- Thread starter Conchman
- Start date
So if the Banking collapses started it all....
xamaicano said:
VERY interesting reading!!! thanks for the chance to look at things from another angle!! - Grahame.
My only comment is that if a government is going to look for loans, they will find them. Better the IMF who will attach at least some strings to political or economic reform.
You basically admitted in your post that the loans end up being misused by the receiver of the loans. Thats where the problem is. Look there for answers.
You basically admitted in your post that the loans end up being misused by the receiver of the loans. Thats where the problem is. Look there for answers.
I agree. Let's look to the beneficiaries of the loans. They are: The Dominican political class; the deal brokers; Wall Street. These are the people who receive the benefits of the loans, fees and interest. Shall we hang them all since they are all essentially in an unholy alliance?Conchman said:
You may say that Wall Street has a capitalist right to exploit. But does Wall Street have the right to lend money to corrupt countries with poor credit without taking on any risk because of IMF interference? To quote from the Cato Institute, can they be "Christians without a hell"?
Again, the proceeds of these loans are actually used to fund corrupt practices to ensure that corrupt governments can buy their way to staying in power. It's a vicious cycle -- one that American and European taxpayers should know about and act to stop because it's morally wrong and does nothing to benefit the great majority of those taxpayers anyway.
Agreed. But once the IMF is done, the vicious cycle repeats, with commerical and investment banks rearranging millions for future governments to steal -- once more with full knowledge that the IMF will come in and pay them off again. And IMF-imposed austerity is horribly painful on everyone in the country who did NOT benefit from the loans in the first place.Conchman said:
http://www.dr1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=119644&postcount=5
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Because I don't feel like debating (I'm taking a break from all that debating I did in June/July of this year on DR1) I will only suggest this for everyone to read.
The book is called this:
The Best Democracy Money Can Buy
By: Greg Palast
Read this book from start to finish and then cast your vote on this issue.
It might surprise many many many of you.
those are my 2 cents in this.
Remember, the book is called The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.
For those of you who like reviews of books by other folks, here are a couple taken from Amazon.com .... (I always check here for reviews before buying)
Very good book., June 14, 2004
Reviewer: M. D. Fonseca "carmarthen" (Zunder) - See all my reviews
Very good book. Maybe the people who say that Palast is a lie are the same people that think that Oswald acted alone...
The Bush election was a fraud. Yes, the Florida electionwas a fraud.
About the evil IMF and the World Bank, I agree with the writer. It's plain for all to see. I just think he forgot to mention of of the reasons why so many Third World countries fell into the greedy hands of the IMF, the market and private companies: corruption. General governmental corruption in such a way that a first world country common person can not even think about. Corruption contributed in a important way to make these poor countries suffer continued deficits and go to the IMF for loan.
Should be mandatory reading for all Americans., May 17, 2004
Reviewer: "almandude" (Rowlett, TX) - See all my reviews
Ok, all Britons too.
Not only is Palast an excellent investigative reporter, he is a good writer as well. As you travel the backwaters of corporate shell-games, globalization disasters, and politicians that seemingly have never known shame...you find yourself asking, "Why didn't the mainstream press cover this?"
And that is one of the most important reasons to read this tightly-knit, well-crafted collection of expos?s.
Good work, Greg.
The most IMPORTANT book you'll ever read..., April 18, 2004
Reviewer: "dominican_chic" (Brooklyn, NY United States) - See all my reviews
OK, we have all seen the "Save the Children" commercials on TV, we see the dire poverty people all over the world live in, and we say to ourselves "gosh, I wish there was something I could do..." And we try to reason why the people in these countries live in such poverty, "Well, their government must be corrupt" or "People over there just don't know how to run things".
What if I told you that the United States and a handful of industrialized European Nations set up these countries for failure just to earn huge profits (think IMF and World Bank). What if I told you that from 1960-1980 per capita income grew 73% in South America and 34% in Africa when their governments were running things, and that since 1980 (because of the IMF/World Bank/the Reagan model and so many other reasons explained in depth in this book) South America has experienced no growth and African incomes have declined by 23%.
