One that has not mixed with other inhabitants. In other words Tainos copulating with Tainos only and not with inhabitants of African or European background. Is that clear enough.
Tainos in the DR?
One that has not mixed with other inhabitants. In other words Tainos copulating with Tainos only and not with inhabitants of African or European background. Is that clear enough.
I believe Baracutay was pretty clear on his answer to that. There are no inhabitants of the Dominican Republic that are pure anything, all have mixed DNA. On the island of Dominica there are Indians that are said to be pure, but I'm sure blood analysis would prove different.
I agree with that possibility in the DR. My question to you in the case of Canada are there any indigenous inhabitants that did not intermarry and thus are for lack of a better term "pure blood" in existence today?
Exxtol wrote:
I have never debated that "words and cultural practices he claimed that are Taino in origin are actually African in origin." If you find any such statement that directly corroborates your supposed recollection I stand corrected.
I stand corrected, I mistakenly lumped you in with some other posters.
The argument has never been about the Taino cultural contribution--it has always been about the amount of Taino blood within the Dominican population. In fact, IMO I find the DR government and several views of dominican identity, to be much more open to the recognition and acknowledgement of Taino contribution to Dominican culture in general.
This is not exactly true, there has been enough discussion about word usage and cultural practices as well.
If you're going to quote me, qualify my statements correctly.
"closer to pure Taino bloodline; however in comparison to the overwhelmingly mixed African & European majorirty, there numbers are miniscule."
FYI, when Baracutei says the study show 23% of the population has Taino blood, this is in comparision to all other contributors since by nature of the definition of "100%". Therefore, "mininuscule" is not the appropriate word to describe the Taino conbtribution to the bloodline compared to other contributors - this is basic statistics.
Secondly, you're basing your "facts" off of one study, that as of yet has not been completed, and imo suffers from statistical biases--good for you. I am not so easily swayed.
Why aren't you so easily swayed by facts? FYI, your indifference appears suspect, being that you are openly afrocentrist.
I am an afrocentrist because I side with Dominican literature that states otherwise? Grow up Chip, you don't see me calling you a "Tainocentrist". I have never claimed to be one so please do not reference me as such.
I think it is apparent that you are an afrocentrist. As for me being a Tainocentrist, I am not. Remember, I have no Taino blood. I am scientist(engineer) and a amateur cultural anthropologist and historian - I am only interested in the facts and not any type of manipulation of them. I started this thread because I was completely astounded by the apparent indian faces one encounters here in the cibao region almost on a daily basis. I am also well experienced with the Indian mixed and pure peoples as I spent many years at Ft Bragg and Clemson, which are very close to the home of the Lumbee and Cherokee Indians of NC, respectively. Many have vigorously disputed this Taino component by trying to explain it away, yet now we now have cold hard facts to back this up. As I have stated before I understand how the first disninformation about the tainos got started(racism) and has persisted to this day becasue of ignorance. I don't still completely understand why many afrocentrists on this board are so up in arms about recognizing the Taino component to this society. I suppose the Taino recognition would get in the way of the Dominicans "discovery" and "embrace" of their African heritage. Now to think of it this is a very plausible cause and in fact this theme is discussed quite frequently on the many forums, etc I have visited. The only problem with this "theory/hope", is that the Spanish(and now Taino) components will never go away nor be ignored. Furthermore, while many may discount the African component, I for my part haven't. I have discussed the African contributions to Dominican Spanish and have frequently discussed African heritage with the locals here in the DR.
I have never debated that "words and cultural practices he claimed that are Taino in origin are actually African in origin." If you find any such statement that directly corroborates your supposed recollection I stand corrected.
I stand corrected, I mistakenly lumped you in with some other posters.
The argument has never been about the Taino cultural contribution--it has always been about the amount of Taino blood within the Dominican population. In fact, IMO I find the DR government and several views of dominican identity, to be much more open to the recognition and acknowledgement of Taino contribution to Dominican culture in general.
This is not exactly true, there has been enough discussion about word usage and cultural practices as well.
If you're going to quote me, qualify my statements correctly.
"closer to pure Taino bloodline; however in comparison to the overwhelmingly mixed African & European majorirty, there numbers are miniscule."
FYI, when Baracutei says the study show 23% of the population has Taino blood, this is in comparision to all other contributors since by nature of the definition of "100%". Therefore, "mininuscule" is not the appropriate word to describe the Taino conbtribution to the bloodline compared to other contributors - this is basic statistics.
Secondly, you're basing your "facts" off of one study, that as of yet has not been completed, and imo suffers from statistical biases--good for you. I am not so easily swayed.
Why aren't you so easily swayed by facts? FYI, your indifference appears suspect, being that you are openly afrocentrist.
I am an afrocentrist because I side with Dominican literature that states otherwise? Grow up Chip, you don't see me calling you a "Tainocentrist". I have never claimed to be one so please do not reference me as such.
