I see the info people are posting here. But I know one local guy who has had propane in his SUV for 3 years without a problem. And tons of taxi drivers have it too. If your car "only" lasts for 10 years, is that so bad?
- Thread starter AZB
- Start date
Propane gas conversion review (long post)
Rocky, why would you think that when you know labor here is cheap? I'm sure these techinicans are probably bringing in less than RD15k a month. Most of the cost is in the equipment. As far as cutting wires that control the sensors, as I had to get mine serviced toady, I checked and all of the wires from the flow sensors on the air intake assebly are all connected. The bottom line is the cost savings for the same amount of miles driven is threefold - no matter whether the system is working at 100%. As an engineer, from purely an empirical point of view, it can't be far off from maximum efficiency. For those who can afford it and who have a new car, I would say don't bother. But for those on a limited income and have a used car, I see no reason not to do it.
I'm not saying that folks shouldn't do it.
My post was simply supporting the fact that the European installations are in fact, 4 and 5 times more expensive.
I agree that labour costs are lesser here, but not enough to make that big a difference.
It only takes a few hours to do the job.
My position is that I won't do it to my car, but anyone with a tiny 4 cyl who does a lot of driving, specially in the public transport industry, has to seriously consider doing it.
What we need to find out is how much a complete system can be purchased for; just the parts. This way, people like Rocky and others with more valuable cars can have a real worthwhile option for converting to LPG.
The real fancy complete system doesn't exist in DR, even if it did, no one would know how to install it properly and even if someone took a crack at it, then we don't have the proper knowledge or the equipment to fine tune it. The price of the system is so high that it just doesn't make sense to install it unless you drive a lot on daily basis, this way you can get you money back before you crash your car in an accident with a horse on the main road to cabarete from sosua. so if this perfect system doesn't exist in DR and no one knows how to fit it in to a fancy vehicle and not to mention, no one has the proper equipment to fine tune it, so why even discuss it here in this thread?
The current italian system works so well that no one would even think of buying the expensive perfect system from europe and cough up 160K plus pesos in cost.
I would like to know, people who oppose this system, have they ever driven a nice car with this italian system installed? I don't mean a taxi or a concho. I mean a real private car belonging to a person who knows how to keep a good care of his car and mechanics.
I will be in sosua this weekend and I would like to invite anyone who is willing to see my car and installation inside, not to mention, take a ride with me to test drive the system for themselves.
AZB
The current italian system works so well that no one would even think of buying the expensive perfect system from europe and cough up 160K plus pesos in cost.
I would like to know, people who oppose this system, have they ever driven a nice car with this italian system installed? I don't mean a taxi or a concho. I mean a real private car belonging to a person who knows how to keep a good care of his car and mechanics.
I will be in sosua this weekend and I would like to invite anyone who is willing to see my car and installation inside, not to mention, take a ride with me to test drive the system for themselves.
AZB
I love it AZB! 
In my language ... talk is cheap but money buys the whisky. ... AZB has the system installed, all the rest of you don't - and all the fancy tech talk in the world won't change that.
(Have no idea whose vehicle is going to last the longest haha!)
In my language ... talk is cheap but money buys the whisky. ... AZB has the system installed, all the rest of you don't - and all the fancy tech talk in the world won't change that. (Have no idea whose vehicle is going to last the longest haha!)
Contrary to what some may think, there are plenty of people in DR who would be totally capable of installing one of these "fancy" systems with a few days of training. The complicated part of the system is the design, not the installation. Other than a dyno, the other equipment required is not that expensive or difficult to obtain. As a matter of fact, I personally own it all (sans the dyno, of course), and tuning cars and making them go fast is only a hobby to me.
You're right! Those people would rather take the extra $160k and buy a diesel. Heck, one of my uncles owns 2 LPG stations in La Vega, and he and his sons drive diesel SUVs. Maybe that means just a little something!
I may be one of those who keeps coming across as being totally opposed to the system, but I'm really not. I've driven what would be considered newer, nice, well-kept vehicles with the "Italian" system, and the difference was almost unnoticeable at first. Seeing the vehicles after some time (1 to 2 years) of regular use, it was obvious that they had degraded faster than normal.
Now, if I owned an older (more than 10 years) vehicle and I knew that I could repair it economically, I would do the conversion as it is available now because it makes all the economic sense in the world. If on the other, I owned a newer vehicle, I would not do the conversion as it is available now.
AZB,
Why would a "Jevito" spend US$10,000 on engine parts for their CRV?
Why would someone drive around Santo Domingo in an Enzo Ferrari?
Why would someone import and spend US$450,000 brining in a Rolls Royce Phantom?
Let's be real, they are all cars right? Just for going from A to B etc.
