Striking increase in Haitian students in Dominican public schools

[LindseyKaufman]

This really does not answer my question about your post " There have also been numerous articles in the news here that illegal Haitian kids have made already crowded classrooms even worse." Maybe Bob or Lindsey will provide their thoughts/opinions on this as this is their profession.

I really cannot give an informed answer. There are not too many Haitians in Jamao. Those who are here are excelente employees in the construction business and dairy farming. Yes, the children go to school. Some even in my little school and the other preschools in Jamao.

I can only speak for Jamao, but it appesrs that the Ministry of Education prefers to load up classrooms, Haitians or not.

And actually, the teaching/learning here could not get much worse, so truly, it makes no difference.

 

[johne]

Is there any proof that Dominican children are suffering because of this? I myself do not like to comment on the "illegal" issue but I do believe children deserve an education regardless of their status. Everyone (mostly) posts "illegals need to be deported, etc.." but that does not happen overnight. I would rather the child be in school than roaming the streets.

There is a 30 page report on this at: Immigration Displacement and Education in Dominican Republic and inclusion of Haitians .I am using a tablet now and don't know how to send link to DR1 but the address of Unes doc.Unesco.org

 

[keepcoming]

There is a 30 page report on this at: Immigration Displacement and Education in Dominican Republic and inclusion of Haitians .I am using a tablet now and don't know how to send link to DR1 but the address of Unes doc.Unesco.org

So, does this report indicate that illegal Haitian children have made the classrooms worse? Sorry, but the report won't open for me. But I did find this interesting: https://elnacional.com.do/minerd-en...pero-al-parecer-solo-preocupan-los-haitianos/

 

[cavok]

This really does not answer my question about your post " There have also been numerous articles in the news here that illegal Haitian kids have made already crowded classrooms even worse." Maybe Bob or Lindsey will provide their thoughts/opinions on this as this is their profession.

What's so difficult to understand that overcrowded schools are not conducive to a good education? Also, the overcrowding negatively impacts the Haitian students just as much as the Dominican students. There have been articles in the local news about the overcrowding. Here's one:

Duartiano advierte por sobrepoblación haitiana en escuelas

“Se deberían implementar calendarios educativos para esos niños y niñas que necesitan educación y no puede ser negada; sin embargo, no se pueden ocupar los espacios de los estudiantes dominicanos”.

listindiario-com.translate.goog

 

[bob saunders]

This really does not answer my question about your post " There have also been numerous articles in the news here that illegal Haitian kids have made already crowded classrooms even worse." Maybe Bob or Lindsey will provide their thoughts/opinions on this as this is their profession.

why do you need an article or link to verify something that is common sense. If the demand for limited resources is not met, then the system will not function properly. Imagine a teacher that has a hard time teaching Dominican children how to read.... etc., now having ten more kids, all Haitian, that barely speak Spanish added to her class of thirty Dominicans.

 

[keepcoming]

My point is rather simple, I do not believe that "illegal" Haitian children are causing classrooms to be worse. Cavok stated that there are "numerous" articles that state this. I am interested in seeing some of the numerous articles that show this. Yes, Bob I know common sense, do you? Because "illegal" Haitian children cannot be the main cause for classrooms to be worse. Now have I explained myself better? Could it be that the teachers are not equipped, the school system is not equipped, etc... I just can't see where saying "illegal" Haitian children make the classrooms worse, that is too much of a generalization. Actually, Lindseys response explained it much better.

 

[cavok]

My point is rather simple, I do not believe that "illegal" Haitian children are causing classrooms to be worse. Cavok stated that there are "numerous" articles that state this. I am interested in seeing some of the numerous articles that show this. Yes, Bob I know common sense, do you? Because "illegal" Haitian children cannot be the main cause for classrooms to be worse. Now have I explained myself better? Could it be that the teachers are not equipped, the school system is not equipped, etc...

It's really simple. If you have a crowded classroom to begin with, which many are here in the DR, more can only make the situation worse, especially if the teacher is now dealing with a child that doesn't speak the language well and is probably even worse educated than the Dominican children in the class. Everyone ends up suffering. Some would call that "equity" though.

 

[keepcoming]

It's really simple. If you have a crowded classroom to begin with, which many are here in the DR, more can only make the situation worse, especially if the teacher is now dealing with a child that doesn't speak the language well and is probably even worse educated than the Dominican children in the class. Everyone ends up suffering. Some would call that "equity" though.

And your post has a valid point. I am just saying making a statement that "illegal" Haitian children are making classrooms worse is more of a generalization then fact. Is it easy, probably not but worse, not so sure. Are there instances where there are "legal" Haitian children in the class but do not really speak the language (Spanish) that well? Clearly there are many reasons the education system in the DR has many issues.

