- Thread starter souljanyn3
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Should Dominican Spanish be its own language like Haitian Creole?
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I have highlighted two words that I am having a hard time understanding just exactly what you mean. As for reading, are you talking about material found in Dominican literature, poetry, newspaper columns, perhaps magazine articles? As for spelling... here is an example, is the word feo spelled differently in the Dominican Republic as opposed to how its spelled in Argentina or Nicaragua. I mean if a word is misspelled, its not just a Dominican anomaly, right?
Here is an example of an article by Juan Bosch...
Juan Bosch: De Crist?bal Col?n a Fidel Castro. El Caribe, frontera imperial.
Ediciones Alfaguara, S.a., Barcelona, 1970.
Do you see something ugly in the syntax or perhaps the reasoning behind the words that make it ohh so Dominican?
So please do help explain just what you mean by saying Dominican Spanish is the poorest you read and the spelling just as bad.....some examples of what you mean, por favor.
A.Hildalgo remember Juan Bosch is of higher class...not that it matters but he has to be formal and wright a letter in Spanish not Dominican Spanish...and yes there is a difference between the two.
I get it now.. (Not to worry. I'm always calm)
So you want to invent a language for uneducated country bumpkins, call it a creole, so that they can wallow in their despair for lack of communication with the more educated world.
Sounds like a great idea.
Screw those poor uneducated fools.
Let's just give them a language and forget the rest.
You see how it is?
You haven't a clue what you're talking about, you invent phony facts, and you aspire to do something stupid.
What a great combo.
Anything else up your sleeve?
So it's thousands of Arawak words and, what?
12 African?
22?
do I hear 32?
You have no substantiation for any of your arguments, and when pressured, you change the numbers, and when proven wrong, you change the terms.
You're the one who came out with all these, "facts".
Nobody else.
So don't be telling anyone to calm down.
Look inside yourself first, before presuming to know anything about me or anyone else.
You are far from being perspicacious and you might stick with trying to figure yourself out, and why you do and say the things you do.
Dominican Spanish: Ay Dio poi que me paiso eto.
Spanish: Dois por que me paso esto.
Dominican Spanish: Ese un Jibaro de poi aya.
Spanish: Ese hombre es de una serba.
Dominican Spanish: Biete a laba esa Jicotea
Spanish: Laba la tortuga
Dominican Spanish: Eise hombre tiene un bembe de su madre.
Spanish: ese hombre tiene los labios grueso.
Dominican Spanish: Ese que ta ai es un Pariguyo
Spanish: Ese hombre es chistoso
Dominican Spanish: Yo teingo un Maco en mi bohio.
Spanish: Yo tengo un sapo en mi casa
Dominican Spanish: Como ta tu?
Spanish: Como estas?
Dominican Spanish: Dame un chin-chin poi-favor
Spanish: Dame un poco por favor
Dominican Spanish: Pero que lo que loca.
Spanish: Pero Que es lo que pasa.
Spanish: Dois por que me paso esto.
Dominican Spanish: Ese un Jibaro de poi aya.
Spanish: Ese hombre es de una serba.
Dominican Spanish: Biete a laba esa Jicotea
Spanish: Laba la tortuga
Dominican Spanish: Eise hombre tiene un bembe de su madre.
Spanish: ese hombre tiene los labios grueso.
Dominican Spanish: Ese que ta ai es un Pariguyo
Spanish: Ese hombre es chistoso
Dominican Spanish: Yo teingo un Maco en mi bohio.
Spanish: Yo tengo un sapo en mi casa
Dominican Spanish: Como ta tu?
Spanish: Como estas?
Dominican Spanish: Dame un chin-chin poi-favor
Spanish: Dame un poco por favor
Dominican Spanish: Pero que lo que loca.
Spanish: Pero Que es lo que pasa.
well Rocky I havent changed numbers and this thread was created to see peoples opinions on the subject...
As someone already mentioned to you in this thread, you're hanging around with the wrong people.