Just because your happy with your "concho approved" LPG kit, don't discount the fact that other people want to and will pay for something better. Just like the Jevito, the Enzo driver or the Rolls enthusiast etc etc etc. Don't assume because you live in Santiago that a "real" LPG conversion is not available in Santo Domingo.
I found out today that the dyno at BP Autocentro is pretty good and the guys know what they are doing. They have the ECU emulators, the ROM programmers, all the toys. They are chipping and tuning all sorts of cars and have been doing some really good numbers with the "rice burner" crowd.
Have you been to Santo Domingo Motors lately? Their service shop is excellent and their customer service first class. They have the tools and toys, just as good as any shop I have ever looked at. You can even track your cars progress online
The only thing that isn't changing, is "your" scratched record
See you on Saturday, kiss!
Why would a "Jevito" spend US$10,000 on engine parts for their CRV?
Why would someone drive around Santo Domingo in an Enzo Ferrari?
Why would someone import and spend US$450,000 brining in a Rolls Royce Phantom?
Let's be real, they are all cars right? Just for going from A to B etc.
Just because your happy with your "concho approved" LPG kit, don't discount the fact that other people want to and will pay for something better. Just like the Jevito, the Enzo driver or the Rolls enthusiast etc etc etc. Don't assume because you live in Santiago that a "real" LPG conversion is not available in Santo Domingo.
I found out today that the dyno at BP Autocentro is pretty good and the guys know what they are doing. They have the ECU emulators, the ROM programmers, all the toys. They are chipping and tuning all sorts of cars and have been doing some really good numbers with the "rice burner" crowd.
Have you been to Santo Domingo Motors lately? Their service shop is excellent and their customer service first class. They have the tools and toys, just as good as any shop I have ever looked at. You can even track your cars progress online
The only thing that isn't changing, is "your" scratched record
See you on Saturday, kiss!
Hipocrito, Robert, etc....This will probably sound ignorant, but I was under the impression that only cars with carburateurs could be tuned, that cars with fuel injections don't get tuned.
Is that impression incorrect?
Is that impression incorrect?
Those are my exact thoughts, only I lacked the ability to verbalize them so perfectly.Contrary to what some may think, there are plenty of people in DR who would be totally capable of installing one of these "fancy" systems with a few days of training. The complicated part of the system is the design, not the installation. Other than a dyno, the other equipment required is not that expensive or difficult to obtain. As a matter of fact, I personally own it all (sans the dyno, of course), and tuning cars and making them go fast is only a hobby to me.
You're right! Those people would rather take the extra $160k and buy a diesel. Heck, one of my uncles owns 2 LPG stations in La Vega, and he and his sons drive diesel SUVs. Maybe that means just a little something!
I may be one of those who keeps coming across as being totally opposed to the system, but I'm really not. I've driven what would be considered newer, nice, well-kept vehicles with the "Italian" system, and the difference was almost unnoticeable at first. Seeing the vehicles after some time (1 to 2 years) of regular use, it was obvious that they had degraded faster than normal.
Now, if I owned an older (more than 10 years) vehicle and I knew that I could repair it economically, I would do the conversion as it is available now because it makes all the economic sense in the world. If on the other, I owned a newer vehicle, I would not do the conversion as it is available now.
That describes my point to view, to a "T".
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That's more or less accurate, Adrian.
The gasoline injector models we have nowadays are somewhat "self tuning" by way of the onboard computers that calculate a multitude of variables, to optimize performance, but all that is based on the premise that the vehicle is using gasoline.
Changing to LPG must require all sorts of conpensations to deal with different volatility, viscosity, fuel to air ratios, ideal fuel temperatures, etc.
If I can find the right kit and shop to install it, yes I would seriously consider it.
Tuning comes into three categories with everyday fuel injection cars.
1) Car owner takes the car to the dealer. Dealer checks all the sensors are functioning and the emissions, timing, idling, shifting etc all adhere to factory specs that are set by the factory engine map in the ECU.
2) Car owner wants a little more performance from the factory specs, so will change the engine map. This is usually a simple chip replacement in the existing ECU.
3) Car owner that wants lots more performance, so will change a few parts, new ECU and will take the car to a dyno (rolling road) and have the ECU reprogrammed for a better engine map to give the best bhp/torque etc.
When you fit a LPG kit, the car needs tuning. Ideally this should be done with a new engine map and dyno session to dial in the best settings.
The better LPG kits come with a ECU that you can plug into a laptop and program the ECU to get a new engine map. Usually this can be done with a road test rather than a dyno session.
If you look around the web, you will find plenty of examples of LPG conversions in the USA and Europe. They are of a much better quality level than you will currently find in the DR.
e.g. Due to the congestion charge in London, LPG conversions are starting to be come popular in the UK. The conversions are of a very high quality, no performance is lost and they are done the right way.
