Rule of Law or Rule of the person-which is more important?

leekiv

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I dont see where this is DR related?

Sorry all but I thought this was all suppose to pertain to the DR and I don't see it? Not trying to start a "war" but.........

Robert
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Some of you need to look further than the end of your noses

Let me explain just one more time....


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Chip

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Mommc

With all due respect, this example, just like the examples intersex in the general population, are aberrations by definition. Furthermore, by far the the majority of intersex cases the individuals are infertile, which again shows they are aberrations(as infertile people cannot pass on their genes). Also, the only intersex group typically being fertile are CAH's, and in both cases of the xx(female) and xy(male) individuals, they still reproduce according to their chromosomes.

Therefore, is still stands that it takes a xx and a xy individual to procreate, notwithstanding birth defects in the genital regions. There should not be any new definitions of what is a man and women based on a few aberrant cases.

Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) | Intersex Society of North America

Ethics in intersex disorders
 

MommC

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Correct Chip but not representative enough....

I would propose that it is impossible to use any medical criteria for defining a 'man' or 'woman'.

There are many kinds of intersex persons, including sex-reversed persons (born that way), who do not fit any definition of male or female,chromosomal or anatomical .

The reality of such persons does not permit a simple chromosomal, gonadal or genital definition of male or female, man or woman.

Aaahhh yes indeed, life on Earth is much more complicated than the simple, common (mis) understanding of male or female so passionately believed-in by some persons posting in this thread.

The scientifically proven fact is that XX and XY chromosomes cannot be used to legally define every human, because not all humans are merely XX or XY.

Some are chromosomally XXY, XO or Mosaic (having various chromosomal patterns[ XX, XY, XXY, XO or something else ] in different tissues throughout their bodies).
Then there are naturally sex-reversed people whose bodies are the opposite of what is expected . Such persons have XX chromosomes with male anatomy, or XY chromosomes with female anatomy (just ask the IOC the problems this is creating for them).

Neither can gonads (ovaries or testes) or other reproductive parts be used to define every person's sex, because some otherwise normal men have a uterus (Persistent Mullerian Duct Syndrome) and some chromosomal 'women' have a functional penis and testes.

There are even completely "sex-reversed" (this is the actual medical term!) people who have normal-looking bodies that are the opposite of their sex chromosomes. Complete-AIS XY 'genetic males' look like normal women and some even have the ability to function sexually just like normal women, and Complete-CAH XX 'genetic females' have normal external male anatomy.

Such naturally sex-reversed people have always been sex-assigned and raised as their anatomical sex, not their so-called chromosomal or genetic sex (which BTW I don't believe in - they should be allowed to 'self determine' which sex they prefer to be when they are old enough to understand their genetic make-up).

There are a normal looking and feeling men and women who have been born without any genitals, not to forget intersex persons who were born with both a functional vagina and a functional phallus.
Some intersex people are so-called true hermaphrodites (a medical label that is being phased-out as offensive), because they have ovotestes or both testicular and ovarian tissue in their mixed-sex gonads.

While most intersex persons are infertile, some can and do biologically parent children or successfully give birth.

In some badly polluted areas (does the DR come to mind and would Salinas fit this description?), the incidence of XY feminized intersex has doubled in the last 25 years.

Estimates for various population groups range from 1 in 2000 to 1 in 100 for persons born with some atypical sex differentiation.

That is a lot of people who will not fit into any one-size-fits-all definition of 'man and woman' or 'male and female'.

Now will the rule of law or the rule of the person (especially those who refuse to acknowledge that the word 'man' signifies ALL humans) be the determining factor in how these people will be 'defined'?

Cases studies are on-line at the National Library of Medicine ( National Library of Medicine - National Institutes of Health ) Entrez PubMed journal search site PubMed Home . This site is easy to use and accesses scientific journal citations,all the way back to the 1960s.

Trusting those who do not have sufficient mental capacity to contribute to this debate, will keep their NALs comments to themselves.......
 