You are simply demonstrating how uneducated people speak poorly.
The same applies to any language in any country.
It does not in the least bit support your argument, in fact, it proves it wrong.
And now you have it.
I can't quite imagine what your agenda might be, but one thing for sure is that Dominican Spanish is not a creole.
You have the consensus of the masses, plus all the proof necessary.
Ok Rocky...I dont have an agenda I'm just asking what people think about Dominican Spanish and wether or not it is a Creole...
The verdict is out - it is mutually intelligible with Spanish, end of story, albeit a dialect if you will. Just because a minority of Spanish speaking individuals have a difficult time understanding some Dominicans, this isn't respective of the general majority of the cases.
Other similar examples of dialects would be southern or New England English in the States or a good London brogue - heck if I know what they are saying but everyone tells me it is English!
Here I go again
Dear relatives, This is certainly a lively topic. I love this kind of dialogue.
I would like to add my two cents if I may.
Regarding whether Dominican/Caribbean Spanish should be its own dialect or kreyol: I think it is clear that we can understand and converse with peoples from all Spanish speaking countries. This in and of itself makes our Spanish simply Spanish and not a Kreyol. But this conclusion raises a valid question: Can people from these other Spanish speaking countries understand Dominicans, particulary Dominicans from isolated communities, Cibao etc? The examples that Souljanyn3 made might be understood by most Domincans, but can a person from Spain truly understand a campesino who might say: "Ei va aimai una nasa pa casai curi aya en ei seibo,pero ei no huye, ei camina como una catua" The answer would probably be no. So this is up in the air and not clear cut.
As for the amount of Taino Lexicon in Dominican/Caribbean Spanish there are approximately 3200. These include 200 everyday words such as yamagui, chuke, guayiga Ciguato,macana, etc, etc as will as the 3000 attested topyms that we are all very familair with.
As for the African, not enough studies have been made on the survival of African words simply because this is not a simple undertaking. Considering the multidude of tribal peoples that were brought as slaves to the DR, it is hard to pinpoint just how many words there are. That said, I do not believe that the African words are higher than the Taino, but they cannot be minimal either. In some places in the DR you can clearly hear archaic Africanisms in the speach patterns and the words people use.
I asked a museum visitor from Spain what he thought of the way Caribbean people spoke Spanish. He laughed an then replied "those people speak Spanish. I didnt get offended. It made me proud that our "Spanish" is unique to us. Funny this thread reminded me of that incident....
Dear relatives, This is certainly a lively topic. I love this kind of dialogue.
I would like to add my two cents if I may.
Regarding whether Dominican/Caribbean Spanish should be its own dialect or kreyol: I think it is clear that we can understand and converse with peoples from all Spanish speaking countries. This in and of itself makes our Spanish simply Spanish and not a Kreyol. But this conclusion raises a valid question: Can people from these other Spanish speaking countries understand Dominicans, particulary Dominicans from isolated communities, Cibao etc? The examples that Souljanyn3 made might be understood by most Domincans, but can a person from Spain truly understand a campesino who might say: "Ei va aimai una nasa pa casai curi aya en ei seibo,pero ei no huye, ei camina como una catua" The answer would probably be no. So this is up in the air and not clear cut.
As for the amount of Taino Lexicon in Dominican/Caribbean Spanish there are approximately 3200. These include 200 everyday words such as yamagui, chuke, guayiga Ciguato,macana, etc, etc as will as the 3000 attested topyms that we are all very familair with.
As for the African, not enough studies have been made on the survival of African words simply because this is not a simple undertaking. Considering the multidude of tribal peoples that were brought as slaves to the DR, it is hard to pinpoint just how many words there are. That said, I do not believe that the African words are higher than the Taino, but they cannot be minimal either. In some places in the DR you can clearly hear archaic Africanisms in the speach patterns and the words people use.
