to be subject to his will, his power, his desires.

Now that she is freer than ever, she still shows signs of being traumatize from those years of excessive abuse from him. She fears him, to the point of being paranoid.

All he has to do is move a finger and she's already in panic mode.

All he has to do is open his mouth, and she's already feeling helpless and unable to cope.

All he has to do is look at her, and she looks down to the ground, an act of submission despite wanting to break free of this abusive relationship.

She, as the female, has been discredited, has been abused, has been used, has been subject to all sorts of horrors from him.

At times, the fear she had for him was so strong and her sense of helplessness was so strong, that she felt it was easier to commit suicide (ie. become a colony of Spain once more) than to continue living.

Now she is stronger than ever, she has finally evolved to a point that she is the stronger one, she is the most powerful one, she is more progressive than him; and despite that, he still knows how to turn that dagger and open the wounds, open the floodgates of emotions; reminding her of who's truly in charge. It's all a minds game, but its a game that has been played too well.

As always and as is often the case with women in traumatized situations, the victim is the one who is discredited, the victim is the one who is blamed, the victim is the one being expected to change her ways to appease to the desires of him.

Its a vicious cycle that of the power struggle of Hispaniola.

The funny thing is that its not so much a power struggle for the entire island, but rather a struggle of survival for her and of conquest for him.

He always finds a way to keep her in check, when not by force, he does it through lies and discrediting. When he can't control her physically, he controls her psychologically.

At the end of the day, in everyone's mind, the problem is not him with his aggressive ways; but her for standing up to his abuses and trying to put an end to all of this.

In the mind of many, she's nothing more than a whore while he is the "victim".

The fact that he has been the aggressive one and she is simply reacting as the traumatized being she is has no impact in that illusion.

See how it fits? :surprised

-NALs

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Dominican, Haiti universities to conduct immigrant census

Important census of Haitians living in the DR coming up in January.

Franklin Garcia Ferm?n and Jean Vernet Henry also agreed to include in the investigation the work the Haitians do in Dominican Republic, which aims to bolster relations between both countries.

Garcia said the agreement is historic for both academies, and hopes it will provide concrete data which will help to establish both Haitian and Dominican migratory policies, and spur the development of the two nations.

http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/lo...aiti-universities-to-conduct-immigrant-census


______________________________________________________________

La UASD y Universidad de Hait? realizaran censo para conocer cuantos haitianos hay en el pa?s

Garc?a Ferm?n dijo que el acuerdo contribuir? a la b?squeda de soluciones y salidas a muchas situaciones que afectan a ambas naciones,

http://elcaribecdn.com/articulo_mul...d=B6E4895F4DEC44F69B4E17FF41B5015A&Seccion=63

 

[Naked_Snake]

Debt? Yes, USA needed money for WWI and the Americans just cleaned up the region. If they invaded DR because of a 'debt or some sort', what were they doing in Haiti and central America?:cheeky:

Snake, I understand you are anti-Haitian and it's an issue that you need to deal with, I really cannot help you there. However, your posts regarding Haiti's invasions are misleading. Pick one of those wars that seem to make you hate Haitians and let's have a debate about it so that everyone can hear both sides.

On the union topic, I believe there must be closer cooperations between the two nations on several fronts like national security and protection of our environment. We must move beyond this blaming game that you did that to me and I did this to you.

If defending my country's interests is to be an anti-haitian, then the yanks are necessarily anti-arab by your definition. The only thing that I'm pointing out, a thing that people like Mr. Lu refuses to acknowledge, is that on the majority of the armed conflicts that have arisen between the DR and Haiti, the DR have ALWAYS been on the defensive side. Would you please point out to ONE instance in which dominican troops have crossed the border and looted, raped, and burned haitian villages? (and no, you can't use 1937, cuz' those attrocious events took place on dominican soil). Is it anti-haitian to point out the historical fact that the DR have always been the victim of a Sanko-Sakusen* on the part of the haitian soldiery?


P.S: Sanko-Sakusen*: Japanese scorched earth policy adopted in China during World War II, the three alls being: "Kill All", "Burn All" and "Loot All". In Japanese documents, the policy was originally referred to as "The Burn to Ash Strategy" (燼滅作戦, Jinmetsu Sakusen?). This policy was designed as a retaliation against Chinese Communists following the Hundred Regiments Offensive.

 

[Naked_Snake]

The funny thing, Haitian101, is that the conflict on the dominican part have been one of survival, as NALS poetically represented on his post. Sometimes I have to wonder if the DR's luck would fare differently if it decided to adopt the "winner-takes-all" approach that have characterized the haitian perspective. Now, the scary part is that haitian writers like Jean-Price Mars predicted the ongoing migrational issue on an era when Haiti and the DR were more or less economically equal (1953), specially when we take into account the fact that Haiti was in a position to avoid its current sad condition altogether.

 

[Exxtol]

Okay....