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My thoughts exactly.I may be one of those who keeps coming across as being totally opposed to the system, but I'm really not. I've driven what would be considered newer, nice, well-kept vehicles with the "Italian" system, and the difference was almost unnoticeable at first. Seeing the vehicles after some time (1 to 2 years) of regular use, it was obvious that they had degraded faster than normal.
Now, if I owned an older (more than 10 years) vehicle and I knew that I could repair it economically, I would do the conversion as it is available now because it makes all the economic sense in the world. If on the other, I owned a newer vehicle, I would not do the conversion as it is available now.
I'm considering a propane conversion of a large American van with a V-8 I'm bringing into the country for commercial purposes. I'm purchasing a 7 y.o. old SUV that I ~may~ consider. I'll also be purchasing a small "beater" pickup that would definitely be a candidate.
I would only put a proper conversoin in the van, period. No compromise there.
I'd maybe do the cheaper conversion in the SUV. It's a fine vehicle with a V-6, but I'd want the conversion to be a good one. I am concerned about sacrificing a spare tire for a tank, however. I guess I can always put the spare in the trunk area.
Thye beater camioneta? Heck, I'd prolly run it on methane if it's cheaper...:cheeky:
Another reason to convert -environmentally friendly
Engines running on propane are much more environment friendly because their emissions do not contain sulphur, benzene, lead, and many fragrant hydrocarbons typical found in unleaded gasoline. These harmful substances are not present in liquid gas. Besides, in comparison with other kinds of fuel, the exhaust fumes contain:
10 to 15% less carbon dioxide
20% less carbon monoxide
50-60% less hydrocarbons and nitric oxide
Most people I know of here in Canada that have done the conversion profess the opposite of what is being said here; that propane actually extends the life of the engine. I've been running regular in my 93 MB 400 for about a year. Mercedes mechanic says other that making the engine a little dirtier and loss of about 2% power it will not hurt the engine. At 270,000 miles and running like a top I'm not too worried.
Engines running on propane are much more environment friendly because their emissions do not contain sulphur, benzene, lead, and many fragrant hydrocarbons typical found in unleaded gasoline. These harmful substances are not present in liquid gas. Besides, in comparison with other kinds of fuel, the exhaust fumes contain:
10 to 15% less carbon dioxide
20% less carbon monoxide
50-60% less hydrocarbons and nitric oxide
Most people I know of here in Canada that have done the conversion profess the opposite of what is being said here; that propane actually extends the life of the engine. I've been running regular in my 93 MB 400 for about a year. Mercedes mechanic says other that making the engine a little dirtier and loss of about 2% power it will not hurt the engine. At 270,000 miles and running like a top I'm not too worried.
More important info to consider
Studies over propane usage and its influence on the engine life have been conducted for many years. They have shown that propane does not shorten the engine life; on the contrary, it is established that engines running on propane last longer. It is caused by chemical components of this fuel, which is seen during combustion (less pollution). propane does not lower oil density; on the contrary, it increases its viscosity, which reduces wear of the engine (pistons, rings, cylinder head?s walls, etc.) Generally, propane burns more completely and does not cause carbon deposit. However, there is a small disadvantage in case of 12- 20 year old cars. Namely, the carbon deposit makes kind of a ?sealing crust? from the inner side of the older engine and when it runs on propane this ?crust? melts and may make a small oil leak bigger. Obviously, a proper installation control and consequences of the ?acetylene blowpipe? rule is a separate issue. So the installation must be appropriately selected depending on the car type. Its appropriate selection and later operating does not have any negative effects on the engine life.
Studies over propane usage and its influence on the engine life have been conducted for many years. They have shown that propane does not shorten the engine life; on the contrary, it is established that engines running on propane last longer. It is caused by chemical components of this fuel, which is seen during combustion (less pollution). propane does not lower oil density; on the contrary, it increases its viscosity, which reduces wear of the engine (pistons, rings, cylinder head?s walls, etc.) Generally, propane burns more completely and does not cause carbon deposit. However, there is a small disadvantage in case of 12- 20 year old cars. Namely, the carbon deposit makes kind of a ?sealing crust? from the inner side of the older engine and when it runs on propane this ?crust? melts and may make a small oil leak bigger. Obviously, a proper installation control and consequences of the ?acetylene blowpipe? rule is a separate issue. So the installation must be appropriately selected depending on the car type. Its appropriate selection and later operating does not have any negative effects on the engine life.
I got my diesel generator converted 4 years ago to be made automatic turning on and off. The mechanic, etc told me it was a bad idea and would damage the engine and might only last 1 year. I had no choice so I told him to do it anyway. It still runs fine 4 years later.