Poor, clean and safe

[PICHARDO]

What fences? There are more fences,barred windows, and gated comunities in the DR.

All I will say is this, a poor person is better off in Cuba than the DR.

Even the hotel workers are educated, that must be why they don't look at tourists like a winning lotto ticket that fell from the sky.:cheeky:

AnnaC, when we were under the dictatorial and post dictatorial era, the DR enjoyed the crime free (even better) than the Cuba you speak of!

It's called collective misery! Where people share the same level of living regardless...

A poor person better off in Cuba than the DR? Hardly! In the DR poor people can and will work and move to whatever place they want. In Cuba, internal migration controls keep the rural people from moving to the bigger cities to exploit their chances at betterment. Once born to a dirt patch of land there, you're chained to it for good, unless a gov link or communist party member of sorts with high rank.

Just recently Cuban authorities "Deported" a sh*t load of people from Havana and other cities back to their rural towns and even poorer sections...

You don't see poverty in Cuban streets b/c they're not allowed to migrate and better their odds in life. In the DR you can move from the campos in the coasts (most foreigner?s think of them as actual cities) to Ave Anacaona and no authority will stop you or turn you back. One thing that Haitians have found to their liking and exploit to 100% in our country.

Unlike Cuba, we imported over 15% of poverty into our country of the poorest to walk the earth! We have an open doors policy that's being exploited by drug dealers and organized crime. We have NGOs and religious groups that keep bringing more poverty (in their view their best option to offer a shot at life for these poor folks) from Haiti via their humanitarian work.

Once Cuba gets to open the doors to the outside world and allow their citizens to move freely inside as well, you'll see crime get so high that Detroit city will look like child's play...

What the heck are they going to steal by breaking and entry? A 1914 toaster?

What are they going to get by holding up someone in the streets? Their monthly rations card?

 

[Berzin]

I did not get the information from any links. I have been to cuba several times and I am writing based on personal experience of what I have seen and also have been told by cubans living there.

If you had indicated the aspects that seemed incorrect to you, then perhaps I might have more to say.

Sholly

Prostitution, in all its forms, is alive and well in Cuba. Don't kid yourself about any sector of that or any other society that has successfully curbed the human desire to buy and sell sex.

You can't stop it, you can only hope to contain it.

Castro can do whatever he wants-with the advent of the internet, all bets are off on Cuba being free of international whoremongers.

Those resort workers may be at risk to losing their jobs, but that doesn't mean there is no way around it.

Just ask a friend of mine who is sending money to a maid in an upscale hotel in Havana that he is putting through school.:cheeky:

 

[PICHARDO]

What freedoms do Dominicans have? The freedom to vote for one corrupt government after another? Do they have free education and health care?
Oh wait I forgot the vast majority of poor Dominicans can leave the country anytime they want but no one will give them a visa even for a week's vacation.


Dominicans don't need to risk their life to get to Cuba. They don't even need a visa to get there. But Cuba doesn't have streets paved with gold like NY don't you know :cheeky:

But those with some money go there to get educated.


Anyway,
like Hillbilly said there was a time and even I remember a different time in the DR and it saddens me so much how it's changed now with guns and drugs in the country.

AnnaC, Dominicans can get FREE medical care when visiting any public health facility in the DR!!! Last time I checked, public Hospitals are free of charge to nationals...

Also the kids go to state funded public schools, or do they charge for this too? I think we're talking about two different countries here...

Have you got any Cuban friends? The health care of Cuba is just the same as in the DR, yet our services don?t only go the extra mile to foreigners for propaganda. Dominican citizens that can't afford private care get whatever is available to aid in their recuperation; whereareas in Cuba, only foreigners get to experience the 5 star public health care. The rest of the population must make do with the constant lack of basic stuff in the Hospitals, like even alcohol!!! I have been to Cuba plenty of times, so don't conclude knowing it all about it since all you got is the POV of a tourist there. Talk to some Cubans here and let them educate you on the real Cuba away from propaganda...

The Dominicans that go to Cuba for education are invited by the Cuban gov to further their propaganda, ask if they have open admissions to all students in the DR first!