Excerpt from book:
"Take Tanzania. Today in that African state, 1.3 million people are getting ready to die of AIDS. The IMF and World Bank have come to the rescue... require Tanzania to charge for what were previously free hospital appointments. Since the bank imposed this requirement, the number of patients treated in Dar es Salaam's three big public hospitals have dropped by 53 percent. The Bank's cure is working!" (p. 149)
The IMF and World Bank condemn people and countries to death, and not just abroad... You have to read this book... It will make you so sick to your stomach that you'll want to kill all the guys in the IMF/World bank with your bare hands, and...
Remember all those young activists you saw on TV protesting outside of all IMF/World Bank meetings held in posh hotels? Well, after reading this book I guarantee you'll want to join those guys.
Save the world and its people, BAN THE IMF/WORLD BANK (and tell everyone to pick up this book, it's the truth).
The book is called this:
The Best Democracy Money Can Buy
By: Greg Palast
Read this book from start to finish and then cast your vote on this issue.
It might surprise many many many of you.
those are my 2 cents in this.
Remember, the book is called The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.
For those of you who like reviews of books by other folks, here are a couple taken from Amazon.com .... (I always check here for reviews before buying)
Very good book., June 14, 2004
Reviewer: M. D. Fonseca "carmarthen" (Zunder) - See all my reviews
Very good book. Maybe the people who say that Palast is a lie are the same people that think that Oswald acted alone...
The Bush election was a fraud. Yes, the Florida electionwas a fraud.
About the evil IMF and the World Bank, I agree with the writer. It's plain for all to see. I just think he forgot to mention of of the reasons why so many Third World countries fell into the greedy hands of the IMF, the market and private companies: corruption. General governmental corruption in such a way that a first world country common person can not even think about. Corruption contributed in a important way to make these poor countries suffer continued deficits and go to the IMF for loan.
Should be mandatory reading for all Americans., May 17, 2004
Reviewer: "almandude" (Rowlett, TX) - See all my reviews
Ok, all Britons too.
Not only is Palast an excellent investigative reporter, he is a good writer as well. As you travel the backwaters of corporate shell-games, globalization disasters, and politicians that seemingly have never known shame...you find yourself asking, "Why didn't the mainstream press cover this?"
And that is one of the most important reasons to read this tightly-knit, well-crafted collection of expos?s.
Good work, Greg.
The most IMPORTANT book you'll ever read..., April 18, 2004
Reviewer: "dominican_chic" (Brooklyn, NY United States) - See all my reviews
OK, we have all seen the "Save the Children" commercials on TV, we see the dire poverty people all over the world live in, and we say to ourselves "gosh, I wish there was something I could do..." And we try to reason why the people in these countries live in such poverty, "Well, their government must be corrupt" or "People over there just don't know how to run things".
What if I told you that the United States and a handful of industrialized European Nations set up these countries for failure just to earn huge profits (think IMF and World Bank). What if I told you that from 1960-1980 per capita income grew 73% in South America and 34% in Africa when their governments were running things, and that since 1980 (because of the IMF/World Bank/the Reagan model and so many other reasons explained in depth in this book) South America has experienced no growth and African incomes have declined by 23%.
Excerpt from book:
"Take Tanzania. Today in that African state, 1.3 million people are getting ready to die of AIDS. The IMF and World Bank have come to the rescue... require Tanzania to charge for what were previously free hospital appointments. Since the bank imposed this requirement, the number of patients treated in Dar es Salaam's three big public hospitals have dropped by 53 percent. The Bank's cure is working!" (p. 149)
The IMF and World Bank condemn people and countries to death, and not just abroad... You have to read this book... It will make you so sick to your stomach that you'll want to kill all the guys in the IMF/World bank with your bare hands, and...
Remember all those young activists you saw on TV protesting outside of all IMF/World Bank meetings held in posh hotels? Well, after reading this book I guarantee you'll want to join those guys.
Save the world and its people, BAN THE IMF/WORLD BANK (and tell everyone to pick up this book, it's the truth).
