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Report from Santo Domingo
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Ok people, I'm guilty of using myself as representative for a sector of the population.
I should have said that I DON'T THROW GARBAGE out the window, which even if I'm the only well off folk that don't throw garbage out the window, that would be more than enough to make a generalization incorrect.
Case closed on that issue. What's next....
I should have said that I DON'T THROW GARBAGE out the window, which even if I'm the only well off folk that don't throw garbage out the window, that would be more than enough to make a generalization incorrect.
Case closed on that issue. What's next....
NalOwhs,
You're correct on the courtesy issue, but there is also the generosity. What blows a lot of foreigners minds is how generous poor people here are, with the little they have. This is not something which foreigners who come from a "rat race" society are used to. A lot of Western ideology is about dog eat dog, climb over someone who is down if it enables you to get to the top. Sadly, this seems to be taking hold among Dominicans who work in tourist areas (our fault, us meaning foreigners) but it certainly is not the norm inland or in the countryside. But I don't want to hijack the thread.......you still there, Voyager?
You're correct on the courtesy issue, but there is also the generosity. What blows a lot of foreigners minds is how generous poor people here are, with the little they have. This is not something which foreigners who come from a "rat race" society are used to. A lot of Western ideology is about dog eat dog, climb over someone who is down if it enables you to get to the top. Sadly, this seems to be taking hold among Dominicans who work in tourist areas (our fault, us meaning foreigners) but it certainly is not the norm inland or in the countryside. But I don't want to hijack the thread.......you still there, Voyager?
Lambada said:
Problem is, Lambada, poor Dominicans are the only Dominicans left. Whoever has money in this country is a generic South American, devoid of any dignity, morals , sense of country or state.
There is this general silence amongst foreigners living here, due the the hope that we are still living in a "country" with a "state".
How in the world do you make money in this country? Don't you guys watch TV? Let me cite yesterday's "Hoy Mismo": Jesus Vazquez, Chair of the Senate, hijacked somebody else's radio station through political influence, and then called the person up at his office and proposed a 70/30 split on what was not his in the first place (allegedly, of course...)!
Corruption is not a meaningful word when nobody is honest anymore.
This is not a country anymore, this is a territory of Colombia...are you not capable of doing Google searches? Also please go to rsf.org and check out Dominican Republic.
We are at Cuba's pre-Castro levels, the country is a playground of international gansgters, the system has been bought out.
Youth gangs have appeared everywhere, entire sectors of the population have been lost.
We foreigners living here are the only blind ones, the rest of the world knows what this "country" is about...
What's the meaning of "class" under these circumstances?
I would contest that. Although there are more than a few foreign Latin Americans roaming the circles of high society here, its still safe to say that the moneyed class is still made up of Dominicans primarily.
However, all of that devoid of dignity, morals, and selse of country that you mention is what Globalization is all about. Remember, the world is being pushed to forget the rule of law and the rule of government and oblige by what global corporations and papa money has to say. That is the trend and its only natural to expect such attitude among the wealthiest folks in the DR, after all, these folks are the most connected and concerned to what happens in the international arena of things.
I'm a bit confused about this statement, can you please clear up your meaning. Thank you.
Well, that maybe true, but its also true that the only time corruption was meaningful was during a time considered to be "horrible" by many, ie. the Trujillo era. Although, there was corruption, most of the Dominican population were still humble down to earth people. Now, the urbanites are secularist creatures and the countryside is filled with traditionalist that feel the pressure of modern activities encroaching into their peaceful setting. There is always a price that must be paid for a certain gain.
Keep in mind that much of the illegal drugs that pass through the country comes in through the border with Haiti and then goes off to the demanding first world. We are not a territory of Colombia and if we are, does that mean that the world is a territory of Colombia? After all, most countries of the world have a heavy demand for the different types of drugs that emits from that otherwise beautiful Latin American country.
We are not at Cuba's pre-Castro levels, we are Cuba under Capitalism and Cuba is the DR under Communism and Puerto Rico is the DR under colonialism. All three countries are practically the same thing, just different ideologies in economics and politics. Of the three, which one you like the most?
Entire sectors of the population have NOT been lost, but they are confused. This country needs someone that the masses can see as almost bigger than anybody else for them to follow. Once that someone gets the love of the people, then things will turn around for good. Also, all that rap music and "gangster" culture and Afro-American culture infiltrating our barrios is not helping with the situation. Try telling a kid that he should do good, when from morning till night he see's booty, booty, booty and firearms and evil in a single rap or hip hop video or song. The bible says that "violence is the entertainment of the fools", well modern day Capitalism has allowed for violence to become entertained. The question now is, who initiated and imposed this Capitalistic system on us? Also, if we started to deviate ourselves from proper capitalism, why didn't the intruders set us back on track?