The majority of Dominicans can ill afford the fare to the Airport, let alone to pay for a passport and travel expenses to the countries that accept Dominicans without a travel Visa. The same plays out to the myriad of people in other LA countries... It's called economics...

 

[PICHARDO]

I'm sorry, I have the wrong info.

Cuba offers scholarships to people from low income families from any country.

::: IFCO / Pastors for Peace :::

Medical School in Cuba!

How is the Dominican government doing on educating it's people?

The DR runs state funded UASD with a far more open registry than that in Cuba. The scholarships you posted above are not as easy to enjoy as you think! Try and live with what they offer you while studying in Cuba without help from home and soon you have another poor person entering the crowd in Cuba. The scholarships are not as inclusive or covering as you think! Again you have not idea of the propaganda machine in Cuba.

If you really think Cuba is so great and does so much for the people, why don't you try living there for a year and then come back to post fact based opinions on the matter? In Cuba you can't spot garbage b/c they can't afford to throw away sh*t! Everything gets a second, third and post mortem use.

That's not out of education but survival instincts...

 

[PICHARDO]

Sanky panky is alive in cuba but rarely would you find cuban hotel workers involved in this business unlike in the DR. In cuba, it is forbidden for a hotel worker to date a tourist staying in the hotel at which they are working and if discovered could lose his/her job. It could happen in secret but not in the open like in the DR where you will see male hotel workers openly trying to hit on female tourists. That is a no-no in cuba and hotel workers are not too eager to jeopardize their employment for a gringa. The fact is that a hotel worker in cuba could earn as tips in a day, what his fellow cuban would earn in a month. The average wage in cuba is about $20 per month and some hotel workers can earn this in tips in a day. Also is the fact that most tourists will bring them gifts and so it is really considered a privileged job in cuba and sought by many. A doctor earns about $30 per month and I have heard stories of educated professionals who have left their jobs to go and serve food in some A.I.

Most sanky pankies in cuba usually operate from the clubs/bars or at the beach to pick up gringas and when you see them, it is so obvious that they come from the lower end of the economic ladder in cuba. Also in cuba, the stigma of dating a tourist is much higher than in the DR. Also you have to consider the fact that in cuba, there are many girls who have been sent to prison on suspicion of being a prostitute while caught in the company of a tourist.

Sholly

And the DR is soooooooooooooooooo backwards!!!!

 

[AnnaC]

Here's a picture that is DR related

So, if we dispense with the DR, Cuba, USA Bashing for the time being, does the OP have any good pictures that you could share?

:cheeky:

Can anyone guess who this is?

 

[Sholly24]

What lower end of the economic ladder - everyone is supposed to be equal. Castro actually advertised the beauty and hotbloodness of Cuban women to attract tourist Dollars after his revolution was no longer subsidized by the Soviets. Unfortunately he underestimated two things ; the spread of Sexual related diseases and the attractive of the business to poor people and the buying power they suddenly had. Prostitutes are thrown in rehabilitation camps mainly as a power move- its all about control under Castro.

Everybody is supposed to be equal in cuba but the truth is that not everyone is equal in cuba. Cuba has it's own version of middle class, upper middle class and upper class and some of them can be snobbish to tourists. They may not have much money but generally they have most of the basic comforts of life and are quite content and their kids dare not date a tourist. Actually their kids can date a tourist who is of the same age bracket as their kids but even at that, some of the girls that are really beautiful will not even give a tourist the light of day (with all his money) if he does not come close in looks to the cuban boys that they usually date.

Some of them live in the swankiest areas of havana (like Miramar) in nice big houses with swimming pool and when their kids have parties, they invite their friends who are in the same social class as themselves who are very well dressed in the latest of fashion and are in university or graduates from universities (medical students, doctors, engineers, accountants etc). Most have laptops,desktops, ipods etc and are internet and computer savy because some of them have internet access (dial up) at home and they can go on-line anytime and they are abreast with all the happenings in the rest of the world. Also there is cable (illegal) service available in cuba where they have access to many foreign stations. Actually at times during the parties, the internet access on the desktop is on and guests can go on-line and check e-mail, surf etc while the foreign cable channels are also showing. It might sound as a figment of imagination to some people who have some vision of cuba but it exists because I have had the opportunity to attend a few of these parties. Castro may try to give the impression that everyone is equal in cuba but it is a lie. Even in cuba, there is a class system that is carefully hidden behind the scenes and from the naked eye.