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If the Dominicans on this Forum,would spend as much time
Working to improve the Government in the DR,"Oh",I forgot,you don't live here do you?",as they do finding references that the problems in the DR can be directly linked to the USA,"IMF",World Bank",anywhere but at their own doorstep,things might get better sooner,instead of later!
But then,thats just my "Kneejerk"response!!(SoooooooooooYesterday,"kneejerk" THIS!) :classic: :lick:
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
Working to improve the Government in the DR,"Oh",I forgot,you don't live here do you?",as they do finding references that the problems in the DR can be directly linked to the USA,"IMF",World Bank",anywhere but at their own doorstep,things might get better sooner,instead of later!
But then,thats just my "Kneejerk"response!!(SoooooooooooYesterday,"kneejerk" THIS!) :classic: :lick:
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
Criss Colon said:
Criss---
THAT is exactly the point that I have been trying, in my inept way, to get across to Porfi and NalOws.
I admit to my inability to properly express that they both hve the cart before the horse, so to speak.
The reference to "The Heritage Foundation"(?) is one that is absolutely germane to the question. That article is very explanatory and points out the deficiencies and divergence from original mandate of both the IMF and the World Bank.
Fault finding is one of the easiest things in the world to do; it is the offering of solutions (corrective measures) to those faults that is difficult.
I have not seen any solutions offered by either Porfi or NalOws. Always fault finding.
Would it not be much better to explore the solutions in a positive manner than to continue to "knee-jerk" with commentaries which only lead to diatrebe, sarcastic and insulting remarks by participants in the debate.
I invite both to continue with the debate, but only if they can offer solutions which are workable. Otherwise, I will retire from the scene out of deference to others who are as tired of my commentaries as i am of making them on this subject.
Texas Bill
Thats my whole point, go where the problem is and stop blaming everybody else. Fight corruption, not the IMF.
Criss Colon said:
Solutions: Eliminate the IMF's function of propping up central banks overextended due to dollar loans. Create a world sovereign bankruptcy court that, unlike the IMF, only has partial representation from the G8 financial sector. Much like with regular bankruptcy, the creditors would have to negotiate and, perhaps, accept cents on the dollar.Texas Bill said:
Result: Without the big stick of the US-controlled IMF, lenders are forced to do real risk and corruption analysis on loans to developing countries. Loans become more restrictive, tied to actual projects and the proceeds are monitored (just as banks do with regular commercial clients now). Repayment terms are tied to dedicated revenue sources or collateralized. Governments are forced to reform if they want $$$$ (right now, the more corrupt they are, the more $$$ they get). Countries with bad debts lose access to capital, impoverishing the political class and forcing the electorate to face reality without being bought by dollars in elections. The whole system becomes more "regular".
Add to this that the US economy grows because the poverty-ensuring practices of the IMF end, democracy and economic responsibility mature in Latin America, and the US gains wealthier customers for its goods and services. In addition, billions of dollars are freed up in the US national budget that would otherwise be used for the IMF. This money can be used for education, infrastructure, etc.
Those Latin American countries that don't mature politically rightfully fall behind, incenting their populations to insist on change.
Texas, you wanted links. I gave you links. You wanted statistics. I gave you statistics. You wanted solutions, I gave you solutions. You have provided nothing other than paranoia and criticism. Do you care to change that now?
That's like saying "fight the fire, but leave what's fueling it alone."Conchman said:
Stated in another way, those who are trying to fight corruption in the DR would greatly appreciate it if the US-controlled IMF stayed out. It would make our already difficult fight a little easier.
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Porfio_Rubirosa said:
Porfi;
Finally, we're getting to the meat of the subject.
Yes, you gave me links, answers and solutions; and truthfully, I saw NO solutions in a lot of what you had to say; but, in the process of doing so, you skewed an otherwise logical approach with more vendictive sarcasm which took away a great deal of the impact of those links and answers. As to my being paranoid, well you're wrong there since I'm not afraid of the truth of any matter when it is presented in a manner consistant with good manners and is accurate. Many times in the past, you have given answers which were filled with sarcasm and condecension and NO-ONE has an appreciation for that. Refrain from using such language and we'll get along fine. Use it and all you do is incite a like answer mode and here we go again.