I asked a museum visitor from Spain what he thought of the way Caribbean people spoke Spanish. He laughed an then replied "those people speak Spanish. I didnt get offended. It made me proud that our "Spanish" is unique to us. Funny this thread reminded me of that incident....
I think there are several things that need to be taken into account in this discussion, and I'll present them in the form of questions.
1. Do most foreigners who are native-Spanish speakers understand the average Dominican?
2. Does the average Dominican understands "standard" Spanish (Castilian)?
3. Have any of you taken into account that the Spanish spoken in the Caribbean has many influences from the Andalucian region and the Canary Islands dialect?
4. Have any of you taken into account that many of the Taino and African words that pepper Dominican Spanish are also found in the rest of the Spanish-speaking Caribbean?
5a. Have any of you taken into account that the Cibae?o dialect is not the only dialect (or maybe these are sub-dialect? :ermm
in the Dominican Republic?
5b. If so, what would you say regarding the speech patterns in the eastern region? The south? La capital? Are these "new languages"? As far as I can tell, the few insisting in considering "Dominican Spanish" a separate language are only focusing on the Cibae?o dialect, almost completely ignoring the other dialects present in the country.
5c. How can anyone say that Dominicans speak a local kreyol or patua o whatever, when the entire population doesn't speak in the same way? The differences are not only due to geography, but also economic status. There is a gulf between the Spanish spoken by the upper class vs. the lower class, and there is also another gulf between the regions.
Compare the answers to other languages spoken in the region that are relatively new, like Haitian Kreyol, Papiamento (spelling?), English-patua, etc.
6. Are there enough similarities to effectively make the case that "Dominican Spanish" is in fact a new language, separate from "standard" Spanish?
The answer to this last question would greatly depend on the answers to questions 1 & 2 for the languages such as Kreyol, Papiamento, etc.
More often than not, Kreyol is not intelligible to French-speaking individuals; however I'm not sure if people who speak Kreyol and nothing else understand French, whether vocal or in writing. The same holds for the other languages.
I already know the answers to all these questions, but would like to see the responses from others, particularly from those who are attempting to prove that Dominican Spanish is "another language".
-NALs
1. Do most foreigners who are native-Spanish speakers understand the average Dominican?
2. Does the average Dominican understands "standard" Spanish (Castilian)?
3. Have any of you taken into account that the Spanish spoken in the Caribbean has many influences from the Andalucian region and the Canary Islands dialect?
4. Have any of you taken into account that many of the Taino and African words that pepper Dominican Spanish are also found in the rest of the Spanish-speaking Caribbean?
5a. Have any of you taken into account that the Cibae?o dialect is not the only dialect (or maybe these are sub-dialect? :ermm
in the Dominican Republic?5b. If so, what would you say regarding the speech patterns in the eastern region? The south? La capital? Are these "new languages"? As far as I can tell, the few insisting in considering "Dominican Spanish" a separate language are only focusing on the Cibae?o dialect, almost completely ignoring the other dialects present in the country.
5c. How can anyone say that Dominicans speak a local kreyol or patua o whatever, when the entire population doesn't speak in the same way? The differences are not only due to geography, but also economic status. There is a gulf between the Spanish spoken by the upper class vs. the lower class, and there is also another gulf between the regions.
Compare the answers to other languages spoken in the region that are relatively new, like Haitian Kreyol, Papiamento (spelling?), English-patua, etc.
6. Are there enough similarities to effectively make the case that "Dominican Spanish" is in fact a new language, separate from "standard" Spanish?
The answer to this last question would greatly depend on the answers to questions 1 & 2 for the languages such as Kreyol, Papiamento, etc.
More often than not, Kreyol is not intelligible to French-speaking individuals; however I'm not sure if people who speak Kreyol and nothing else understand French, whether vocal or in writing. The same holds for the other languages.
I already know the answers to all these questions, but would like to see the responses from others, particularly from those who are attempting to prove that Dominican Spanish is "another language".