Some of these kids have travelled out of cuba to countries like italy, spain,mexico and the US and I have seen some of the pictures that they have taken of their trips. And when you ask them why they would want to come back to cuba, they just laugh and tell you that they cannot live anywhere else. They are quite happy in cuba and have no wish to leave.

Sholly

 

[bob saunders]

Quote : Most sanky pankies in cuba usually operate from the clubs/bars or at the beach to pick up gringas and when you see them, it is so obvious that they come from the lower end of the economic ladder in cuba. Also in cuba, the stigma of dating a tourist is much higher than in the DR. Also you have to consider the fact that in cuba, there are many girls who have been sent to prison on suspicion of being a prostitute while caught in the company of a tourist. Solly Quote.

Cuba may be a bit of a police state but what actually happen is the girl gets off with a warning the first time and her info is recorded in a database, if she's caught a second time its recoded, third time, off to reeducation camp. For those that are discreet the government turns a blind eye. I , and my sons have been approached several times while sitting in outdoor restaurants, with my wife sitting with us. We actually had some interesting and humorous conversations. Never had the same happen in the DR.

 

[PICHARDO]

Can anyone guess who this is?

M?ximo G?mez у B?ez monument at Havana, Cuba.

A Dominican born Cuban General that commanded Cuban troops during the war of independence in Cuba.

 

[bob saunders]

The DR runs state funded UASD with a far more open registry than that in Cuba. The scholarships you posted above are not as easy to enjoy as you think! Try and live with what they offer you while studying in Cuba without help from home and soon you have another poor person entering the crowd in Cuba. The scholarships are not as inclusive or covering as you think! Again you have not idea of the propaganda machine in Cuba.

If you really think Cuba is so great and does so much for the people, why don't you try living there for a year and then come back to post fact based opinions on the matter? In Cuba you can't spot garbage b/c they can't afford to throw away sh*t! Everything gets a second, third and post mortem use.

That's not out of education but survival instincts...

And that free university in Cuba comes with a binder - you have to do Military service. The last time we did a tour of Santiago de Cuba the guide spent her military time as a nurse in Ethiopia and no she didn't have a choice in where she was going to serve.

 

[AnnaC]

M?ximo G?mez у B?ez monument at Havana, Cuba.

A Dominican born Cuban General that commanded Cuban troops during the war of independence in Cuba.

Correct! Your prize will go out in the morning mail

 

[Sholly24]

Prostitution, in all its forms, is alive and well in Cuba. Don't kid yourself about any sector of that or any other society that has successfully curbed the human desire to buy and sell sex.

You can't stop it, you can only hope to contain it.

Castro can do whatever he wants-with the advent of the internet, all bets are off on Cuba being free of international whoremongers........

There is an amount of prostitution in cuba which is understandable because of the economic situation but you cannot compare it with what obtains in the DR.

I personally do not think that Castro is so much worried about prostitution than he is about the image of young girls going about with tourists that look old enough to be their father or their grandpa. In cuba, it is not uncommon to see young male tourists walk around with cubans girls and the police generally can overlook that scenario but a cuban girl walking around with a male tourist that looks old enough to be her father or grandpa is definitely a no-no in cuba. She is risking going to jail.

Getting back to topic, the initial comments made by the OP is definitely right on the money. Cuba may have a lot of run down buildings but generally cuban cities are relatively neat and cubans generally seem have a culture of tidiness and neatness. Also they seem to have resolved much of their electricity problems and blackouts are no longer the norm as in previous years eventhough the electricity is highly subsidized to cubans by the government.

Sholly

 

[AnnaC]

To be fair

Getting back to topic, the initial comments made by the OP is definitely right on the money. Cuba may have a lot of run down buildings but generally cuban cities are relatively neat and cubans generally seem have a culture of tidiness and neatness.

