Rural "Middle Class" Life?

[Gregg]

Gregg,

What you are wanting to do is possible but not easy nor cheap. Depending on the area, vehical, house, farm your set up costs could easily exceed 300K US.

From what I have read it almost seems like you havent actually visited here. Until you have been here several times, dont waste the time and effort thinking about living here..

As mentioned early, I have a site up about our life here at www.geocities.com/shadley000 While I am very very happy here, please keep in mind that I dont write about the bad stuff because mom reads the site.

Stephen

that's pretty cynical Stephen. we would rent, we would maintain our capital. i have visited the DR (only twice, granted).

the worst case is a 6 month trip to a beautiful country with good people, the chance to learn Spanish and the best "education" our kids will get in years... seems like you have it backwards, there is not a waste of time and effort in thinking about living in the DR. i have learned a tremendous amount in the last few months and i value that knowledge.

but i have visited your website. that takes alot of courage to do what you are doing. i have worked at farming on a small scale for the last 7 years at there is no way I can affort to build a commercial operation here in Canada. the $$ investment is just to steep. we rent out our acreage right now.

all of our neighbours are dairy farmers (Dutch) and do very well here. the trick was having acquired the quotas when they were worth very little. i have a great deal of respect for farmers and the number of skills you need to make it go.

 

[Criss Colon]

It is MUCH cheaper to live in the "Country Side"!

My sister-in-law rents a cement,two story house,outside Moca for 4,000 pesos a month.
Making a living raising animals is very hard here.
I think Moca,in the hills around the main city, should be a place to check out.
You can rent a house with enough room to "Do Your Thing"! If you are successful,buy the place! CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

 

[Peter6218]

My sister-in-law rents a cement,two story house,outside Moca for 4,000 pesos a month.
Making a living raising animals is very hard here.
I think Moca,in the hills around the main city, should be a place to check out.
You can rent a house with enough room to "Do Your Thing"! If you are successful,buy the place! CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

My God !!!!!! :surprised :surprised :surprised

That converts to $125 Cdn

That's staggering !!!!!!!

Peter

 

[sjh]

that's pretty cynical Stephen. we would rent, we would maintain our capital. i have visited the DR (only twice, granted).

sorry, I didnt mean to sound cynical, just realistic. This is not an easy place to make a living in and it takes much more capital to get started here than most people expect. Additionally, the capital required to purchace farm land could better produce money in a savings account. This is only something you do because you love doing it.

While my story has been 95% successful, remember I am married to a dominican with hundreds of friends and family. I cant imagine trying to do what I did without her help, or not knowing spanish.

You are right, even if you come and fail it might be the best 6 months of your life......

Stephen

 

[Voyager]

This is probably a very stupid question but...

What makes a "simple life" in DR more enjoyable than elsewhere?

I mean, if it was cheap and easy to get the "simple life" so many of us long for, in DR, I'd better understand. But reading the posts on this thread, it requires a lot of hard work and quite some risk-taking.

By comparison, I was vacationing in British Columbia 18 months ago and was totally amazed by the scenery and the friendliness of the people. What about putting in the hard work and risk-taking to live a simple life in BC? In Vancouver Island, I bumped into some immigrants from Finland, who felt they had found paradise! I guess they had never been to DR...

 

[suarezn]

Gregg: I say go ahead and do it. I think you definitely have the right attitude to make something like this work. You can live on 1000 USD/month somewhat "confortable", again depending on what your needs are. Most people in The DR maintain a larger family than you have on a lot less income. Most of the money you will spent will be spent to finance the actual move (do a search for Timex here, to see what I'm talking about). Once you have made your move, then it should not be too bad. I kow a lot of peole have mentioned different cities here, but I will recommend to you La Vega or surrounding areas. This town is supposed to be the cleanest town in The DR and has some very good schools to send your kids to. It's not too far from Santiago either and it's smack in the middle of the country, right by the main highway. Not too big, not too small.
Like Crisco mentioned, make sure to rent before you buy. If at all possible, find a Dominican who you can trust who will negotiate the rent price for you (if they know they are renting to a foreigner the price will tripple). Your kids will probably go through a bit of culture shock, but that's OK. Kids adapt very quickly, and before you know it they will be speaking spanish perfectly.

 

[miguel]

Listen!

This is probably a very stupid question but...

What makes a "simple life" in DR more enjoyable than elsewhere?

