CyaBye3015 said:
Don't be so hard on the Dominican people. Keep in mind that out of 8.8 million inhabitants only about a dozen or so are the ones behind the decisions which have created the ecomonic mess.
- Thread starter Conchman
- Start date
So if the Banking collapses started it all....
Don't be so hard on the Dominican people. Keep in mind that out of 8.8 million inhabitants only about a dozen or so are the ones behind the decisions which have created the ecomonic mess.
CyaBye3015 said:
Blame ultimately rest on the people who control DR and the people who elect them. That said, you should not be naive to think that IMF and the industrial countries that control it, lends money solely out of altruism. There is lots of money to be made out of greed and corruption.
Excellent point. But another point is that the aforementioned systemic exploitation of Latin America actually does not benefit regular Americans either. American industry and jobs would be helped by the creation of robust economies and markets for American goods in Latin America. Yet Wall Street and the IMF work together to ensure weak Latin American institutions and economies. As was compared in an above post, it's very much like welfare systems that ensure a base level of poverty but do nothing to encourage growth.xamaicano said:
The only beneficiaries are the ones involved in the scam itself. The tragic thing is how many of the Americans on this board can't see it and, instead, relegate themselves to knee jerk, schoolyard type remarks in response because they view the whole topic as leading itself to anti-Americanism.
Regular Americans are being scammed by this too. But who cares about jobs anymore?
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Porfi--
I would ask a simple, straightforward question...
Where and how have the rich of the CE, SA countries made their money, what have they done to benefit the population of their countries, and why don't they make an effort to make the changes in the government, the economy and the infrastructure that will obviously benefit themselves and the population as a whole???
Have they become completely subverted by the Big Bad Monied North and EU controlled WTO, IMF, UN, OAS ogres also???
And just what are the interest rates charged by the IMF and the World Bank. Is it in the neighborhood of 30-50% (which certainly would be exorbitant)?
Just what is it anyway since you're so knowledgable of these entities and their inner-workings.
Care to answer?? Or, are you just making a play on words? Put your damn money where your mouth is and answer the question honestly instead of spewing your poison.
Not refering to your allegations of conspiracy in the marketplace by the international community, but asking a few simple questions as outlined above.
I'm neither defending nor denying but am asking you for factual evidence of your allegations. Dollars and cents, please, not references to retorical discourses by others who also don't provide some the concrete figures you love to omit.
Texas Bill
I would ask a simple, straightforward question...
Where and how have the rich of the CE, SA countries made their money, what have they done to benefit the population of their countries, and why don't they make an effort to make the changes in the government, the economy and the infrastructure that will obviously benefit themselves and the population as a whole???
Have they become completely subverted by the Big Bad Monied North and EU controlled WTO, IMF, UN, OAS ogres also???
And just what are the interest rates charged by the IMF and the World Bank. Is it in the neighborhood of 30-50% (which certainly would be exorbitant)?
Just what is it anyway since you're so knowledgable of these entities and their inner-workings.
Care to answer?? Or, are you just making a play on words? Put your damn money where your mouth is and answer the question honestly instead of spewing your poison.
Not refering to your allegations of conspiracy in the marketplace by the international community, but asking a few simple questions as outlined above.
I'm neither defending nor denying but am asking you for factual evidence of your allegations. Dollars and cents, please, not references to retorical discourses by others who also don't provide some the concrete figures you love to omit.
Texas Bill
The only concrete question you seem to ask is about IMF interest rates. I don't know exactly what the interest rates are for the DR program, but I know they are below market. They are below market because the IMF subsidizes them through billions of US/European/Japanese taxpayer dollars (another reason for regular Americans to hate the IMF).Texas Bill said:
But that doesn't matter when it comes to the exploitative nature of the situation because the IMF always demands that the JP Morgans, Banco Santanders and Morgan Stanleys of the world get paid first, and those payments are at very high rates of interest. And, obviously, when you use borrowed money to pay borrowed money, you are compounding your debt service costs regardless of the rates.
This link might interest you: http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/pdinter/march98s.html
But then again, probably not. After reading it, I'm sure you and Criss will agree that the National Center for Policy Analysis is clearly just as anti-American and incapable of self-analysis as most of the posters here, right?
This is your second post of this nature. Are you capable of anything other than sniping?CyaBye3015 said:
Porfio_Rubirosa said:
Porfi--
I'll honor your invitation to read the citation you have posted, but submit that the questions are just as concrete in their query as your statements are of purported facts.
Again, what are the 'high' rates of interest you alledge are charged by the entities described, and what about the other question I asked in all sincerity???
Texas Bill
Conchman said:
Conchman--
I hope your refering to Porfi's response. If you are, that's my point in my responding post.
If you're not, then yo're right, the 'facts' he has presented don't suit my argument.
Texas Bill
Porfi---
I have read the 1999 report that you cited. it was interesting, but seriously, i have absolutely no reference to whatever the determinations of the JCE(?) made have been acted upon, nor whether such an acting upon is 'in the mill'!
That the divergence of the IMF from it's original mandate has taken place, is a foregone conclusion after viewing it's actions over the past few years. I can only agree with you in that regard.
I suppose that the thing to do will be to contact my Congressman and get an update on what has transpired, from a government standpoint, and what steps my government intends to take to rectify the situation. Then to continue with follow-up questions as to what progress is being made toward harnasing and reducing the magnitude of divergence of mandate as regards the US contribution to it's resources and the degree of oversight that Congress intends to foster.