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Chip

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Estimates for various population groups range from 1 in 2000 to 1 in 100 for persons born with some atypical sex differentiation.

Not exactly correct, more like 0.018%. This is still an aberration. Also, I doubt there is a real push from the biological intersex community to have these laws changed - I believe it is really just political opportunism.

How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-...[J Sex Res. 2002] - PubMed Result

Speaking of the DR, I one hope they never change the status quo here with regard to traditional marriage and relationships, as I am 100% sure the Dominican friendliness we are so fond of will disappear along with it. The fact is forcing people to accept customs traditonally held taboo in the hope of somehow minimizing prejudice in the end result have the opposite effect - people, and especially kids become more overtly mean and insenstive while adults become less and less open and friendly to their common man.

Fact is here in the DR, one is assumed to be hetero for the most part unless one proves otherwise. Therefore, it is very easy to make new acquaintances with people of the same sex here. Not so in Western countries, where many hetero people assume one to be a homosexual if they appear to "happy" or "friendly" with strangers - all a$$ backwards imho, but this is a product of trying to force something to the majority of the population that they find unnatural and offensive.

Not only that, it is getting worse and worse back in the States for our kids, especially those with supposed "effeminate" features or mannerisms. The reason is laws can't or won't make children behave when they are not in front of adults. I for one was incessently picked on as a child and young adult and accused of being a homosexual even before I knew what it meant. I was a very small boy of Catholic upbringing where I was taught to be respectful and nice and apparently I was not very masculine. On the contrary, in my almost three years here in the DR and having spent a lot of time with the kids in the barrio, I have yet to here young boys calling eachother derogatory homosexual terms as is so common on the playgrounds in our country. If you think this is a stretch, just research a few of the perpetrators of mass killings at schools that seem to happen every other week in the US, something unheard of in the 50's. Also, I am in no way condoning the persecution of people with homosexual tendencies, I just think in the end there is greater harm than benefit to society by changing long held beliefs.
 

MommC

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I understand what you are saying Chip......

however my point was more to do with how are these
aberrations[unquote] to be defined and treated under the rule of law or the rule of person?

Should we say that they are not members of the human race given the reasoning as put forth in this thread, since they are
aberrations[unquote]?

After all they are not man (male) or woman(female), so referring to them as men or women would indeed be 'sexist' and demeaning/derogatory even if we did not intend it to be.

Then again referring to them as asexual,bisexual,transsexual, or intersexual would in itself be 'sexist' , wouldn't you agree?;)

Of course, it might be misconstrued that we were being 'racist' should we refer to them as being in-human/un-human/non-human since their genetic makeup places them within the realm of the homo sapien species( are you following my reasoning here??).

So which is more important the rule of law (although the law can't/won't/hasn't defined their legal status) or the rule of person (supposing that the reasonable, intelligent individual accepts that they are also reasonable,intelligent individuals).

Which leads me to ask just who will be in charge of appointing the 'politically correct' 'thought police' and will those in charge ever accept that a single word such as man (for example) has and will be used to convey the idea of the entire homo sapien species?

Will those same individuals be able to comprehend that being gender specific has no basis for common usage in our language given that there are no clear cut definitions of gender in the 21st centruy?

We know that the origins of the English language as recorded circa 1100 used the word man to signify both male and female gender of the entire human species and that in the 16th century woma(e)n came in to usage to differentiate the wi man or wif man (being the female of the species) from the individual man (who was the male of the species).

Which leads me to restate a question I've asked a couple of times without receiving an answer - If a woman (signifying the female of the species) is not also a man (signifying the entire human species) then what mammal is she?

Does this also mean that the rule of law does not apply to women since they are not men and the laws by and large were written by men, for men and refer to men?

Or does this supposition take the rule of the person too far?
 

Rocky

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Momm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ya gots to keep in under 10 paragraphs.