I think you are a well educated man with a lot of insight as to the world of Economics and Politics and I respect that. Additionally I'm sure you have a great deal more experience in those disciplines than I do, as has been demonstrated by some of my misplaced answers back to you during all our discussions. I must apologize for those even though it embarrasses me to do so, but then I alone have to shave myself each day, review my own conduct through a gentlemans eyes and ask myself "have I been fair and honest in my dealings with others".
FYI, I seriously don't think you are "Anti-American" any more than I am 'Anti-Dominican". We both have been free with our criticisms of those societies; sometimes with tongue-in-cheek and sometimes with open hostility. I won't say I'll refrain from criticism but will try in future to offer A solution to the problem as I see it.
So, is it Truce, or further hammering at each other simply because we have entirely different backgrounds and view things a little differently?
But, whatever, we simply must cease and desist our manner of opposing each other in these debates. It just isn't right.
PM me, if that's the way you'd rather answer.
Texas Bill
Althugh it hurt me to do so, I had to admit to my own culpability in the ongoing feud which insued in the discussions aforementioned.
Texas Bill
Texas Bill
mondongo said:
At the next DR1 reunion that's how we'll recognise Porfi. The one with the blue face. :cheeky:
If they read Porfi's post and still don't get it, it has to be time to call it a day.
I think Texas Bill's post also merits some praise.
Chiri
Agreed. It all depends on your starting point. As they say in Ireland, when asked how to get from A to B, "Well, I wouldn't start at A if I were you". I think it is almost impossible to change people's starting points.Chirimoya said:
Mondongo,mondongo said:
Do you think the "sovereign bankruptcy" solution (which a Congressional committee rejected a couple of years ago, though perhaps only because the IMF proposed that the IMF also act as the bankruptcy court - defeating the whole purpose by expanding its role) is impracticable for financial or political reasons or both?
Porfio_Rubirosa said:
Porfio, The relationship the IMF has with international Banks and third world countries interferes with free markets and capitalism.
As you have stated, in a free market the IMF would not bail out the the banks that made these loans to the DR. The DR would default, those banks would lose some money, and the DR would lose its credit rating. This is what should be happening. This is how a free market, capitalistic system works. Subsidies and bail-outs are inconsistent with capitalims. This is painfully obvious.
Take a look at Argentina. Last I looked a few months back, Argentina was offering to pay 0.50 on the $1 to the IMF and its banks. That is good. That is how the system is supposed to work when a lender lends money to those who cannot pay.
Allowing "sovereign bankrupcy" would not happen for financial reasons. As you have stated many times, the American public has no idea that they are supporting IMF subsidies. So there really is no political incentive to stop. The IMF and its banks are dug way too deep to stop now.
mondongo said:
Not just that, but the IMF and World Bank are not even suppose to exist today! The entire purpose for the creation of those organization was to collect money to rebuild Europe after the world wars. Um, I don't know about you, but the last time I was in Europe I saw that the infrastructure and the economies there are very developed already! So, why is the IMF and World Bank in existence when they are not suppose to?
But, here is a better question, why is the IMF and World Bank acting as totally different organizations with different priorities compared to the set of purpose they were created under?
I understand that the US has a habit of telling people that something will be temporary and then it ends up lasting to eternity, their Income Tax is a good example. It was a suppose to be a war time tax and yet, war time or not, the Americans still pay ever increasing income taxes! But, that doesn't excuse the fact that the IMF and world bank still roam the earth with their policies that don't work! And why is it that the IMF see's their policies don't work and yet, they try to resolve their mess by putting more of their policies in place!
Who solves a problem by doing more of things that created the problem to start with?! It's like Greg Palast once said "...the IMF is like doctors in the middle ages, when a patient dies the doctors say "oh, he stop bleeding when he had some blood in him..." and so the IMF squeezes the final drop of "blood" out of these poor countries.
It's like Greg Palast once said "the end to world poverty is simple, just remove the bloodsuckers".
Now, lets watch the responses popping up from my comments. Notice one thing, those that are pro-IMF blah blah blah, are first worldlers, those who are against IMF blah blah blah are third worldlers. Gee, I wonder why????