The meaning of "class" would be the same. The only real question is why are these circumstances so prevalent today and how can it be changed?
I would conclude that these attitudes will not change as long that satelite TV keeps their inmoral attitudes towards life. On one channel is Jerry Springer, on the next is eminem, on the next is Antonio Banderas blowing off some guys head with a gun, and on the other are some of these Dominicanyorks telling us that their way of seeing the world is better.
How can the just people make an effect against such a strong current like that?
And don't forget, if we try to go against globalization, the powerful countries of this world will shun us out and into marginalisation and leads us straight into the path of a failed state.
As sad as it seems, this is the world we live in today.
Nal0whs said:
Well I meant to say that to a foreigner, it is not clear whether a place can be still called a country and be said to have a state when you see the rules of the game subverted in such a shameless way.
Now let's say that it's been Hipolito's fault, and also the globalization's fault that the country is in such bad shape today.
But what are the hopes of integrating, for a foreigner, in such a system? For US, foreigners, this is not a Republica at all. The country works, and has worked in the past, only by nepotism, knowing the right people, belonging to a certain family and so on.
But we have been raised to believe in equality, in freedom, in justice for all. FOR US, it will never be a place where we can see our aspirations fulfilled, because we will never bend to the corruption, the illegalities, the ugliness of doing business here, any business.
How though of a skin I want to develop? None...at work I see my white colleagues saying to black fellows "moreno, comportate!". I see police hitting people just because they are the police, I see fellow workers of mine with children without medical insurance, and I can do absolutely nothing...I can't even get residency, I have to buy a half-legal visa from a lawyer [see my previous posts].
I can probably help more from my home country, by writing articles about all this, and maybe force these horrible politicians (cynical Leonel included) to be at least a little less brutal and unfair to their own fellow citizens.
There is a song that says "I believe I can fly", but in Dominican Spanish it says "I believe I will never fly, or maybe one day some caudillo will let me, for 5 minutes".
anonymous1960,
How long have you been here? You see, I think we do "bend", or I would call it "adjust" to the situation we find ourselves in (by "we" I mean us foreigners). I think we also use our contacts to make life easier. I have certainly used money to "speed up" a process which would otherwise have been interminable. This doesn't stop me being critical of certain facets of life here. Nor does it stop me being aware that I am privileged & that that brings responsibilities. But I'm not going to turn around to Dominicans & say "I know better than you" because here in the DR I don't. It is their country, they will change the bad parts when they choose to. I can encourage, motivate etc etc but I can't come in like a colonialist imperialist & insist I am right.
I am really happy here, despite the problems & issues. Sadly, it sounds like you are really unhappy.
How long have you been here? You see, I think we do "bend", or I would call it "adjust" to the situation we find ourselves in (by "we" I mean us foreigners). I think we also use our contacts to make life easier. I have certainly used money to "speed up" a process which would otherwise have been interminable. This doesn't stop me being critical of certain facets of life here. Nor does it stop me being aware that I am privileged & that that brings responsibilities. But I'm not going to turn around to Dominicans & say "I know better than you" because here in the DR I don't. It is their country, they will change the bad parts when they choose to. I can encourage, motivate etc etc but I can't come in like a colonialist imperialist & insist I am right.
I am really happy here, despite the problems & issues. Sadly, it sounds like you are really unhappy.
Lambada said:
Just a bad day, sometimes I like to provoke, I was hoping a Dominican would get mad and flame me, start the co?os and the diablos...
It's hard to be happy in the DR. without limiting your vision or social consciousness. It's similar to living in a slum in the US, the difference being near complete hopelessness in the DR as opposed to unlimited opportunity in the US. Then again, real happiness comes from within. There is certaily unlimited opportunity to "do good" or improve life in local terms in the DR. On a governmental level, it's hard to be an optimist. - D
anonymous1960 said:
Well, you did attract a Dominican, me. But I'm not mad, that's just your opinion of things. I just tried to figure out if your opinion was influence by a short term bad feeling or if its something else.
That's all.
No Co?os or anything from my part!
Danny W said:
No its not! I think the chances of being happy in the DR is just as high as they are anywhere else! In fact, I think that being happy has more to do with one's perception and value of one's self rather than anything else.
The people that are unhappy in the DR are people that worry too much about issues and problems that they really can't do anything about or can only affect such issue in such a minute way that everything appears to be indifferent.
Those same people are unhappy in other places of the world, why? Because all societies have some sort of problems. Not the same problems, but problems non the less.
Worrying about things you can't change is really silly in my opinion. If you have a plan of going about to change something in society, then go ahead and do it. Stop worrying because doing so won't change a thing, except your self esteem.
