Politics in the D.R

[NALs]

But NALs - there is politics, and there is personal relationships. Politicians are elected to serve everyone, not only their personal network of friends and family. There has to be a balance between serving both, which does not exist in the DR. E.g. there is a fair amount of corruption and nepotism in Spain, but at the same time enough is usually put to the common good for the country to move forward.

The two are not mutually exclusive in the DR.

You progress and you must share your progress with those whom you trust and admire.

In a real democracy, politicians are elected to serve everyone, but that is only true in real democracies. In premature democracies -countries that had democracy forced upon them by external powers without taking into consideration that democracy is not just having institutions, but also an attitude, a culture, a way of thinking which needed to be developed in traditional societies prior to imposing democracy- the fact that the traditional ways of thinking were never challenged had lead to what is seen not just in the DR, but all over the Third World.

In essence, you have the democratic institutions in place, the state looks like those of the First World; but it functions like those of a Third World because the most fundamental aspect of democracy was not addressed when it was imposed on such country.

Its similar to giving money to extremely poor people and then letting them do what they want, in the process hoping they act in the same rational manner that wealthier people act with such money. The fact is that its an illusion. You give extremely poor people money without psychologically preparing them for such, and within months they will have spent the money and will be poor again.

That's the problem with many people with First World mentality. Many think that if you simply create the institutions of democracy that Third World people would then grow into them and eventually act in a democratic fashion, but that's all B.S. Democracy is not something than can be imposed on people. People don't grow into the democracy, people create it!

You cannot expect that a person who is used to wearing dirty clothes will suddenly become better educated and modern by simply wearing a new suit. It won't happen. The suit will become dirty and rip apart, why?

Sugar coating doesn't work!

Then we have to ask ourselves the question of whether its right to impose on others your views, completely disregarding their own value systems which are as strong and they believe in as much as you do in yours. Both sides believe they are right and both sides see the "proofs" that justifies their beliefs.

What are those "proofs"? Well, it depends if you are materialistic or people focused. Hence, both sides don't understand how the other one's can act so "immoral".

-NALs

 

[Lambada]

OK, I accept some of this in that I understand how and why clientilism happens. It is easier than the alternative, and it fulfils a function for both patron and client in the short term.

However, I refuse to accept that it is the fact that we are foreign that informs our rejection of it. Adriano Miguel Tejada, who is Dominican, is not exactly a lone voice.

It would fulfil a function for both patron & client IF the relationship was one of equals. But in the DR they are not 'equals'. Thus it is essentially a mechanism of oppression & exploitation.

Where's Mirador when you need him?

 

[NALs]

OK, I accept some of this in that I understand how and why clientilism happens. It is easier than the alternative, and it fulfils a function for both patron and client in the short term.

However, I refuse to accept that it is the fact that we are foreign that informs our rejection of it. Adriano Miguel Tejada, who is Dominican, is not exactly a lone voice.

Adriano Miguel Tejada and many other Dominicans have been influenced by foreign ideas, principally those emanating from the United States. Its a tiny minority, for the time being at least.

He is seen with as much distrust in his foreign inspired ideas as foreigners are seen in the DR by the more traditional Dominicans, which is probably 90% of the people. The distrust comes from the shock of how less of an importance personal relationships are in the minds of people who are, in essence, more modern. You simply don't do that, unless you are immoral. That's the general mindset.

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

NALs - that's where education comes in. I agree it is not enough to install the institutions and structures of democracy. By withholding/restricting education, the politicians are ensuring that this democracy remains premature.

Lambada - I agree with what you're saying in the broader sense, but it does fulfil a purpose for the client in the immediate short term - the instant gratification of receiving RD$500/a zinc roof/a piglet or whatever.

 

[Chirimoya]

Adriano Miguel Tejada and many other Dominicans have been influenced by foreign ideas, principally those emanating from the United States. Its a tiny minority, for the time being at least.

He is seen with as much distrust in his foreign inspired ideas as foreigners are seen in the DR by the more traditional Dominicans, which is probably 90% of the people. The distrust comes from the shock of how less of an importance personal relationships are in the minds of people who are, in essence, more modern. You simply don't do that, unless you are immoral. That's the general mindset.

-NALs

I disagree with every fibre of this post. Don't have time to pick it apart now, though. Maybe someone else will do the honours?

 

[NALs]

NALs - that's where education comes in. I agree it is not enough to install the institutions and structures of democracy. By withholding/restricting education, the politicians are ensuring that this democracy remains premature.

That's a First World point of view, the local point of view of this is dominated by what I have been stating here, that relationships and people are the ultimate concern above all else.

Hence, you invest in what will benefit your relationships with your closest people, not in strangers. The vast majority of the people outside the political process are those "strangers".

You simply don't put strangers ahead of family and friends. That is immoral, unacceptable, and anyone who practices such can expect severe repercussions through chastisement, ridicule, and the breakage of many of the trust and relationship he had with his closest people.

