Solar powered inverters

Thebes

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huh???

AZB said:
If solar power was so efficient and cheaper than the grid, everyone would have a system in their house by now.
Let get some things straight:
If a solar panel is rated at 80 watts then it doesn't mean you are getting 80 watts constantly. This is the maximum rating under ideal conditions. You may actually get alot less wattage in normal conditions.
Now if you are charging and using electric at the same time then you are actually diverting the charging current towards usage ex: fans, tv, stereo, computer etc etc. If you are using the power to light up your appliances, electronic equipment then you have very little power to go towards charging your batteries. If you must charge your batteries efficiently then you must disconnect everything from the circuit and let the batteries charge. You need heavy current to charge up the batteries quick (which I don't see it happening).
So may assisment of the solar power system is this: its only good for places like hillbilly's beach house where they only need it to run fans and low wattage bulbs. What you can't run is heavy motors ex: a/c compressors (no a/c) no heavy duty washing machines, no blow dryers, can't run fridge for a long time etc etc. You would need a sinewave inverter (expensive) to run some sensitive motorized equipment. The regular inverter only puts out crude a/c (modified sinewave) so you can damage some sensitive equipment which rely on pure sinewave AC voltage.
So folks if you think you can spend 15-20 k dollars on some solar panel / inverter equipment and expect to run a/c, washing machines (american brand heavy duty) and fridge, you are mistaken.
AZB

In the long run solar may be cheaper. Very few people can afford to buy 20 years of power up front. Solar requires a significant cash outlay that many people don't have, or if they do they prefer a new SUV. This does not mean that solar is more expensive than the grid over a systems lifespan.

It is more efficient to run off of the panels than the batteries. The situation you describe where there is a slower charge is actually a good thing, batteries charge more efficiently at a slow rate than a fast rate. If you run most of your heavy loads during the day you can increase efficiency considerably. You would absolutely NOT want to disconnect your loads to charge your batteries then run that load off the batteries at night, it is exactly the wrong thing to do.

The watt rating on the panel is based upon a standard. It is at rated voltage vs nominal system voltage, so unless you have a Maximuum Power Point Tracking charge controller you will lose about 20% off the top. They do put out less power at, say 8am than at noon, which is part of the reason for using a scientific insolation number in ones calculations. My panels in Taos NM often put out considerably MORE than their rating (I blew a 25 amp fuse on a 18 amp array, repeatedly).

A modified sine wave (NOT SQUARE WAVE) is fine for 98% of electronics. You would need a sine wave inverter for a laser printer, a recording studio, etc. Motors don't care one bit, but do take a momentary surge far greater than their rated load. I've used modified sine wave inverters for 3 years on my solar and never had trouble with a single item. Sine wave inverters are a nice luxery (no bothersome hums), but rarely needed.

I run a small fridge off of my 1kw (2kw surge) inverter without any troubles. I know of quite a few people who run high efficiency washing machines off of a 2.5 to 3.5kw Trace.

15-20k (US of course) is a very doable figure for a home. I KNOW this for a fact, as I know people who install systems for a living and perhaps 10% of my county has solar as their primary electrical. One does sometimes need to change ones habits about leaving lights on, when they do wash (best when its sunny), etc. I don't know what effect A/C would have, it would depend on many variables; I am sure a small A/C could be used in a bedroom without adding too much of a load.

A system with a small efficient fridge, a couple fans, a couple of high use CF bulbs and a TV would cost under $4000.

May I enquire what experience you have had in the field? I have installed three small solar electrical systems personally. I have talked extensively with people who have installed 5kw systems (panels not inverters) and dismantled commercial solar power plants. I don't think you know what you are talking about, many of your comments are factually incorrect. Perhaps you should tell some of my neighbors that their fridges and wash machines aren't actually running like they seem to be.
 

Escott

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Ok, are you saying that Solar inverters are practical for a condominium?

I am not sure I am getting the facts you are trying to present.

How much would it cost to put a comparable unit to a Trace 2.5kw inverter and 4-8 batteries. I also need to know if you are including replacement of batteries in your costing based over 20 years.

The subject is how would a solar powered inverter compare to a standard Trace 2.5kw. Can you give me facts?

Appreciate it.

What country are you from? Does it have a similar Sun effect to the DR?

Have you lived with a solar system of any sort? I have heard of problems with the Water tubes that carry the water.

FWIW: AZB was an engineer before he decided to become a doctor of chiropractic. I don't know what his experience regarding solar is.

