Yes, pero vs sino vs mas was like the 5th conjunction lesson in Spanish Dict under Beginners.
- Thread starter NanSanPedro
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Pero o Sino?
What is wrong with phrase you bolded?
BTW- I saw that game. Fue un partidazo.
After the game Vladdy was interviewed with an interpreter and he said: Ésta es la casa de nosotro…..I was laughing my head off ‘tú m‘entiende’ in pure Dominican lingo.
<<Vladimir Guerrero Jr. tomó un rol protagónico en el pleito que se desató en la tercera entrada del partido ante los Medias Rojas este miércoles, cuando el abridor del conjunto de Boston, Nick Pivetta golpeó al receptor de Toronto, Alejandro Kirk con una recta>>.
There should be commas after Pivetta and Kirk.
Of course and I do that but that is not the solution because if you are the author and the proofreader it’s harder to catch your own errors. There is a technique behind proofreading but I am not going get into that here. In my opinion, the window for editing is too tight but let’s move on since it’s not the topic of the thread.
Well, I think you will find punctuation in general is a challenge for many. I can’t say that I zeroed in on that in that phrase. Bad grammar and ambiguos sentences irritate me a lot more. Journalism should be close to perfect and the writing level should be elementary grade level. That is where you see many flaws. I think Hoy Digital and El Nacional win top prize for that and the local community DR newspapers are horrendous. I always wonder if these same journalists can read and appreciate good Spanish. What would they think about the writing of Carlos Alberto Montaner, Isabel Allende, Jaime Bayly, Mario Benedetti etc. these are the authors I read and notably all are a cut above.
The DR is the only country where casimente is heard. I think every Spanish-speaking country has a blunder like this. That one along with adding S where it does not belong are classic DR speech blunders. The adding of S of course is a hyper correction and many have no clue when to add it and when not to since it is almost never used in local speech.
And then there's the classic corrupción, which most politicians and communicators always mangle, whether replacing the 'P' with a 'C' or a 'T', or missing it all together:
Corrucción, corrut-to, or just plain corrución and corruto.
I only focus on the communicators, as they're the folks with a national voice and should know better.
Missing or adding an 'S' drives me crazy, with the exception of víStima, which has been popular for several years after a Chilean lady mispronounced víCtima while being interviewed.
Corrucción, corrut-to, or just plain corrución and corruto.
I only focus on the communicators, as they're the folks with a national voice and should know better.
Missing or adding an 'S' drives me crazy, with the exception of víStima, which has been popular for several years after a Chilean lady mispronounced víCtima while being interviewed.
@Lucifer
I have never heard the mispronunciation of corrupción that you referenced. I will listen more carefully now. You are right though. Those with a national voice should speak the language well. That is why journalists should have an above average command of Spanish too since they are writing for the public and their ability to write well defines their credibility. Their command of the language should be unquestionable as well as the correct usage of words. At least the sentence structure should be the traditional S+V+O and no run on phrases. Actually, long sentences are not characteristic of Spanish. Long phrases are more prevalent in English.
Dropping the S is a characteristic of Caribbean Spanish. The S is practically nonexistent in the spoken language. However, it should be written when required in verb conjugations, to indicate the plural or at the beginning of words (when the previous word end with an S ). Those rules are intact. What I find really concerning is when it’s omitted in the above mentioned scenarios. The spoken language is one aspect of speech and the written language is where all the grammar rules and spelling apply. That has not changed in Spanish.
Anyone who speaks Caribbean Spanish will drop the S. Even it is minimal an S somewhere will be left out. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that and it is very noted in the Antilles, all three islands 🇨🇺🇩🇴🇵🇷. Using DR as an example, it is the awful written form of many that we often see which shows how much the spoken language influences how people write. People say la mujere but it should be written las mujeres. People say tú dice but it should be written tú dices. If you read a paragraph with words written incorrectly like my examples it turns out to be an unintelligible form of Spanish. That is what you get in text messages, emails, Instagram posts etc. from people who speak Spanish but have no real command of the language per se. They speak but they can’t write.
I wrote an article a few months ago about the characteristics of Cuban Spanish and there’s a lot of similarities between Cuba and DR and Cuba and PR. The Spanish from these three islands share a lot in common because of their history. The Spaniards that came to the Caribbean from Andalucía, the Canary Islands and the slave trade, those populations left their influence on the language and created the variations that you still hear today. No S and no D are the top two makers of Caribbean Spanish. The vocabulary does vary across the three islands but the structure of spoken language is the same.
My classic DR examples of adding S where it does not belong are: la bosca, él se vas. This week I heard todo los bueno…These examples just show how many people have no clue how Spanish works grammatically and will have never have exposure to good Spanish.