Sholly

I must add, that doesn't mean that Dominicans are not clean people but Cuba doesn't seem to have the garbage problems that the DR has.

Oh right I forgot, they have no garbage because they have nothing to throw away! :cheeky:

 

[bob saunders]

Note the Garbage in the water- There was areas much worse

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28730583@N02/2751966090/" title="Baraco Cuba 2005 by rsaunders2008, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2751966090_0aef1f2d20_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Baraco Cuba 2005" /></a>

 

[bob saunders]

Guess where

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28730583@N02/2751906598/" title="Bobs 071 by rsaunders2008, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3209/2751906598_c44e8a4489_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Bobs 071" /></a>

 

[AnnaC]

The Dominican in the Bling must have thrown it there, :laugh:


Just kidding!!!!

 

[Sholly24]

Even the picture supports the OP's assertion

Looking at an isolated picture IMHO does not really say anything here. Somebody can as well post a picture of refuse somewhere in the DR and a neat place in cuba to compare. No one said that the whole of cuba was sparkling clean but having visited both countries (DR and Cuba) , there is no denying the fact that I agree entirely with the OP's assertions. Cuba is far much cleaner than the DR and It does not have much to do with the fact that they do not have much to throw away. They are cleaner because of the impact from being an organized and orderly society.

If you look closely at the picture and at the pavement all the way in front of the house, you will not see a drop of refuse. Also if you look to the left of the shoulder of the man standing, you can see a glimpse of the street. No refuse at all. Even if you look across the street at the house on the other side of the road, you can see that the floor in front of the doors. Very clean. That is cuba for you.

That water may as well have ocurred from the effect of the rain or some other thing. No one really can say based on the picture.

Sholly

 

[bob saunders]

Looking at an isolated picture IMHO does not really say anything here. Somebody can as well post a picture of refuse somewhere in the DR and a neat place in cuba to compare. No one said that the whole of cuba was sparkling clean but having visited both countries (DR and Cuba) , there is no denying the fact that I agree entirely with the OP's assertions. Cuba is far much cleaner than the DR and It does not have much to do with the fact that they do not have much to throw away. They are cleaner because of the impact from being an organized and orderly society.

If you look closely at the picture and at the pavement all the way in front of the house, you will not see a drop of refuse. Also if you look to the left of the shoulder of the man standing, you can see a glimpse of the street. No refuse at all. Even if you look across the street at the house on the other side of the road, you can see that the floor in front of the doors. Very clean. That is cuba for you.

That water may as well have ocurred from the effect of the rain or some other thing. No one really can say based on the picture.

Sholly

You see what you want to see.
I''m not disagreeing with you that Cuba is cleaner than the DR, but most of Jarabacoa is very clean, so is Bani, and quite a few other places in the DR. Dominican houses for the most part are very clean. In the area where that picture was taken if it wasn't for the lack of paint on houses and less cars you could be in a part of the DR. The picture was typical for the amount of Garbage on the streets, unless you think I'm lying. Even though my brother was getting married he could not stay in his wife's house, he had to stay in a Casa Particular or a resort. Once he was married he was allowed to stay in her house. My brother has gone to Cuba on medical missions...etc around 30 times and he can give you a few stores about the corruption in Cuba.

 

[bob saunders]

Typical street in Jarabacoa if you look closely you'll see no garbage

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28730583@N02/2751380137/" title="02 january 2008 008 by rsaunders2008, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/2751380137_a16c289537_b.jpg" width="1024" height="687" alt="02 january 2008 008" /></a>


You also notice the vibrancy of colour that is often missing in Cuba

 

[cobraboy]

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28730583@N02/2751380137/" title="02 january 2008 008 by rsaunders2008, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/2751380137_a16c289537_b.jpg" width="1024" height="687" alt="02 january 2008 008" /></a>


You also notice the vibrancy of colour that is often missing in Cuba

And here's a shocker about Jarabacoa: moto drivers are wearing helmets. I'd estimate at least 1/2 of them, and growing. AMET here had a big meeting last week giving folks a month to secure and wear a helmet, or else (whatever that may be).