Thanks,

Scott
 
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AZB

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I have never used solar system but you don't have to be a MIT engineer to know what it can do and what it can't. The system he is talking about is not used in DR, maybe USA or some other developed country he is talkin g about. The same system that cost 25k dollars there will cost alot more in DR. Then to operate and manage the power, one has to be almost an engineer. There is so much to maintain and keep track of. Most people don't have the knowledge or the experience that this man possesses. Yes, there are system that can even run heavy appliances and maybe even a/c but I was talking about a system that many people in Dr can afford and most people just can't dish out 25-30k dollars on a solar system just like thAT. If it were so simple, believe me, some people would have gone that way a long time ago in DR. In USA you have financing available to put up a complex system that can run everything in the house but most people just don't have such funds here. So a system that would be under the budget of a dominican or an average expat living in DR would be about 10k dollars. This system would run your fans, low wattage bulbs, small water pump and TV and pc. Forget about running a regular sized fridge (at least not for a long time) and don't even connect even a 5000 BTU 120 volts a/c. Of course the more sugar you add, the sweater it gets but I am sure most people in DR can't afford a $25 k system that would certainly cost them around $35k in DR.
Solar system to run a whole house is for those people who have the knowledge and the interest to operate and maintain the system at optimum level. Your average joe blow will have no clue and would certainly blow a fuse here and there and perhaps burn the inverter all together.
AZB
 

Thebes

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Escott, the insolation value (amount of average sun) in the DR is comparable to where I live in Taos. The bigger variable, which I do not know, is the number of sunless days to design the battery bank for; in Taos this is around 5 days and my system was designed for 3, I suspect the DR may have longer cloudy spells but don't know.

Also, Escott, I think we might have some confusion about inverters. The battery bank and inverter (8 batteries and a Trace 2.5kw) that are already in place are suitable for use with a solar electrical system. A solar system will consist of panels and mounts, charge controller and fuses, batteries, and inverter plus some form of backup for abnormally cloudy times.

There are specific inverters sometimes used for solar, called grid tie inverters, which can feed an array back into the grid; obviously these are not suited for use in the DR!

Otherwise the batteries and inverter are the same as needed to run the loads if they were charged from the grid. If the batteries and inverter can't handle A/C now then those same parts won't handle A/C with the addition of solar either. If the inverter handles all loads now, it will with solar too.

You may however, depending upon the loads, want more batteries. If the batteries handle them now they will whether the grid is charging the batteries or solar is. BUT, remember that there will be longer periods without sun than their are without street power; so if you want to handle cloudy days without resorting to backup power you need to have enough batteries to handle the cloudy times.

You would be adding a charge controller (a 65 amp one with meter runs a couple hundred dollars in the US) and panels with appropriate mounts. If you want to run the system almost entirely off of solar, you will need a battery bank that can last at least 5 days without being charged; I think you probably do need more batteries but don't know any specific values for the electrical use in your condos.

I also do not know what the costs of solar equiptment are in the DR, as mentioned by AZB. I have seen people talking about importing a crate of panels and have read that alternative energy products are not (technically) subject to duties on import, but you are in a far better place to know this than I am.
 

Thebes

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Engineers?

AZB, the vast majority of people who I know who have lived with solar power know almost nothing about it. So long as a system is properly designed, it will virtually run itself. For example, Trace charge controllers can be setup to automatically equalize a battery bank without a user even knowing.

The user needs to remember to check the water in the batteries, turn off unused loads, and if there isn't an automatic backup (many Trace inverters will automatically start a genset for backup) they need to know when to back off their electrical usage by looking at a value on a meter. All of these things could be shown to someone in an hour. Many of the Earthships in New Mexico (solar, rain water catchment, high thermal mass buildings) are rented out and I have known tenants who did fine.

Many people who I know build their system by adding onto it over time. I know of people who financed their systems in the US, but most people paid out of pocket. It is expensive, and for many people expense can be an issue. I have neighbors who have nice systems they have added onto over time that can scarcely afford to keep their cars running; one has a system that could handle an A/C and does handle a full sized (sunfrost) fridge.

I know some people who have basic lights and tv systems that are no better off than the average barrio resident, they just got a panel or two when they happened to have the money and scavanged some batteries (some of my neighbors are so poor they dumpster dive their food) because it was their only way to have electicity.
 

Robert

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Time for some prices $$$

This is a copy of an email I received from Alison at http://soluzusa.com/ when we was looking into this.

Santiago Tel: 917-7103 (office) 309-0009 (cell)

These costings EXCLUDE the price of the inverter and batteries.