In the end, its our ownselves who put ourselves down at times. Everyday the problems in the DR continue to be the same.NO electricity, no good government, no this no that, nepotism, blah blah blah. So, why do people feel so happy one day and so sad the next? Day after day the same problems persist?!
Well, it has to do with worrying. Somedays people worry about things they can't control and other days people take a break from worrying about things they can't control. The thing is that most Dominicans don't worry too much about things they can't control simply because they can't control. Thus, its better to listen to some Merengue, work hard for now, and dream of what society could have been.
Others (mostly foreigners) continue to worry about things they can't change and they come here (DR1) to create debates that would only go in circles and in the end, everything in society stays the same and the foreigner still worries.
So, what am I saying?
Stop worrying if you can't or are not willing to create change. Worry about things you can change, like keeping your lot clean! You might not like all the garbage, but at least you can help clean the 1/4 of an acre or whatever that you own of this paradise.
Maybe you think most Dominicans are theives, but at least your kids (if they are half Dominicans) will be different. Etc.
Stop worrying about things you have no control over, it will only hurt yourself and your self esteem.
I remember when I went to NYC, lots of people having a bad day because of the traffic. I just poped a CD in my rental car and listened to merengue, smiled, sang, and was pretty much happy. Others were bad mouthing each other and really having a hard time. So why was I so happy and others so mad while we were in the same situation (going below 1 mph in a highway with top speed of 55 mph), why the difference in attitude?
Because I did not worry about things I can't change (the traffic jam), instead I focus my attention to something I could change (the lonely feeling in a traffic jam and boredom). In the end I had a wonderful time and the other folks were stressed out.
That is the difference between a foreigner and a Dominican and that is why foreigners seem to be more aware of the problems and constantly give posible solution ideas, but what good are they when they can't be changed!
Hopefully I have enlighten some of you to be more like Dominicans in this aspect. Your life would be so much better at the personal level, trust me.
Paul Thate said:
Paul you have confused a rich chopo for a rich educated domincian. The problem with you folks who live in touristy towns is that you folks don't live in DR. You folks live in your own little cocoon were you only deal with poor labor class domincians and once in while you run into someone who drives a SUV so you automatically think he is the model of rich educated dominicans. The rich classy domincians are not seen driving around in their fancy cars in sosua or puerto plata. What you do see is dom-yorks or newly rich chopos. No decent class dominican would be found dead in your filthy ugly hooker infested town called sosua or cabarete. Many do go to cabarete but they never mix with foreigners. the educated rich dominicans go to punta cana, bavaro, la romana and other private locations where you big shots don't feel comfortable.
Now about your comment: Yes we are real impressed with your rich dominicans.
AZB you should know money does not breed class" paul Thate
You are right, have you ever thought what the domincians think about you when they see you foreigners (law obedient, cultured, civilized educated folks) hand in hand with a cheap (cleaning lady type) hooker who looks like someone straight from national geographic magazine (matumbu tribe), worse calling her your girlfriend or even worse having babies with them. You think they think very highly of people who mix in with the domincian trash and then pick on the whole domincian population as some cheap classless crooks who only know how to throw garbage and steal from the rest? You see, we all judge people from our own unique experiences. So the dominicans who come into contact with you form your reality of your sourroundings but you see it goes both ways.
AZB
dominicangirl said:
there have always been hungry people in the DR, and yet the DR is home to some of the most happiest people in the world.
I'm not saying they don't burst in anger at times and protest, because they do. But after the protest are over, these hungry folks gather around the Colmado and listen to merengue or bachata and play some dominoes and make jokes and for that moment, being hungry doesn't impact their happiness.
That is what I am talking about.
I mean, you can use Haitians and Dominicans to compare.
Go to any Dominican town and you will see both on the streets, however the hungry Dominican would seem to not mind for the most part his hunger. From time to time he will burst in anger, but over all he's pretty calm and content with his neighborhood buddies.
The Haitian at the lowest stratum of society however remains a bit bitter. They might give a timid or false smile, but you can see it in their eyes, they are not content with their life or with themselves.
I am talking about Haitians and Dominicans in identical economic positions, not in different positions. Just using those two as evident examples of what I am saying, but you can compare Dominicans to anybody else.
I must say, the effect of globalization is having an effect on the attitudes of poor dominicans. They are now more restless about their problems and are taking it to the streets more often, but still overall they are happy. If you ask a Dominican if he/she is happy about the situation of the country, they might say no. If you just ask them if they are happy, they will say yes, unless a family member died or something.
AZB said:
I must say that AZB has impressed me beyond belief!