-NALs

 

[Lambada]

I think in many ways, Chiri, we're on the same page: we understand where it comes from & how it operates, foreigners though we are :cheeky:. And I don't think either you or I are into imposing our mindsets on others. But the inherent self-perpetuation of this peonage system is only attackable when people say 'enough'. And Nals, I would disagree, more & more people are saying 'enough'. Tejada is NOT alone. From the breadshop to the colmado to Tropical supermarket to the Casa de Cultura, there are voices in Puerto Plata (speaking of where I live & hear the voices) that can both see the exploitation & have had enough of the system which perpetuates it. The status quo is convenient for those who benefit from it most & those are the patrons. Thus it suits them if change comes veeeeery slowly. Involuntary servitude is exactly that - not voluntary. Well.............maybe those fostering the continuation of the status quo need to open their eyes, otherwise the level of discontent will spill over into anything BUT slow change.

Defining the virtue of education as a First World mindset, Nals, kind of dismisses in one sentence most of what is going on in third world countries throughout the world. And is convenient for your argument in the same way as clientilism is convenient for those Dominican politicians who benefit from it most...........

What the arrival of TV & foreigners has done here is to make people ask 'why can't I have some of that lifestyle?'. And the less scrupulous are seeking to achieve that through the newest little (?) earner - the drug business. But don't forget the vast majority, those people who want change in a legal manner.

When you get alliances being formed by the business sector, the intellectuals and the poor you have to think Paris 1968.................

 

[NALs]

What people say and what people do are two different things.

What I'm talking about is not just limited to politics, it permeates every aspect of life in the DR. There is no escape from it.

So, people can say that they are disgusted with the politics, not really understanding that the way the politics function is the same way their personal relationships, their day to day life functions.

If people truly want change, they must first be willing to truly change. Most people say they want change and most people only limit such desire for change in politics, but it goes beyond that. Its in everything and wishing for change in one sphere while wanting to keep it in tact in another is hypocritical.

The Dominicans willing to change their ways entirely, from the personal level all the up to the political level, are a small minority. Why? Because everyone benefits from this system, but at different levels, different people receive different benefits.

Stop focusing solely on politics and economics and see the whole picture. This is something that exist beyond the elites, beyond politics, and beyond economics. Its in everything Dominican, much in the same way matter is in everything and everywhere.

-NALs

 

[cobraboy]

I'm no authority on Dominican politics, but as an observer of human nature...of which Dominicans are a part of...seems everyone wants the ~other~ guy to change for the sake of society, just not themselves.

In the US, everyone complains about the crooks in Congress, vote the bastards out, but the keep voting for ~their~ representative, because HE'S different from the others.

I imagine the Greeks and Romans had the same problem.

:cheeky:

 

[Kemo]

excellent points. But the phenomenom is all over latin america Politics becomes a career to serve one's ambitions economically. Well in the dominican republic is done more openly the corruption that maybe in western countries the difference is there are a general accountability processes that make much much harder to have the type of corruption like in the D.R. The public tolerance torse corruption is an accepted practice unless that politician decides openly to keep all the corruption $$$$$ and not distribute at least a little to the mases. D.R and allot of countries in latin america have the highest percentages in the world of Rich Coronel, Generals and so on. Is incredible i know some generals in Casa de campo and they have million dollars houses, Hummers, porsches, BMW so on incredible the amount of money that go thru those people's hands. For example i meet General Shalikasvili once in New york he leaves in a middle upper class neighborhood in New Jersey he is a 5 star general of the U.S army chairman of the Joint chiefs of staff under clinton of the most powerful and riches army in the world his salary is a base 200,000 dollars a year!!!!! in the D.R a lower rank general has millions of dollars?????

 

[BushBaby]

Am I understanding NALs correctly? Is he suggesting that third world countries should be left to develope their own 'democracies' without first world interference??

Is he also suggesting that it is alright to under-educate the popluce so as to keep 'Those That Have' in a position where they can KEEP what they & their friends have? INVESTING in the children of the country is NOT investing with strangers ...... it is investing in the FUTURE of the country - something 'Those That Have' are far too self propagating to understand. ~ Grahame.

 

[NALs]

I'm no authority on Dominican politics, but as an observer of human nature...of which Dominicans are a part of...seems everyone wants the ~other~ guy to change for the sake of society, just not themselves.

:cheeky:

Cobraboy got it!

Its always the other guy.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

Am I understanding NALs correctly? Is he suggesting that third world countries should be left to develope their own 'democracies' without first world interference??

Is he also suggesting that it is alright to under-educate the popluce so as to keep 'Those That Have' in a position where they can KEEP what they & their friends have? INVESTING in the children of the country is NOT investing with starngers ...... it is investing in the FUTURE of the country - something 'Those That Have' are far too self propagating to understand. ~ Grahame.

No, you are not understanding me correctly, but Cobraboy does. Ask him or re-read what I posted without seeing beyond what is being said.