------------

Here are several options with varying levels of independence from the
grid. The prices here are for panels, control boxes, roof mounting
structure, battery cabinets, and all the essential accessories like
breakers, module connections, fuses, wiring, etc. that's necessary for
installation. Components for installing the entire system--minus
batteries and inverter--are included in this price, but we'll need some
roof details and installation parameters before we can give you our
installation quote.

As we've mentioned already, it looks like your basic consumption runs
around 9kWh/day (assuming 4 computers, 2 fans, and 3 low-consumption
lights for 8 hours each day.)

Option 1: 4.5 kWh/day from solar
Price: US $10,430 + itbis

You'll produce half of your total energy needs. The solar array can
supply 50%, but the other part has to be supplied through the grid by
recharging the batteries. If the apagones come during the full 8 hours
of your work day, you'll still have problems if you don't cut back your
consumption. Assuming that you have grid power for at least a few hours
a day to help recharge your batteries, this system should serve you well
and fill the gaps during the apagones.

Option 2: 6 kWh/day from solar
Price: US $13,590 + itbis

Same description as above, but this time the solar array is supplying
66% of your needs. You'll be able to ride out most long apagones, and,
incidentally, this is the size of system you'd need if you decided to
work only 5 days/week instead of 7. Those extra two days would give the
panels a chance to charge up your batteries while you wouldn't be using
any energy.

Option 3: 9 kWh/day from solar
Price: US $19,750 + itbis

In this case you're supplying all of your office's essential
electricity. I emphasize that this system has been designed in order to
COMPLETELY fill your energy needs (assuming computers + fans + lights 8
hours/day, 7 days/week.) It has a battery bank that will support 3 days
without sun, and will treat your batteries well by never discharging
them to more than 50% of their capacity so they'll last much longer.)

If you're thinking of staying connected to the grid and believe that the
luz will come on at least a little bit, then you might think about
cutting down the size of this system. That said, there is a certain
sigh of relief knowing that you never have to deal with apagones or gas
shortages for your planta.

I'll look forward to hearing back from you, and I'll be happy to clarify
anything I've laid out here.

Allison

------------
 

Tom F.

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I wish I had something to add.

Mr. Mike, Thebes and AZB really cover the issue. I lived with solar for almost a year while living in my old boss's house outside of Sosus in Bella Vista. The only thing I would add is the necessity to have a small generator to to charge batteries just in case there are mutliple days of storms (not much sun), you decide to have a party or guests, or a need for more energy for whatever reason. I also had a sunfrost refrigerator on it's own system. This is a must if you can afford it. I always had something cold, better than those in town.
 

Escott

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Thebes said:
Escott, the insolation value (amount of average sun) in the DR is comparable to where I live in Taos. The bigger variable, which I do not know, is the number of sunless days to design the battery bank for; in Taos this is around 5 days and my system was designed for 3, I suspect the DR may have longer cloudy spells but don't know.

Also, Escott, I think we might have some confusion about inverters. The battery bank and inverter (8 batteries and a Trace 2.5kw) that are already in place are suitable for use with a solar electrical system. A solar system will consist of panels and mounts, charge controller and fuses, batteries, and inverter plus some form of backup for abnormally cloudy times. .

Thanks for bearing with me here. We have NOTHING in place. We have an 80kw Diesel Generator that provides us power 24/7 but is running 20-22 hours a day these days. We have no problems running it hard and havent had any major breakdowns because of this but it is a budget problem. We will run out of money because of purchasing deisel and still being billed at 50% plus from Edenorte.

Anything we do from here on will be all new hence the need for knowledge to give the individual owners from the board of directors. This inverter cost will be borne by each condo with the exception of a major inverter system to run the lights/water pumps and some electric for the office which will be borne by the community as a whole. We are NOT interested in Solar for the complex but one owner said she prefered solar and would pay for it opposed to standard inverter system by Trace. However, I doubt that the big talk will follow a big bucks quote and that this is may be a waste of time in any case.

I need to get and compare costs for a "Solar inverter system" to a "Trace 2.4k System".

Personally I hope that when the new government gets into office there will be at least some relief granted to our pockets and not need the huge amounts of Gas/oil we are using now but you have to be prepared for total breakdown and have a plan in place.

Maybe this helps to better explain to me if this is a practical solution to offer the other owners. Please remember that we will go back to the 100% generator/street power deal when it stabilizes.

Thebes said:
There are specific inverters sometimes used for solar, called grid tie inverters, which can feed an array back into the grid; obviously these are not suited for use in the DR!

Otherwise the batteries and inverter are the same as needed to run the loads if they were charged from the grid. If the batteries and inverter can't handle A/C now then those same parts won't handle A/C with the addition of solar either. If the inverter handles all loads now, it will with solar too.