-NALs
They don't, in my experience. French can get you only so far in Haiti - basic greetings and all that - bonjour, bonsoir, merci, - and the French speaker may be able to follow the gist of a conversation or understand a basic text because a lot of nouns are phonetically similar, but as the grammar is different, anything beyond that - not really.
Interesting and without a doubt someof your points do hold water. But i'll take a whack at answering some of these
1. Do most foreigners who are native-Spanish speakers understand the average Dominican?
Some do, some don't. Many have a hard time with our various cadences, speech patterns and the plethora of words that come from either the Taino or African.
2. Does the average Dominican understands "standard" Spanish (Castilian)?
Of course. Sort of like Haitians who can readily understand French and Kreyol, while the French cannot understand Kreyol....
3. Have any of you taken into account that the Spanish spoken in the Caribbean has many influences from the Andalucian region and the Canary Islands dialect?
I have. What I have found in regards to Canary Islanders is that they were notorius for returning to their homelands. It is taken as fact by Canary Islanders themselves that their Spanish is influenced by Caribbean/ Venezuelen influences and not the other way around.
4. Have any of you taken into account that many of the Taino and African words that pepper Dominican Spanish are also found in the rest of the Spanish-speaking Caribbean?
This should come as know surprise since Taino dialects predominated the entire Caribbean. Even the Island Carib who were ethinically Cariban Speakers, spoke Arawakan dialects.Why? Because they raided the larger islands for women and in time their men and women spoke different languages.
5a. Have any of you taken into account that the Cibae?o dialect is not the only dialect (or maybe these are sub-dialect? :ermm in the Dominican Republic?
Cibaeno dialect.......There are about four or five distinctive regional dialects on the island ( if one can call them dialects)
5b. If so, what would you say regarding the speech patterns in the eastern region? The south? La capital? Are these "new languages"? As far as I can tell, the few insisting in considering "Dominican Spanish" a separate language are only focusing on the Cibae?o dialect, almost completely ignoring the other dialects present in the country.
I for one am not insisting on making Dominican Spanish a distinctive Language. That can hardly be said, claimed or other wise. What can be said is that the regional forms of speech, along with the amount of words that can be attributed to African and especially Taino, makes our Spanish not just in the DR but PR and Cuba as well, very unique indeed.
5c. How can anyone say that Dominicans speak a local kreyol or patua o whatever, when the entire population doesn't speak in the same way? The differences are not only due to geography, but also economic status. There is a gulf between the Spanish spoken by the upper class vs. the lower class, and there is also another gulf between the regions.
The upper class and other elite portions of the population speak "better" due to education, etc. But the real Dominican is what is found in the Cibao, Maguana, Higuey, etc. Its amazing if not irresponisble the way many Dominicans make fun of the way campesinos speak when in fact this is who we are like it or not.
Compare the answers to other languages spoken in the region that are relatively new, like Haitian Kreyol, Papiamento (spelling?), English-patua, etc.
6. Are there enough similarities to effectively make the case that "Dominican Spanish" is in fact a new language, separate from "standard" Spanish?
Dominican Spanish...........which one? It can be surmised that we do indeed Speak Spanish. It can also be said that we have certain peculiarities in our own specific Spanish that makes it Uniquely ours. Just like Mexicans, Peruvians Etc. It may not be another language, but it sure as heck is ours and it is unique.
I wonder how many Castllian speakers feel about the way campesinos on out island speak and if they consider it........Spanish...like theirs.
1. Do most foreigners who are native-Spanish speakers understand the average Dominican?
Some do, some don't. Many have a hard time with our various cadences, speech patterns and the plethora of words that come from either the Taino or African.
2. Does the average Dominican understands "standard" Spanish (Castilian)?
Of course. Sort of like Haitians who can readily understand French and Kreyol, while the French cannot understand Kreyol....
3. Have any of you taken into account that the Spanish spoken in the Caribbean has many influences from the Andalucian region and the Canary Islands dialect?