 

[bob saunders]

And your post has a valid point. I am just saying making a statement that "illegal" Haitian children are making classrooms worse is more of a generalization then fact. Is it easy, probably not but worse, not so sure. Are there instances where there are "legal" Haitian children in the class but do not really speak the language (Spanish) that well? Clearly there are many reasons the education system in the DR has many issues.

Why do you think it wouldn't make classrooms worse? https://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/class-size/#:~:text=GreatSchools publishes

 

[chico bill]

There can be no debate that overcrowding means less time a teacher can interact with each student or even learn where an individual student could be deficient. That's undebatable.

One teacher can't maintain control of the classroom. When I was in school spit-wads or rubber bands were how we annoyed people when the teachers back was turned. I remember one fellow student throwing a paper airplane that flew and stuck into the hair on the side of the substitute teacher's head - that set her off.

But from what I see there is no shortage of pregnant Dominicans also helping over crowd the schools.

Solution of course is to build more schools, and I see some being built nearby but as long as you staff it with poor quality and disinterested teachers, even less crowded schools won't give children a decent education.

This is why private schools do well in DR.

The parents know the public schools are little more than walled babysitting services. But only those with money are able to get their children help in private schools. And I see many Haitians working their tails off also putting their children in private schools too. I know several Haitians doing that.

Overcrowded schools & alternate private schools for wealthier families is a world wide phenomenon, so at least DR is on par in that regard.

 

[josh2203]

I hope I have missed something, as while the thread is indeed about the rapid increase of Haitian students in the DR public schools, I have yet to see any reference that all would be of illegals? Another point, perhaps I'm missing something and I'm not entirely sure how this works as I have never dealt with a public school in the DR, so if the parent(s) of a Haitian student are illegal, so without any papers I assume, the child can still be enrolled and if so, with their Haitian documents? And no documents at all needed from the parents? And while I agree that education is a very profound right in a sense and that the kids did not decide to be illegals, their parents did, the public schools still have to accept every kid that comes through their doors as a student, even if lacking documents?

 

[josh2203]

Overcrowded schools & alternate private schools for wealthier families is a world wide phenomenon, so at least DR is on par in that regard.

I know what you mean but just to clarify that at least in parts of Europe private schools either hardly exist (they do, but there aren't many and hardly anyone goes), or even further, they do exist but nobody really even knows about them. I know in the UK, the Americas and perhaps Asia they are a bigger thing though.

For schools being overcrowded, having gone to school in the EU, when I went, things were in fact bad. It was normal for me to be in a class of 30 students. I am surprised that currently the class is "full" if they have close to 15 students. Where our kids go, the class sizes are 8 and 14 students respectively. Public schools.

 

[LindseyKaufman]

I know what you mean but just to clarify that at least in parts of Europe private schools either hardly exist (they do, but there aren't many and hardly anyone goes), or even further, they do exist but nobody really even knows about them. I know in the UK, the Americas and perhaps Asia they are a bigger thing though.

For schools being overcrowded, having gone to school in the EU, when I went, things were in fact bad. It was normal for me to be in a class of 30 students. I am surprised that currently the class is "full" if they have close to 15 students. Where our kids go, the class sizes are 8 and 14 students respectively. Public schools.

Josh- teaching methods have changed since years ago when we went to school. And social norms have changed, too. Education was more or less mass produced…..a lesson was taught to all. The bright kids got it. The slower kids didn’t, but the teacher moved on to the next lesson.

Now teachers are supposed to teach to the child, instead of teaching the material. Current thinking is that a good teacher will individualize all lessons to meet every child’s needs and development level.

To teach this way, it is impossible to have classes with 30 students.

Now this is veering off topic but it is touching on one of the many problems in education here. Teachers attend workshops where they are taught how to individualize and are expected to do so. But the classrooms of many (here in Jamao anyway) have 30-35 students. In addition, classrooms are not equipped with the materials necessary to implement the methods taught in the workshops. So teachers teach to the group without any differentiation. The smart kids get it and the slower ones will always lag behind. And that is the way it is.

Tying this together with the point about Haitian children causing overcrowding in schools….it is a biased conclusion. I could say the slower learners are causing the problem because either they make the teacher’s results look bad or are causing the teacher to move slower introducing materials and holding up the smart kids. Likewise, I could say (and have heard this complaint several times from teachers) the smart children are causing the problem because they become bored and begin to cause problems or make more demands on the teacher.

So how one views the “overcrowding” depends on which lens is used to view the problem.