Some of us have ADD and can't deal with posts that long.
 

MommC

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Then what are you doing in the debate forum???

Momm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ya gots to keep in under 10 paragraphs.

Some of us have ADD and can't deal with posts that long.

Question not intended to be in any way construed to be inflamatory,derogatory,sexist,racist or any other *ist* that ANY peron,individual,man/woman/aberration might miscomprehend due to the vagarities of the English language;)
 

johne

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actually it's good for

Momm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ya gots to keep in under 10 paragraphs.
Some of us have ADD and can't deal with posts that long.

training the mind (read Azheimer).Tests have shown reading /learning complex subjects and paying close attention to details can ward off...
oh my, I forgot what I was going to say..Ok I got it. Mommac is going to play tennis with me ... or shyte when was that?

I knew there was a benefit Marco of posts 10 paragraphs or more!

JOHN
 

Chip

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1. Should we say that they are not members of the human race given the reasoning as put forth in this thread, since they are aberrations?

2. After all they are not man (male) or woman(female), so referring to them as men or women would indeed be 'sexist' and demeaning/derogatory even if we did not intend it to be.

Then again referring to them as asexual,bisexual,transsexual, or intersexual would in itself be 'sexist' , wouldn't you agree?;)

1. Show me where I ever proposed this, people with physical/mental defects are still human beings.

2. As far as "sexist" remarks, I'm sure by far the majority of the people that fall in this category would prefer to have their condition not known and would prefer to keep conventions as they are. However, I can understand that some would see this as sexist, but I see this more as a product of the oversensitive, victimization mentality that has been a product lately of Western society. This is just an empty substitute for morality imho. If we simply applied the golden rule, "love thy neighbor as thyself" in our everday life and not create laws that want to regulate religious morals into oblivion, we might get back on track. There should be no doubt that Western society is getting colder and colder by the day with no end in sight.
 

bob saunders

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We are losing our humanity

A society without self-sacrifice would be a society without love, justice, mercy, empathy, or compassion. To truly do something for Altruistic reasons has always been rare, but now in the time of the me generation where we are bombarded by consumerism and thanks to the Internet and advanced communication systems we can have the latest disaster or war flashed before our eyes in Technicolor. This has made many things that are incredibly horrid seem like a movie, perhaps it makes it hard to deal with reality. I think the out on the street talking to your neighbours, kind of the whole village raises a child is rare anywhere but is more common in the DR than Western society. Having said that I have some great neighbours here in Canada.
 

MommC

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I didn't say you proposed this Chip.....

I was saying that certain posts in this thread state that one must be either man or woman and there is no one word that encompasses ALL of the human species (wouldn't want to say 'race' as it might unintentionally offend some people).

Although I am sure that the people who are born with any of the aforementioned
aberrations[unquote] would be highly offended by the assumption that they are physically/mentally impaired.

I agree that we as a society have developed a much oversensitive, victimization mentality however not limited to Western society.

One only has to read the first few pages of this thread to see what happens when one person reveals their oversensitivity.:paranoid:

I do think it might be very revealing if 'laws' did regulate religion into oblivion so that only the morals remained. More on this next post for those who can't read more than four paragraphs in a post!
 
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John Evans

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if anyone has seen a small rottewieler puppy in the la mulatta area please let me know by pm...her brother is looking fo her
 

Chip

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Although I am sure that the people who are born with any of the aforementioned aberrations would be highly offended by the assumption that they are physically/mentally impaired.

When you get down to it we are all impared to some degree - I'm not offended by the truth, why should they be? I'm sure most would rather it be a non issue, I'm sure you will find relatively few cases that want to champion the "transex" cause in the open, and I don't hesitate to say they don't need advocates. Like I said victimization is rampant - and a form of self justification.
 
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John Evans

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ive know a few transexuals ...they are usually quite non asuming people ...who are actually fun to be around when you get to know them....the ones i have known have been non judgemental of others