I mean, if it was cheap and easy to get the "simple life" so many of us long for, in DR, I'd better understand. But reading the posts on this thread, it requires a lot of hard work and quite some risk-taking.

By comparison, I was vacationing in British Columbia 18 months ago and was totally amazed by the scenery and the friendliness of the people. What about putting in the hard work and risk-taking to live a simple life in BC? In Vancouver Island, I bumped into some immigrants from Finland, who felt they had found paradise! I guess they had never been to DR...

The difference is that in the DR you do not need the huge amount of money that you need in, let's say the US, to start a business. If you really know what you are doing, you can make it with just the right amount. The way of life in the DR is simplier, to some, than here. For example, I paid XX amount for my home in PA and the home that I bought for my mom (GRHS) in SD is as comfortable as the one that I have here but the only difference is that I paid about 10 times more here. I know of people that have gone to the DR and had taken a chance with US $ 15,000 and have made a living out of it, how in the hell they did it?, I don't know. But there are some that have made it and there are some that have not. Now tell me where in Canada or the US can one even start to think about doing business with that amount?. I know that it's a very low amount but my point is that some people have done it. I would never even think to do such a thing but the bottom line is that you do not need 50 million dollars to start a business in the DR.

 

[suarezn]

This is probably a very stupid question but...

What makes a "simple life" in DR more enjoyable than elsewhere?

I mean, if it was cheap and easy to get the "simple life" so many of us long for, in DR, I'd better understand. But reading the posts on this thread, it requires a lot of hard work and quite some risk-taking.

By comparison, I was vacationing in British Columbia 18 months ago and was totally amazed by the scenery and the friendliness of the people. What about putting in the hard work and risk-taking to live a simple life in BC? In Vancouver Island, I bumped into some immigrants from Finland, who felt they had found paradise! I guess they had never been to DR...

To begin with: The weather makes a huge difference. Living a simple life in a cold place, must suck big time. In The DR you don't have to worry about freezing your @ss off, if there's not running water, just go to the nearest river and bathe (no hot water needed), no electricity, no problem (you're not going to die without it), it's just an annoyance not having it.

There's a reason why northen countries are more prosperous than warm climate countries. People in northern climates have to work a lot harder to survive, thus end up becoming a lot more industrious (just my theory).

The Vancouver area is beautiful, but there's no way I would live there permanently unless I had a ton of money. Actually, even then I would not live there. Why put up with the crappy weather, if I don't have to?

 

[Gregg]

sorry, I didnt mean to sound cynical, just realistic. This is not an easy place to make a living in and it takes much more capital to get started here than most people expect. Additionally, the capital required to purchace farm land could better produce money in a savings account. This is only something you do because you love doing it.

While my story has been 95% successful, remember I am married to a dominican with hundreds of friends and family. I cant imagine trying to do what I did without her help, or not knowing spanish.

You are right, even if you come and fail it might be the best 6 months of your life......

Stephen

i can't agree more with you. farming is terribly risky as a business venture. i have learned that firsthand in Canada. the amount of equipment needed and the inability to get labour at any price (seriously!) makes it a no go. you need huge $$s and experience. i have many neighbours here like me that have been farming for "pleasure" or very little profit. you do have to love it. just about to go clean out a large pig stall today after a long winter...you can guess why i'm procrastinating on that one!

just to set the conversation straight:

renting for the first year or so
maintaining most capital and will have "bail out" money
only hobby farming for family/pleasure/food
NO desire/abillity to farm commercially
only an acre or 3 of land (or so), no big properties
will need to find some small income stream after 24 mths or so
we are exploring home schooling and online (if Internet access available)


and thank you everyone for offering such sound advice. i think it is an eye opener for some of the other members with respect to the cost of living outside the urban areas. we're just trying to follow a strategy similar to what we are doing here.

and, here is something that might have all of you jumping on me (maybe deservedly): the more i go through this exercise, the more i think many of you have the questions and viewpoint reversed.

while it is important to educate yourself about a new country, there is only so much advance viewing you can do until you take the plunge. the more important questions centres on how well do you know yourself? how do you handle new cultures? how do you interact with your community now? what are your values? what can you live with and what can you not live without?

 

[Onions&carrots]

Grogg, remember one thing though

Don't make any moves until after the elections. These have been very tumultous times and election periods have been known to be dangerous esp. economically. So wait and see.