I have. What I have found in regards to Canary Islanders is that they were notorius for returning to their homelands. It is taken as fact by Canary Islanders themselves that their Spanish is influenced by Caribbean/ Venezuelen influences and not the other way around.
4. Have any of you taken into account that many of the Taino and African words that pepper Dominican Spanish are also found in the rest of the Spanish-speaking Caribbean?
This should come as know surprise since Taino dialects predominated the entire Caribbean. Even the Island Carib who were ethinically Cariban Speakers, spoke Arawakan dialects.Why? Because they raided the larger islands for women and in time their men and women spoke different languages.
5a. Have any of you taken into account that the Cibae?o dialect is not the only dialect (or maybe these are sub-dialect? :ermm
in the Dominican Republic?Cibaeno dialect.......There are about four or five distinctive regional dialects on the island ( if one can call them dialects)
5b. If so, what would you say regarding the speech patterns in the eastern region? The south? La capital? Are these "new languages"? As far as I can tell, the few insisting in considering "Dominican Spanish" a separate language are only focusing on the Cibae?o dialect, almost completely ignoring the other dialects present in the country.
I for one am not insisting on making Dominican Spanish a distinctive Language. That can hardly be said, claimed or other wise. What can be said is that the regional forms of speech, along with the amount of words that can be attributed to African and especially Taino, makes our Spanish not just in the DR but PR and Cuba as well, very unique indeed.
5c. How can anyone say that Dominicans speak a local kreyol or patua o whatever, when the entire population doesn't speak in the same way? The differences are not only due to geography, but also economic status. There is a gulf between the Spanish spoken by the upper class vs. the lower class, and there is also another gulf between the regions.
The upper class and other elite portions of the population speak "better" due to education, etc. But the real Dominican is what is found in the Cibao, Maguana, Higuey, etc. Its amazing if not irresponisble the way many Dominicans make fun of the way campesinos speak when in fact this is who we are like it or not.
Compare the answers to other languages spoken in the region that are relatively new, like Haitian Kreyol, Papiamento (spelling?), English-patua, etc.
6. Are there enough similarities to effectively make the case that "Dominican Spanish" is in fact a new language, separate from "standard" Spanish?
Dominican Spanish...........which one? It can be surmised that we do indeed Speak Spanish. It can also be said that we have certain peculiarities in our own specific Spanish that makes it Uniquely ours. Just like Mexicans, Peruvians Etc. It may not be another language, but it sure as heck is ours and it is unique.
I wonder how many Castllian speakers feel about the way campesinos on out island speak and if they consider it........Spanish...like theirs.
I agree there with Baracutay, this is what i've been saying the whole time, we all agree its NOT another language, but it still posses distinct qualities, in specially in the root of our homeland, the countryside.
I always hear the canary islander/andalusian thing thrown around, fact is there is no recorded cutting of s'es or other peculiriaties of the sort until post 1800s in these regions of spain, that in itself tells you something. Canary islander and Andalusian speech is more of a mixture of back migration of peoples. The fact is the only other people who have speech similar to Dominicans have large African and Native american populations. For example, Coastal venezuela, Puertorico, Cuba(Specially Oriente), Carribean Coastal Colombian(Cartagena).
One question to Baracutay, i am very interested in the Macorix natives of the island, how distinct was their language? And, did their villages stretch from San Francisco de Macoris to San Pedro de macoris?
I always hear the canary islander/andalusian thing thrown around, fact is there is no recorded cutting of s'es or other peculiriaties of the sort until post 1800s in these regions of spain, that in itself tells you something. Canary islander and Andalusian speech is more of a mixture of back migration of peoples. The fact is the only other people who have speech similar to Dominicans have large African and Native american populations. For example, Coastal venezuela, Puertorico, Cuba(Specially Oriente), Carribean Coastal Colombian(Cartagena).
One question to Baracutay, i am very interested in the Macorix natives of the island, how distinct was their language? And, did their villages stretch from San Francisco de Macoris to San Pedro de macoris?
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