 

[johne]

Comparing class size is ONE aspect of quality education and it happens to be the subject matter of this OP.
However, class size is NOT what the situation is with Haitians. As you all know it goes WAY beyond the problem.
Among which are: language, culture, level of ability not tested, immunization not proven, at home parent involvement, community involvement,family background subject to legal questions,costs to DR government, sharing group study and more.

Political right movements have now focused on illegal immigration.US, Europe, are in the fore front and it will be taught in school. It won't be very comfortable sitting in a classroom packed with an overflow of Haitians. Luis will not be comfortable going the wrong way down a one way street.

 

[josh2203]

Josh- teaching methods have changed since years ago when we went to school. And social norms have changed, too. Education was more or less mass produced…..a lesson was taught to all. The bright kids got it. The slower kids didn’t, but the teacher moved on to the next lesson.

Now teachers are supposed to teach to the child, instead of teaching the material. Current thinking is that a good teacher will individualize all lessons to meet every child’s needs and development level.

To teach this way, it is impossible to have classes with 30 students.

Yep, I realize this. It's really amazing the attention they get nowadays. Even if there was a fight in the school in my childhood, parents were only informed when someone almost died (I'm kidding), but today for every little thing tons of messages and everything. Parents are really made to participate.

 

[malko]

The article--- the dr1 version, I didn't go to the original ---- doesn't say anything about illegals.

I was at DGM yesterday renewing residency. Overwhelming majority of Haitians. Seems Haitians took the hint and got their residency.
Stands to reason that once you have your residency in hand, you send your kids to school.

Also the article says it strains the school resources, paid by Dominican's taxes.
Well, Haitians who get residency are 1) paying for said residency and 2) are subject to Dominican taxes ( if they are above the threshold).
Right ?

 

[drstock]

Also, the overcrowding negatively impacts the Haitian students just as much as the Dominican students.

I'm sure it does, but the education they would receive would be none if they were deported to many parts of Haiti. I think it's just wrong to deprive any child of an education.

 

[josh2203]

The article--- the dr1 version, I didn't go to the original ---- doesn't say anything about illegals.

As said above, I checked the original news article as well, and unless I terribly overlooked something, could not spot anything on illegals either.

 

[windeguy]

My point is rather simple, I do not believe that "illegal" Haitian children are causing classrooms to be worse. Cavok stated that there are "numerous" articles that state this. I am interested in seeing some of the numerous articles that show this. Yes, Bob I know common sense, do you? Because "illegal" Haitian children cannot be the main cause for classrooms to be worse. Now have I explained myself better? Could it be that the teachers are not equipped, the school system is not equipped, etc... I just can't see where saying "illegal" Haitian children make the classrooms worse, that is too much of a generalization. Actually, Lindseys response explained it much better.

You could be right. Lindsey already pointed out that the teaching is so bad already that it could not get worse. I guess any studies would be pointless if there is already no education being done.

 

[El Hijo de Manolo]

My point is rather simple, I do not believe that "illegal" Haitian children are causing classrooms to be worse. Cavok stated that there are "numerous" articles that state this. I am interested in seeing some of the numerous articles that show this. Yes, Bob I know common sense, do you? Because "illegal" Haitian children cannot be the main cause for classrooms to be worse. Now have I explained myself better? Could it be that the teachers are not equipped, the school system is not equipped, etc... I just can't see where saying "illegal" Haitian children make the classrooms worse, that is too much of a generalization. Actually, Lindseys response explained it much better.

I have been on the inside of this for years. There are many threads on this issue. The public school system is a bureaucratic cesspool filled with incompetent funcionarios, administrators and teachers. The issues are so numerous it will take decades of reform to pull out of this. The next main issue is they cant put out a clear, functional curriculum. They spend their time and money putting incompetent teachers through endless workshops that yield zero results for students. Class schedules suffer and are horrifically inconsistent. School is basically 3.5 day/week deal as a result. The schools participate in overreach also with respect to students' outside/personal/family lives. Constantly lecturing parents as if they were students. It's so classic in terms of they can't get their own house in order but they slime themselves into the personal lives of students and their families.

The next issue is that there is this stunning lack of respect from the current student generation. A fatherless society of young males that feel the female is a subservient, lower social class. They bring drugs and white arms into the schools, rip the teachers new ones, verbally abuse others and fight like animals. The incompetent teachers and administrators are not prepared nor trained properly to remediate these situations and basically the whole dynamic runs on fear.

The issue is far from illegal Haitian kids in the schools. That's simply one (of many) of the narratives used to deflect from the incompetent, corrupt actors that run public education.