 

[Gregg]

Don't make any moves until after the elections. These have been very tumultous times and election periods have been known to be dangerous esp. economically. So wait and see.

good point, thanks.

planning to come to DR in late summer with my wife to scout around for a few weeks. some planning is pending the sale of our farm. it will be going on the market June 1. then back again in late fall with the kids in tow and a much longer stay...probably a 4-6 months. at the end of that i'll either be arranging to have our container shipped down or purchasing return tickets for the entire family back to Canada.

 

[suarezn]

Gregg: Plenty of cheap labor hands for farming in The DR. Making a living out of it, though is a different matter. If you were in The DR you wouldn't have to go clean that pig stall in the cold weather. You could pay someone to go do it for you...That's the big difference.

 

[Gregg]

Gregg: Plenty of cheap labor hands for farming in The DR. Making a living out of it, though is a different matter. If you were in The DR you wouldn't have to go clean that pig stall in the cold weather. You could pay someone to go do it for you...That's the big difference.

yes, we're actually expecting snow tonight, just a sprinkle, but it is cold and damp this week. hauling water to the pigs all winter really sucked, especially through 2 feet of snow. my pigs are all safely wrapped and frozen in the basement now!

i have no intention of trying to farm for a living. i've been on that road for a number of years already. i'd need another ten year's experience and a whole lot more money.

i don't always enjoy the farm work. we burned 20 cords of firewood this winter. that's alot of hoofing. summer weather makes things much easier for us.

 

[sjh]

Gregg,

this is very difficult to understand until you actually try to run things here. Even on a very small farm, it is neither smart nor possible to do the work yourself. It took me several months to figure this out.

Machinery is very expenisive, and a man on salary will work for as little as 3000 pesos a month. While he is fixing fences, weeding the property, feeding the animals, cleaning up after them, you will spend so much of your time doing things you can not hire people to do, like shopping, arrangeing business deals, fixing machines, taking the kids to school, etc.

Now if you are going to keep 3 chickens and a pig, maybe you can get by, but it wont feed you and even then you still have all the rest of the gardening to do.

Stephen

 

[Gregg]

Gregg,

this is very difficult to understand until you actually try to run things here. Even on a very small farm, it is neither smart nor possible to do the work yourself. It took me several months to figure this out.

Machinery is very expenisive, and a man on salary will work for as little as 3000 pesos a month. While he is fixing fences, weeding the property, feeding the animals, cleaning up after them, you will spend so much of your time doing things you can not hire people to do, like shopping, arrangeing business deals, fixing machines, taking the kids to school, etc.

Now if you are going to keep 3 chickens and a pig, maybe you can get by, but it wont feed you and even then you still have all the rest of the gardening to do.

Stephen

i hear you brother! i do most of the chores here now by myself and it is a losing game. sometimes kinda' lonely too. a few extra hands at times would be a real plus, especially tackling those big, lousy jobs. around here they get past that by using alot of expensive toys.

but the farmers can't get any kids to work on the farms even at $10 per hour because they'd all rather work in the city at something easier and less smelly and dirty. only exception is tobacco planting and harvest as that pays quite well.

they are now flying in workers from Mexico and Jamaica and they rotate amongst the farms to do the manual labour. good approach until they decide not to make it over to your place....

again, i am just hobby farming. i think (hope) i can afford to live with or without what i produce. more a way of life than anything else. i can also delay getting any livestock as they seem to soak up the most time and capital (fencing, housing etc...).

it will take me some getting used to dealing with hired labour and i'll have to go slow on that one. i liked your point on your site about hiring someone to use an ox/horse and cart is cheaper than driving your truck over there yourself. i will need to shift my thinking quite a bit.

manual labour here is seen as a odd (or maybe i'm just odd). the conversation with my neighbours would never be about coming over to help do something manual. the discussion would be about who has the right equipment for you to borrow or rent.

would it be accurate to say too that you would lose respect or face with your community if you're out there doing the basest labour? would you be seen as not offering others some employment? i am eccentric at times but understand the need to fit in a bit.

 

[suarezn]

would it be accurate to say too that you would lose respect or face with your community if you're out there doing the basest labour? would you be seen as not offering others some employment? i am eccentric at times but understand the need to fit in a bit.