You may however, depending upon the loads, want more batteries. If the batteries handle them now they will whether the grid is charging the batteries or solar is. BUT, remember that there will be longer periods without sun than their are without street power; so if you want to handle cloudy days without resorting to backup power you need to have enough batteries to handle the cloudy times.

You would be adding a charge controller (a 65 amp one with meter runs a couple hundred dollars in the US) and panels with appropriate mounts. If you want to run the system almost entirely off of solar, you will need a battery bank that can last at least 5 days without being charged; I think you probably do need more batteries but don't know any specific values for the electrical use in your condos.

I also do not know what the costs of solar equiptment are in the DR, as mentioned by AZB. I have seen people talking about importing a crate of panels and have read that alternative energy products are not (technically) subject to duties on import, but you are in a far better place to know this than I am.
I think I am starting to get this. You put the same system in place but you have an added cost for the solar end of the deal? What would be the solar end cost to charge the batteries at the same rate it would charge from street power or from generator power.

Thanks,
Scott
 

Ken

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My question in an earlier post still hasn't been answered. If you put the solar panels on the roof of a 3-story building, how do you get the energy to the user in a ground floor apartment and how much energy is lost enroute? The panels are on the roof because that is the only place where there is the possibility of the 5-6 hours of direct sun a day that have been mentioned in this thread.
 

Robert

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Ken said:
My question in an earlier post still hasn't been answered. If you put the solar panels on the roof of a 3-story building, how do you get the energy to the user in a ground floor apartment and how much energy is lost enroute? The panels are on the roof because that is the only place where there is the possibility of the 5-6 hours of direct sun a day that have been mentioned in this thread.

I guess that depends on many factors. Cable type, crimp type, run length etc etc etc. I'm sure the cable losses would be minimal if you use good quality cable, combined with a professional installation.
 

Tom F.

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You would use the wire size (gauge) for whatever distance you need to go. There is a point where it maybe beneficial to connect your array to go 24v. into your controller (inverter). I would guess you are talking about 75ft, which shouldn't be a problem. There are charts which the solar panel manufactures can provide you. Probably even the inverter guys could give you this info.

I think it was Thebes you explained very well how to size your system if you plan on going solar. Daily vs. weekend use, all year or a couple months a year, If you take the frig and water heater on another system, have 24v ceiling fans, use dc lighting, limit your inverter use to a small washing machine and electronics, and spot uses for other small appliances 300-500 watts would be plenty. There are people who installed 200 watts and were fine with that. It really depends on your needs.

The panels are US$6-7 a watt and an installed system is usually close to US$10 a watt. With a small backup generator you can reduce the size of the solar part of system to handle the average day.

Kyocera is a Japanese owned company, not US.
 
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MrMike

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Robert said:
I guess that depends on many factors. Cable type, crimp type, run length etc etc etc. I'm sure the cable losses would be minimal if you use good quality cable, combined with a professional installation.

The loss would be huge if we are talking about battery cables, since the voltage is low the amperage is huge. This produces alot of heat so the cables have to be very thick and expensive, the sheer mass of copper the current is running through absorbs a good deal of power. You would want the inverter as close as possible to the panel array (10 feet of cable for each pole as an absolute maximum, with 3 feet being the ideal) Once this is done, the cable length between the inverter and the AC load is much less critical.

In the case of a 3 story apartment building, it would probably be recommendable to construct a small cinder-block shed in a corner of the roof (like the casitas they use for dogs and generators) in order to secure the inverters and batteries.

disclaimer:
I am talking about a system where you want to charge an 8 battery bank in 1 day, in which case you would be charging at around 100 amps. For smaller systems, this does not necessarily apply - although 3 stories is a long way for a 12 or 24 volt DC bank of batteries or solar panels. Regardless of the scale of the installation it's going to be very inneficient, just maybe not impossible in all cases.
 
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Ken

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MrMike, if everything on the roof, then how does the electricty get to the apartments? Does the building have to be rewired, or do you connect to the existing electrical system in some way?
 

MrMike

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Ken said:
MrMike, if everything on the roof, then how does the electricty get to the apartments? Does the building have to be rewired, or do you connect to the existing electrical system in some way?

The AC power can run from the Inverter to the apartment, it's the DC power from the batteries or the solar panels that can't make the trip. Yes, there will be some degree of rewiring, but not the internal wiring of the apartment itelf, just some minor rearranging of the breaker panel.
 