I have never heard the mispronunciation of corrupción that you referenced. I will listen more carefully now. You are right though. Those with a national voice should speak the language well. That is why journalists should have an above average command of Spanish too since they are writing for the public and their ability to write well defines their credibility. Their command of the language should be unquestionable as well as the correct usage of words. At least the sentence structure should be the traditional S+V+O and no run on phrases. Actually, long sentences are not characteristic of Spanish. Long phrases are more prevalent in English.
Dropping the S is a characteristic of Caribbean Spanish. The S is practically nonexistent in the spoken language. However, it should be written when required in verb conjugations, to indicate the plural or at the beginning of words (when the previous word end with an S ). Those rules are intact. What I find really concerning is when it’s omitted in the above mentioned scenarios. The spoken language is one aspect of speech and the written language is where all the grammar rules and spelling apply. That has not changed in Spanish.
Anyone who speaks Caribbean Spanish will drop the S. Even it is minimal an S somewhere will be left out. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that and it is very noted in the Antilles, all three islands 🇨🇺🇩🇴🇵🇷. Using DR as an example, it is the awful written form of many that we often see which shows how much the spoken language influences how people write. People say la mujere but it should be written las mujeres. People say tú dice but it should be written tú dices. If you read a paragraph with words written incorrectly like my examples it turns out to be an unintelligible form of Spanish. That is what you get in text messages, emails, Instagram posts etc. from people who speak Spanish but have no real command of the language per se. They speak but they can’t write.
I wrote an article a few months ago about the characteristics of Cuban Spanish and there’s a lot of similarities between Cuba and DR and Cuba and PR. The Spanish from these three islands share a lot in common because of their history. The Spaniards that came to the Caribbean from Andalucía, the Canary Islands and the slave trade, those populations left their influence on the language and created the variations that you still hear today. No S and no D are the top two makers of Caribbean Spanish. The vocabulary does vary across the three islands but the structure of spoken language is the same.
My classic DR examples of adding S where it does not belong are: la bosca, él se vas. This week I heard todo los bueno…These examples just show how many people have no clue how Spanish works grammatically and will have never have exposure to good Spanish.
A little, or a lot, of both.
La jocosidad del dominicano knows no bounds, and it is in speech where it's most evident, where even the educated elites break the rules of proper speaking, and I like it when it's a spur of the moment or in a catchy political campaign slogan: E' pa' fuera que van.
Somehow, Es para afuera que van a ir doesn't have the same effect - it's too formal.
Then take, for instance, the time Rafael Albuquerque, a very influential PRD/PRM politician and public intellectual, summoned the crowd to invade the premises of the Municipal league with his cry: <<ENTREN TO', COÑO>>. In a disorganized setting, as most political rallies are in the D.R., shouting Entren todos would've sounded weird if followed by the expletive.
Then there's the obligatory poetic license afforded to recording acts and writers: Antony Santos's reconquering love theme, "Voy Pa' Allá" which, when pronounced, omits the first syllable in 'allá', resulting in "Voy Pa' llá"... Voy para allá just doesn't do it
"Vamo' hablar inglé'" is a típico song by Fefita La Grande, where she drops the 'S' in vamos and inglés, but keeps the 'R' in hablar, which is unusual in everyday speech: Mi gente, hoy vamo' a comé mango'; me toca trabajá e'te lune'; tengo que cogé do' trene' pa' llegá al centro.
That’s a profound question worthy of a face to face conversion. However, in the absence of that I will give my opinion in brief.
I think those who say it’s lazy speech are foreigners, non Spanish speakers, or even if they have learned the language to some agree. This has been my observation. As mentioned in my previous post the characteristics of Spanish from the Caribbean answer questions that many people have about the speech patterns that are noted. Linguistic studies breakdown the specifics of Caribbean speech. The history of the region is so key in understanding how and why it differs so much from standard Spanish.
A child who learns to speak in DR, Cuba and PR is going speak like his/ her parents. Are you going say the child has lazy speech? At three years old when a parent says <ven pa’ca> is the child going to say < Mom, that is lazy speech >. My point is this speech pattern is from day one. Where the issue lies is in the educational aspect. Schools should be teaching academic Spanish and I know for a fact that local speech patterns hamper the success of this. Students in the higher grades technically can’t write a grammatically correct sentence because they write the way they speak. They need to know the difference. This is where I agree that it can be said to be uneducated only if the speaker does not know the difference or how to say certain phrases in standard Spanish. It’s hard for many. I have seen it.