I would say it's the opposite. See, as a foreigner people will not be expecting you to do anything yourself, but to pay for it. So, I think, that if you get down and do some of the dirty work yourself you'll gain a great deal of respect from those around you. In addition, this may also serve the purpose of letting everyone around you know that you're not filthy rich (a lot of people think that if you came from a different country then you must have money, thus avoiding potential "leeches".
For instance, in my hometown there's an american guy who married one of the local girls. This guy is one of those who does not mind getting down and dirty and helping out people any way he can. You see him carrying chairs to people's funeral - even though he may not know them personally, giving people rides to the hospital, etc...This guy has earned a great deal of respect within the community and everyone loves him.
I think as long as maintain the attitute you have now, you'll do fine.

 

[alaroca]

Canadian Home School Option

Gregg
Have you thought about home schooling the kids? I am from Canada, and lived most of my adult life in the DR. I have been back in Canada for a few years and now have a daughter. I will be returning to the DR with her in the next year or so, and have been looking into different schools etc. I called the Ministry of Education in Toronto, and they provide, for $120.00 CDN, a year's worth of curriculum, which you send back and it is graded by an Ontario Teacher. (If you don't think you can home school them yourself, you could find an ex pat who would like a part time job teaching.) They offer this from elementary through the end of high school. This way, you will be avoiding the high cost of private schools in the DR, and getting a better education than the public schools. And,if the kids ever want to pursue University in Canada, then they will not have any upgrading to do. I know part of your rationale for sending them to public school might be so that they learn spanish, or for social reasons,etc.., but they will learn spanish no matter what, simply by living there, and they will make friends and have social lives no matter what-trust me on this-I moved to the DR when I was 14 and learned spanish and had a great circle of friends. Anyway, just food for thought...

 

[Juan_Lopez]

It is possible.

Hi Gregg,

What you are asking is very do-able. As long as what you want to do is in your heart and not your head I would say go for it.

I have been living now for about 4 years in an area between Moca and Salcedo. This is the Cibao area a few have mentioned. It is strictly an agricultural area. Santiago is about 30 km away. I have lived a total of 7+ years in the country and this middle-country living is best for me and my family. In 2 hours we can be just about anywhere in the country including the 2 big cities...Santo Domingo and Santiago.

I have a wife and 2 year old baby. We are only now finally building a house and have rented prior to this. We own total of about 20 acres of land in varying amounts. We harvest lots of plantains and papaya and smaller amounts of many other fruits and veggies... we are also now getting into chickens for the eggs and as they get older and less productive they end up on the dinner plate.

Feel free to PM me any specific questions you may have and I will try and answer them.

There is a thread (insights into a "middle class" of the Dominican Republic ) that I commented about the monthly living expenses ..about 6 months ago... double those figures for current rates. That thread has some interesting insights into a "middle class" of the Dominican Republic located here:
http://dr1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26342

Juan_Lopez

 

[sjh]

If you do all or most of the work yourself you will be seen and admired as a hard worker BUT you will also be percieved as either crazy or a bit slow.

In either case, I would suggest that you have better and more profitable ways to spend your time than to do brute work....

As a gringo you have a licence to be as strange as you like down here. It is rather liberating

 

[Lambada]

I would say it's the opposite. See, as a foreigner people will not be expecting you to do anything yourself, but to pay for it. So, I think, that if you get down and do some of the dirty work yourself you'll gain a great deal of respect from those around you. In addition, this may also serve the purpose of letting everyone around you know that you're not filthy rich (a lot of people think that if you came from a different country then you must have money, thus avoiding potential "leeches".
For instance, in my hometown there's an american guy who married one of the local girls. This guy is one of those who does not mind getting down and dirty and helping out people any way he can. You see him carrying chairs to people's funeral - even though he may not know them personally, giving people rides to the hospital, etc...This guy has earned a great deal of respect within the community and everyone loves him.
I think as long as maintain the attitute you have now, you'll do fine.

I absolutely agree Suarezn. People here are pleasantly surprised when they see that the foreigner is competent in manual work - our first few years here were spent doing most of the household jobs ourselves. Neighbours were really impressed when they saw me doing the washing by hand (we didn't have a washing machine then either). They actually thought I wouldn't have known how to do that! Likewise, I got an audience when I cut the grass by hand (we didn't have a lawn mower then) - my partner said it was because I was using the high tech. cutter (shears - 2 blades) as opposed to the one bladed machete. Now other people do these jobs for us, but it didn't do us any harm to do them ourselves, initially, & it did increase the respect we received from the local community.
I agree though that it is a balancing act, & initially Gregg you will find your workload is high just getting ordinary everyday things organised. If it is something that used to take me a day toorganise in UK, then I would allow 7 to get the same thing achieved here!