I never thought that foreigners were capable of understanding that the real Dominican Elite are not those classless chopos! But, now I realize that foreigners are capable of understanding such thing, its just that they reach to conclusions based on the false image they see with their eyes when they visit here.
Congratulations AZB, you truly know what the Dominican people are about, from the elite to the masses.
AZB said:
AZB,
Dominican trash? What is Dominican trash? To me, it's the people on the SUVS, no exceptions made.
Cleaning-lady-type? What's wrong with cleaning ladies? Are they "inferior"? Have you never cleaned anything?
Rich classy Dominicans? How are we supposed to make a difference? By the garbage they throw from the yipeta? Champagne bottle or Presidente bottle?
Chopos? See point above.
Private locations? So the rest of the country can go to hell, with rockash and the rest, as long as the rich classy Dominicans have their private locations?
Matumbu tribe? What's wrong with the Matumbu tribe? Since you mentioned it, are you white? If so, do you know that in the US some ignorant people would classify you as "latino" and cite the Matumbu tribe as well?
Plus it sounds you don't mix with foreigners either, otherwise you would be a cleaning lady-type, which is obviously a shame. So what are you doing on the board? I don't want to mix with you in the first place, being a foreigner that mixes with the "fango".
Regards
I don't want to intrude into your little debate here with AZB, but what the heck!
If you blame the rich for being rich, then you need to go somewhere else to do that. The rich are rich because of their efforts, the poor are poor because of their lack there of. Oh, that there are no means for a poor to become rich? False. Some have done the transition, that proves that it can be done if they truly want to.
So, why do you unite all SUVs drivers with the Chopos?
The rich Americans have Palm Beach and Beverly Hills, the rich Mexicans have their Polanco neighborhood in Mexico City, the rich Europeans hve their Monaco, and the rich Dominicans have their Casa de Campo and the up and coming Cap Cana.
I really don't see your point in your question here.
AZB is American I believe, so he is very much aware of such classification from his own country as you put it.
I guess you mix with drug dealers and serial killers. You have no preferences of people whom you like to associate yourself. If so, why are you criticising AZB for his choices! People attract like minded people. If the people you attract are trash, that is saying something about you and vice versa.
Dominican trash are those hookers and such. You know, the one's that sell their dignity for a few dollars. It doesn't matter how tight one's personal economic situation is, a person with real integrity will never sell her or himself in such a low life fashion.
If you blame the rich for being rich, then you need to go somewhere else to do that. The rich are rich because of their efforts, the poor are poor because of their lack there of. Oh, that there are no means for a poor to become rich? False. Some have done the transition, that proves that it can be done if they truly want to.
So, why do you unite all SUVs drivers with the Chopos?
The cleaning-lady-type are simply that, cleaning ladies. I mean, there is not much wrong with that, but if you had to choose between a cleaning lady and a profesional woman with all other things constant, the profesional would probably be the one to pick. Picking the cleaning lady is for those who like power and if they are of "higher" positions, they will pick the cleaning lady to control her because she is the cleaning lady, unlike to the accountant lady or the doctor lady.
If you have never seen one, how can you judge one! Its obvious you have not seen or have spoken to a real elite. If so, that explains why you have such a skewed idea of what a rich classy Dominican is like.
Um, what? Every rich group in the world live in exclusive places. Why would rich Dominicans be any different?
The rich Americans have Palm Beach and Beverly Hills, the rich Mexicans have their Polanco neighborhood in Mexico City, the rich Europeans hve their Monaco, and the rich Dominicans have their Casa de Campo and the up and coming Cap Cana.
I really don't see your point in your question here.
Lets see, they are dirty, no class, very very very down to earth, live in mud huts. Now, their is nothing wrong with that as long that they themselves accept that lifestyle, but I am not going to try living like the Matumbu tribe and I can guess that neither do you.
AZB is American I believe, so he is very much aware of such classification from his own country as you put it.
I guess you mix with drug dealers and serial killers. You have no preferences of people whom you like to associate yourself. If so, why are you criticising AZB for his choices! People attract like minded people. If the people you attract are trash, that is saying something about you and vice versa.
Nal0whs - What I said was that it's hard to be happy without limiting your vision or social consciousness. I agree with you, you can make your own private world a beautiful place, and it's a no-win situation obsessing about things you can't change. But you can't spend your whole life with your windows rolled up, blasting merengue. Unfortunately, the DR has an over-abundance of tragedy, and part of the reason might possibly be the "what, me worry?" philosophy. It's a charming state of mind, but illiteracy, mothers with 13 hungry, hopeless children and the like are things that at some point need to be addressed if the country is to prosper. I can be happy there, but at the same time, I'm aware that I'm tuning out much that is right at my doorstep.- D
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