However, the language of the Caribbean is what is and it is not changing. What you hear is a reflection of a large speech population. It can be fast, dropping the S can make speaking Spanish easier (the linking of words), it can be incomprehensible, there are so many nuances going at the same time etc. but that is what makes Caribbean Spanish unique even melodic. Some people like the drier, flat, monotone sounding Spanish from Madrid or Aragón. Some like the phonetic variation of Argentinian and Uruguayan Spanish and that is not phonetically correct. To say plasha, posho is not correct. No grammar book or dictionary has those words.
To end on this note if you like salsa listen to the music of Hector Lavoe.That is the ultimate in Caribbean speech. The lyrics of his songs are an example right there and also proof that it is a speech pattern native to the Antilles. It is not about being lazy. That is the way people speak and education does and does not influence it to a certain degree. Educated Caribbean Spanish speakers have all the speech patterns too. The subtle difference though is in the grammar. Pure observation on my part. <Échate pa’ca y tú no estás en na’> Hector Lavoe. Song- El malo.
@Lucifer
From an article today in Listín Diario:
You see the power of the S dropping. It never fails. Junto should be juntos but because of Caribbean popular speech people miss the S in writing and in Spanish academic circles this is heavily criticized. La fans is a whole different story. I am trying to figure why Spanish speakers (who presumably don't speak English) have not figured out that fans is plural in English. You have a fan of baseball or fans of baseball. I also see this wrong in social media- Es una fans del cantante. Really? This is when language borrowing has created incorrect word usage in the target language.
listindiario.com
From an article today in Listín Diario:
You see the power of the S dropping. It never fails. Junto should be juntos but because of Caribbean popular speech people miss the S in writing and in Spanish academic circles this is heavily criticized. La fans is a whole different story. I am trying to figure why Spanish speakers (who presumably don't speak English) have not figured out that fans is plural in English. You have a fan of baseball or fans of baseball. I also see this wrong in social media- Es una fans del cantante. Really? This is when language borrowing has created incorrect word usage in the target language.
Vlad Jr. recibe primer pitcheo ceremonial de su papá Vladimir
Poco despues de que los fans de los Azulejos hicieran fila el sabado para conseguir un muñeco bobblehead de Vladimir Guerrero y Vladimir Guerrero Jr., padr
listindiario.com
It irritates me when media folks and entities in the D.R. insist on using English words, and using them incorrectly to boot!@Lucifer
From an article today in Listín Diario:
You see the power of the S dropping. It never fails. Junto should be juntos but because of Caribbean popular speech people miss the S in writing and in Spanish academic circles this is heavily criticized. La fans is a whole different story. I am trying to figure why Spanish speakers (who presumably don't speak English) have not figured out that fans is plural in English. You have a fan of baseball or fans of baseball. I also see this wrong in social media- Es una fans del cantante. Really? This is when language borrowing has created incorrect word usage in the target language.
Vlad Jr. recibe primer pitcheo ceremonial de su papá Vladimir
Poco despues de que los fans de los Azulejos hicieran fila el sabado para conseguir un muñeco bobblehead de Vladimir Guerrero y Vladimir Guerrero Jr., padr
We can't deny the U.S. influence on the D.R., but a society that can hardly speak its own official language properly shouldn't be borrowing from a foreign one and using it incorrectly. I've even heard communicators say Modo operandi.
Some of the things I've heard from folks on TV and real estate promoters in YouTube
<<Lo' carro' racing hacen mucha bulla>>.
<<E'te apaLtamento tiene un living y do' habitacione'>>.
From today's El Diario La Prensa, a Spanish language newspaper in NYC:
<<Las periodistas Laura Fa y Lorena Vázquez, del podcast Mamarazzis, adelantaron que el central culé habría engañado a la madre de sus hijos con una joven rubia. Además, no solo pasa días y noches en su apartamento de soltero, sino que también está desatado de fiesta, junto con su compañero Riqui Puig>>.
<<De acuerdo con el informe policial, el Juzgado Segundo de Letras de La Esperanza, Intibucá, habría ordenado previamente su captura desde el 15 de marzo de este año, sin embargo, no fue sino hasta este sábado que lo detuvieron>>.
<<Las periodistas Laura Fa y Lorena Vázquez, del podcast Mamarazzis, adelantaron que el central culé habría engañado a la madre de sus hijos con una joven rubia. Además, no solo pasa días y noches en su apartamento de soltero, sino que también está desatado de fiesta, junto con su compañero Riqui Puig>>.
<<De acuerdo con el informe policial, el Juzgado Segundo de Letras de La Esperanza, Intibucá, habría ordenado previamente su captura desde el 15 de marzo de este año, sin embargo, no fue sino hasta este sábado que lo detuvieron>>.
Thanks. I wanted Nan to see the usage in phrases.
sino que - that is another grammar point.
sino- in that phrase the usage is not as common in my experience but it’s a good example.
Gracias 👍