Another reason for why the island will never unite, albeit if the following is done it would facilitate even more cooperation between the two countries, is the fact that Haiti has yet to apologize for what can only be considered the rapes and insatiable attempts to kill the Dominican Republic; to erase the country from existence.

This is what Otto Schoenrich wrote in his 1918 book "Santo Domingo: A Country with a Future" (this is only a small sample of the atrocities that those people committed against the Dominicans on what essential became, was, and continues to be Dominican soil -read the part in the red boxes-):

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And, of course, the outright theft of the Dominican valley of Guava and what was part of Azua province which in those times Azua comprised the entire southwestern DR and modern central Haiti:

-NALs :ermm:

Nals,

Who is Otto Schoenrich? I can't find his biography anywhere.

 

[bob saunders]

I couldn't much either

Except that he was well regarded

SCHOENRICH, Otto - Santo Domingo: A Country with a Future. (New York: Macmillan) xiv,418 pages 22 cm hb, plates, maps, tables, appendix, [ca 1918] 1st ed; (New York: Gordon P) 418 pages hb, 1976 rep. Economics. International relations. Dominican Republic. Written to acquaint the public in the US at a time when the country was subject to US administration, the author thinks that the eventual political solution for it would be either a protectorate or annexation by the USA. 1st edition scarce. Bay, Bow, Gos, Gri, Hum, LOC, RES, Tra



SCHOENRICH, Otto - The Legacy of Christopher Columbus: The Historic Litigations Involving his Discoveries, his Will, his Family, and his Descendents . . . (Glendale, CA: Arthur H Clark) 2 vols, 24 cm, ills, 1949-1950. Discovery. Exploration. Christopher Columbus. Caribbean area. Concerned with disputes and litigation among the heirs of Columbus in respect of the privileges and rights granted to him. Hum, LOC



SCHOENRICH, Otto - [US jurist and author (1876-?). LOC.]

 

[pedrochemical]

Not so fast there Billy.....

Texas bill,
There really is too much that you say to quote and to respond.

But,
I admire your patriotism.
However, your country is a young nation - an independent nation for 226ish years now?
Bright, energetic, colourful, successful etc.
It might be your adolescence or the growing pains of puberty, but at the moment you guys just can't seem to keep it in your pants!
There are not many countries in CALA that you haven't 'intruded' on at one time. Interesting use of the word intrusion by the way. Made me chuckle. You might see 'intruding' as your right, even your duty - heck, my country has been 'intruding' on nations round the globe for over a thousand years - and back then things were really blood-thirsty. Like all great empires we faded and, although still G8, we don't count for diddley on the world political stage any more.
As the USA matures (and runs out of money) I am sure there will be another superpower there to take its place.

Just looking at history and making a stab at what night happen.

By the way, we were a once a small island nation a bit like Hispaniola - with a country very divided....

A few of my personal favourites of your slightly controversial 'intrusions' are as follows;

Panama sucked.
Grenada ? I mean Grenada???
Cuba - oops!
Guatemala (1954)
Dominican Republic (1965)
Nicaragua
Chile - do not deny this one!
El Salvador - nasty business this.
Panama
Haiti - debatable - the right thing for the wrong reasons?

Iran (1953) sucked also.
The Vietnam War
Congo - a bit dodgy -but we done worse.
France (1944) GOOD WORK THIS - THANK YOU TO ALL CONCERNED.:cheeky:

All ancient and great nations did it - and now that you guys get around a bit you are bound to make some enemies (especially the way you go around clobbering people on TV.)
Justifiable or not, you guys were not the first to do it - you will not be the last to do it.
It just sucks when it is being done to you - ask the 'intrudees'!!!!


Questions to Bill -

• Do you honestly beleive you guys are any different?
• How long do you think America's world predominance will last?
• Who will be the next world superpower?

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Last I heard the topic was Dominican Republic and Haiti.

 

[Mr. Lu]

.........

If defending my country's interests is to be an anti-haitian, then the yanks are necessarily anti-arab by your definition. The only thing that I'm pointing out, a thing that people like Mr. Lu refuses to acknowledge, is that on the majority of the armed conflicts that have arisen between the DR and Haiti, the DR have ALWAYS been on the defensive side.

I don't discount history. I just don't revise it to fit a perceived reality. Dates and events won't change, the way people tell the story does.

The DR is not a victim, it has just made itself to be one. Why? Being a victim allows you to languish in poverty and makes you believe that you are entitled to/deserve handouts. If this is what you want for your country......

On a side note, its fascinating how pro-Dominicanism is strongly tied to Anti-Haitianism. Is it self-esteem issues? Is it a lack of consciousness? Or is it just easier to blame "them" (Haitians, Americans etc.) instead of realizing "you" (Dominicans) are the problem?







Mr. Lu

 

[Mr. Lu]

............

Like I said before, Mr. Lu's response is exactly what the following explains:



See how it fits? :surprised

-NALs

If you could take a moment and explain...







On a side note, I see your poetic escapades have resulted in copy cat crimes....










Mr. Lu