Thebes

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A longer wire run from panels to batteries and charge controller is now often done with higher voltage panel arrays (36v, 72v, 96v nominal) and then stepped down to lower voltage battery banks by a MPPT charge controller. It would depend upon the amperage and voltage of the array, but low voltage high amperage arrays need very heavy cabling; I would guess we are talking welding cable sizes for a 50 amp array at 75 ft and 12v. If I were doing it, I would prefer this to having the batteries at the roof; a MPPT charge controller will also increase system efficiency in lower charge conditions.

Escott, yes the system is basically the same from the batteries to the user, the difference is the charging. I am not in a position to know DR prices, but the $10 a watt could well be the case, in the US its around $4-5 at wholesale prices without including batteries and inverter- about $3 a watt for wholesale panels in the States. Just figure the amount of power the person needs per day (on average) and multiply by cost and you will have a reasonable estimate.

As a side note, if a condo complex were to impliment a complex wide system there would be savings from those who did not use as much as their share of the system put out, these people would vary each day. One would need to impliment a solution to prevent people from using more than was fair to others. On a larger scale, there could be a cost savings I would estimate at 20-50% depending upon condo occupancy. It doesn't sound viable for this situation though, but might be of interest to others in the future. Also, there is a tourism market for places which are environmentally friendly, some resorts market soley to this niche and charge quite a premium.
 

gmiller261

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Pricing is a little confusing

Robert got quotes from SOLUZUSA.

Option 2: 6 kWh/day from solar
Price: US $13,590 + itbis

In the US you can get solar panels, as Thebes said, from $3-$4 dollars a watt in quantity.

Using 5 hours of sunlight the 6kWh/day is a 1.2kW solar array. That equates to $10.83 per watt. +itbis.

Discounting frames, boxes and wiring you are still talking a 200% - 300% markup. That's insane, in thinking that installers are making money on the panels and installation costs are 200-300% hardware costs.

Here is a > 4000 watt solar panel array for $20,000.00. Comes with two (2) inverter also.

http://www.partsonsale.com/calrebate3.html

So a 4000 watt system in the DR would cost over $40,000.00 without inverters. No that's a costly labor pool or import duties. Am I missing something?

I would ask SoluzUSA to breakdown that number and find out where the cost really is.
 

MrMike

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Shipping, tarriffs, and the high cost of stocking parts that don't sell very quickly all contribute to the markup - all the same I will be working to bring the market prices down, this will mean buying solar panels iin China, or maybe just solar cells for local assembly.
 

Tom F.

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The markup is closer to 30 - 40% after you factor in all the costs. This is an installed system, not just the panels. The guarantee is easier to honor when you buy in country. Mr. Mike is correct about the tariffs, shipping and high cost of running an inventory keep prices higher in the DR. I have seen the price of solar panels per watt change very little over the last 15 years. Concentrators, amorphus and other ideas have not brought prices down as expected. The efficiency of the cells is also not improving as being another way to bring prices down.

Tecsol/Meteoro tried some local assembly on some Spanish modules in the late 90's. Anyone know if they are still doing this?

Believe me, there is enough competition in the country to keep prices within a reasonable range. Service, and the type of people you deal with are important to me. The problem comes when the government comes into communities paying for service, and drops in free systems to get votes.
 

gmiller261

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Shipping, tarriffs

Can anyone quantify shipping, tariffs figures? USA to DR (POP). I would purchase 10 modules if reasonable. Will the DR-FTA agreement help?

ASE-300-DGF/50, 315 Watt Solar Panel

The World's single most powerful solar panel is also the most reliable. Prices start at $4.03 a watt and come in cases of 20 modules. $25,400.00

Dimensions and Weights
Length: 74.5"/1892.3 mm
Width: 50.5"/1282.7 mm
Weight: 107 (+/- 5 lbs)/46.6 (+/- 2 kg)
Area: 26.13 ft sq/ 2.43 sq meters
 

MrMike

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Someone brought me a panel to evaluate for resale, but his price is way too high. He wants 15,000 pesos for a 50 watt panel with controller/optimizer unit wholesale. (he did not supply the control unit for evaluation) He claims this is a good price because he has retailers selling these for 23,000 pesos and up. I would want to sell retail at around 15,000 or less if possible so I don't think I will be doing business with him - besides the fact that he seems like a shady character and I am forced to deal with enough of those as it is.

The panel has no markings on it to specify country of origin, and he won't tell me where it is made. (there are some labels in Spanish on it, so I think it is of Dominican Assembly)

Oh yeah, one thing he did mention is that permission can be obtained to import solar equipment duty free. I don't know who you have to sleep with, or what other restrictions apply but apparently there are some incentives being offered by the government to encourage alternative energy.