-NALs:tired:

 

[El_Uruguayo]

I agree with the article, and I do agree with some of what NALs is saying, but the whole morality question regarding the 3rd world vs 1st world mentalities I don't. You're putting it out there that dominicans aren't materialistic people, and there sole focus is their familly. It kind of put things as "every man to themselves", but if your my friend, I'll leave you alone. Saying that the "people focus", is the charm of the domicans is correct, but that they are not materialistic is wrong. Everyone is materialistic, some dominicans like to lead social lives, their work and their material things take a hit due to this - but when someone in their circle has something, they will want some too. Many dominicans don't seem to have any problems asking strangers for help, foreigners especially - so while some might despise the wealth of foreigners, they would also like to experience it, or get a cut. Politics(and also tourism) only reinforces this, through handouts and under funding education,but it's not a good thing. Saying that if these things were to change, they would become less dominican, is completely wrong.

As I said, it's every man to themselves - unless you're in my circle. The vast amount of corruption, greased palms, theft, hightened prices is only proof that it is a materialistic society, and that it is not such a question of benefiting strangers before familly, it's about benefitting yourself from strangers, before benefitting yourself from familly.

The entire 3rd world is not like this, they have been able to advance and have democracies as strong, if not stronger than in NA. Education, social policies, good economies with everyone benefetting. Although there may be people who take a bigger piece of the pie, you don't see the desparity of people driving ferraris and lamborghinis, but neither do you see that many people sleeping on cardboard at construction sites.


*I realise my arguments might not be presented the best, that's just how it came out*

 

[Chirimoya]

I think in many ways, Chiri, we're on the same page: we understand where it comes from & how it operates, foreigners though we are :cheeky:. And I don't think either you or I are into imposing our mindsets on others. But the inherent self-perpetuation of this peonage system is only attackable when people say 'enough'. And Nals, I would disagree, more & more people are saying 'enough'. Tejada is NOT alone. From the breadshop to the colmado to Tropical supermarket to the Casa de Cultura, there are voices in Puerto Plata (speaking of where I live & hear the voices) that can both see the exploitation & have had enough of the system which perpetuates it. The status quo is convenient for those who benefit from it most & those are the patrons. Thus it suits them if change comes veeeeery slowly. Involuntary servitude is exactly that - not voluntary. Well.............maybe those fostering the continuation of the status quo need to open their eyes, otherwise the level of discontent will spill over into anything BUT slow change.

I hear it too - not only in the media and from intellectuals - but from ordinary Dominicans I meet in the course of my work. But it's our word against NALs's. Having said that, I do agree with NALs's point that there are people who will criticise it while remaining part of that system.

Defining the virtue of education as a First World mindset, Nals, kind of dismisses in one sentence most of what is going on in third world countries throughout the world. And is convenient for your argument in the same way as clientilism is convenient for those Dominican politicians who benefit from it most...........

Sums it up, really.

 

[Chirimoya]

Cobraboy got it!

Its always the other guy.

-NALs

While agreeing that there are some people who have no intention of practicing what they preach, that "always" is kind of insulting to the Dominicans who ARE working for the benefit of their communities. YOUR paths may not have crossed with them, but they DO exist.

 

[NALs]

While agreeing that there are some people who have no intention of practicing what they preach, that "always" is kind of insulting to the Dominicans who ARE working for the benefit of their communities. YOUR paths may not have crossed with them, but they DO exist.

I never said they don't exist, but they are still a minority. It could very well be a growing minority, but a minority they still are.

-NALs

 

[Kemo]

I took a course( seminar) promoted by World economic Forum in Harvard Business in 1998

This is logic and Scientific


Poor Nutrition=Poor Brain development=Ignorance=POVERTY???????


This shows that it is extremely important that the world and the dominican government tackles malnutrition in the first 5 years of child nutrition is extremely important for brain development!!!!! that is why it is extremely hard to re- educated the majority of people in the D.R and in the thirds world in general.

 

[cobraboy]

I hear it too - not only in the media and from intellectuals - but from ordinary Dominicans I meet in the course of my work. But it's our word against NALs's. Having said that, I do agree with NALs's point that there are people who will criticise it while remaining part of that system.


Sums it up, really.

CB's Law of Rhetoric Economics: The reason "Talk is Cheap" is because the Supply exceds the Demand.

The single greatest indicator of government dissatisfaction in a democracy or Republic is what happens at the ballot box.

Folks, intellectuals, the barrio inhabitants, and society movers and shakers all have the opportunity to voice their dissatifaction. But there seems to be a disconnect between what the say, and what they vote.

In a free democracy, there is no need for riots and pitchforks like was seen in Eastern Europe for citizens to address their complaints with the power structure.

Ask people if they are honest, and you will get 100% "yes". Ask the same folks if they know dishonest people and, again, you'll get 100% "yes". A cognitive disconnect.

My point is that it's always the ~other~ guy at fault, not you, your family or friends.

Human nature.

 

[cobraboy]

that "always" is kind of insulting to the Dominicans who ARE working for the benefit of their communities

You mean the benefits THOSE Dominicans think should be made, or the benefits the ~other~ guy thinks should be created?

There is a difference.

Do-Gooders of whatever flavor are always frustrated when their great ideas are not adopted by those whom they know are of lesser intellect, and their noble intentions are not properly praised.

It's the way of the world.