I still think, however, that the role of the IMF, in it's original mandate, is a viable resource to those nations that are having serious economic problems that can't be resolved without an outside infusion of capital to their central banks.
Texas Bill
I have read the 1999 report that you cited. it was interesting, but seriously, i have absolutely no reference to whatever the determinations of the JCE(?) made have been acted upon, nor whether such an acting upon is 'in the mill'!
That the divergence of the IMF from it's original mandate has taken place, is a foregone conclusion after viewing it's actions over the past few years. I can only agree with you in that regard.
I suppose that the thing to do will be to contact my Congressman and get an update on what has transpired, from a government standpoint, and what steps my government intends to take to rectify the situation. Then to continue with follow-up questions as to what progress is being made toward harnasing and reducing the magnitude of divergence of mandate as regards the US contribution to it's resources and the degree of oversight that Congress intends to foster.
I still think, however, that the role of the IMF, in it's original mandate, is a viable resource to those nations that are having serious economic problems that can't be resolved without an outside infusion of capital to their central banks.
Texas Bill
The interest on the sovereign bonds due 2006 is 9.5% compounded. The interest on bank loans is, on average 3% to 5% higher. The US government borrows money at less than 2% interest.Conchman said:
Not a bad deal for the banks and investment houses at all, given that they have practically no risk with the IMF acting as loan shark enforcer.
Another interesting link: http://www.odiousdebts.org/odiousdebts/index.cfm?DSP=content&ContentID=2454
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Message from Bill's Congressman to Bill: "I don't care. I received $+++ in contributions from the financial sector last year. They are very happy with the current system, notwithstanding that it does nothing to benefit you and, in fact, probably hurts overall economic growth for this country by limiting trade potential. Enjoy your life in San Dominco. What part of Mexico is that in, anyway?"Texas Bill said:
Porfio_Rubirosa said:
I'm capable of something other than sniping, but only a fool argues with another fool!!
Porfio_Rubirosa said:
pORFI??
Can't you do better than that, or do you always project other politicians in your own image???
That was truly a nasty remark from one who is supposed to be debating(?) such crucial issues. I truly am disappointed in you, I expected better!
Oh, well, I suppose one should expect such from one who has evidently run out of ammunition and can't get a resupply.
BTW, whose crystal ball did you use to look into the future?? You should take it back cause it's broke.
And contrary to Dominican Politicians, our Representatives do listen to the majority and act upon obvious transgressions.
But with your background in the political arena, I wouldn't expect you to understand that; it's against your religion.
BTW, the reference you gave is really out of date! 1999???
And how about that reference in today's New York Times Web page referencing that 'Secret Bank' based in the Grand Duchy of Lichenstein, who is purported to loan money all over the world to 'commercial' banks who then re-loan it 'for a fee'? Maybe they supply JPM, World Bank, etc., etc. with the funds?
Also, why does the Third World keep coming back for more and more? And doesn't that unethical buyback of union F--- following the initial announcement of the IMF accord give you any indication of why some of the interest rates are at 10%??? How often have machinations of the type Hippo pulled entered into the picture? Don't the actions of the recipients of the funds have anything to do with the attitude of the lending agencies??
Or, do you just think that these lenders should give these countries money and forget about getting paid back because the country REALLY need the funds???
For all the faults of the system, I think they have acted with prudence and realism. And I think all your rhetoric in opposition to those institutions is sadly misplaced if you don't take into consideration the false, faulty and sometimes criminal actions of the recipients.
Blow your horn in opposition all you can, but in the final analysis the CA and SA countries have shown a very poor history of economic stability and are a serious credit risk to ANY lending agency. I son't find it unreasonable for the lenders to charge high interest because their risk justifies just that.
Texas Bill
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Conchman, You said in one sentence what it took Texas Bill four paragraphs of vitrol to get at.Conchman said:
The reason is that it is not the "countries" that benefit from these loans, but, rather, the political class of the countries. The money is stolen or used to buy political favors and, ultimately, the retention of power through corruption. Worse yet, much of the stolen money ends up in Miami, Zurich, Panama and Cayman, meaning that it doesn't even trickle down into the local economy.
What you see in Bill's response is the classic panic of some of the American expats on this board when they are faced with reality. I mean, Bill thinks his congressman gives two sh_its about this though Bill hasn't (I presume) contributed massive $$ to him nor leads a powerful special interest group. That says alot about him. Apparently, Bill learned about government by watching "Schoolhouse Rock".
I answered his questions about interest rates - though, as you recognized in your post, it was probably put out there just to try and prove that I didn't know the answer.
I've made clear over and over that Dominicans share the blame for continually electing corrupt government, but that this does not mean that the ongoing spiral involving US financial interests, corrupt Latin American governments (using foreign money to stay in power) and the IMF does not play a role, and that these loans are not odious.
I told him that the IMF issue has nothing to do with being anti-American and, in fact, that the IMF hurts regular working Americans because it is taxpayer subsidized, weakens the economies of potential trading partners, and solely benefits financeers, politicians and dealmakers. Yet, he and others just can't stop their knees from jerking. It's like the Dr. Strangelove character with the mechanical arm -- write anything that could even be interpreted as "anti-American" and the arm swings up -- the diatribe begins!
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