I think it is apparent that you are an afrocentrist. As for me being a Tainocentrist, I am not. Remember, I have no Taino blood. I am scientist(engineer) and a amateur cultural anthropologist and historian - I am only interested in the facts and not any type of manipulation of them. I started this thread because I was completely astounded by the apparent indian faces one encounters here in the cibao region almost on a daily basis. I am also well experienced with the Indian mixed and pure peoples as I spent many years at Ft Bragg and Clemson, which are very close to the home of the Lumbee and Cherokee Indians of NC, respectively. Many have vigorously disputed this Taino component by trying to explain it away, yet now we now have cold hard facts to back this up. As I have stated before I understand how the first disninformation about the tainos got started(racism) and has persisted to this day becasue of ignorance. I don't still completely understand why many afrocentrists on this board are so up in arms about recognizing the Taino component to this society. I suppose the Taino recognition would get in the way of the Dominicans "discovery" and "embrace" of their African heritage. Now to think of it this is a very plausible cause and in fact this theme is discussed quite frequently on the many forums, etc I have visited. The only problem with this "theory/hope", is that the Spanish(and now Taino) components will never go away nor be ignored. Furthermore, while many may discount the African component, I for my part haven't. I have discussed the African contributions to Dominican Spanish and have frequently discussed African heritage with the locals here in the DR.
It would be irresponsible of me to make a statememt regarding whether or not there are "Full blooded Indians" in the DR, isolated or otherwise.
But as I stated earlier the scope of this particular mtDNA analysis is not to search for or identify purity. For example the samples sequenced that had African Haplogroups were of mixed origin as well. But to say that they are more so or less so African because of the haplogroup or apprent admixture is not within the scope of the study.
Is it possible that there are Dominicans who are "full blooded Indians"? Who knows, Are there pure white people in the DR? Who knows for sure.
What I can say is that given the facts that there are still many isolated communities it stands to reason that maybe some of these might have less admixture than say people living in larger cities. This goes for African, Indian and Spanish as well.
Baracutei
Well Baracutay is not pretty clear on this, and correctly so as someone dealing with scientific evidence must be....
I would say yes because Canada has had Europeans in a large parts of the west and north for less than 100 years. Many Inuit and northern Cree...etc are probable pure indigenous.
Secondly, you're basing your "facts" off of one study, that as of yet has not been completed, and imo suffers from statistical biases--good for you. I am not so easily swayed.
I am an afrocentrist because I side with Dominican literature that states otherwise? Grow up Chip, you don't see me calling you a "Tainocentrist". I have never claimed to be one so please do not reference me as such.
Remember, no room for the "race card" on this board.
--Exxtol
Exxtol,
Two things:
(1) This mtDNA study is one of 4 that have actually been done in the DR. The first one was in 1948 and was based on A-B-O blood groups in the DR. This study was done by Dr. Jose de Jesus Alvarez.The study showed then, Native Americans (N-C-South America) having an overwhelming (90 percent) blood type O+ .Africans and Europeans each have 35-40 percent blood type o+ then it stands to reason that if Dominicans were "mullato" then blood type O+ cannot be higher than it is amongst Africans or Europeans. Dr. Alvarez's study showed Dominicans coming in at around 68 percent blood type O+. In other words there was somthing hidden in the average Dominican that made him Other than mullato, perhaps triracial?
A DNA study was conducted in 2003 and this was also showed high levels of Indigenous results but since it was small it was put aside until the current study could be funded. Also FamilytytreeDNA has on file Dominicans that have submmitted samples, most for genealogical purposes and of these roughly half also showed Indian ancestry.
(2) As for Dominican Literature, my opinion is that racial designation such as Mestizo, mulato and grifo/sambo are vague and non-static. These racial classifacations have never been set in stone. I leave you with this:
In any case I discovered that Native Americans had been legally defined as mulattoes in Virginia in 1705, without having any African ancestry. Thus I knew that the dictionaries were wrong and that there was a lot that was hidden away from view by the way most authors had written about the Southern United States, about slavery, and about colored people. I later discovered also, that the same thing was true as regards the Caribbean, Brazil and much more of the rest of the Americas. Quote from page 2.
The term Mestizo does not appear in the Nebrija dictionaries o c.1495 or 1520 although mezcla, mesturar and related words are included. Mestico also is not a word found in Santa Rosa de Virterbo?s study of medieval Portuguese language. Its first known appearance is in Cordoso?s Portuguese dictionary (1560?s Nearly 68 years after contact) when it is equated with Latin Ibira (corrected to Hybris, hybrida) in the 1643 edition. Quote from page 125
Surprisingly such an important term as ?mulatto? seems never to have been systematically studied historically. This is, as we shall see, a sad example of scholarly oversight since the term mulatto, like most racial terms, has not had a static or single meaning. We have already seen that mulatto in the sixteenth century was treated as being the equivalent of ?hybrid? and thus applicable to many kinds of persons. It is necessary to be more precise, however, in terms of the changing meanings of this word. Quote from page 131 ?Africans and Native Americans, The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black Peoples? by Jack D. Forbes, Illini Books edition 1993
Honestly I no longer understand what clarity is! LOL I thought I was being as clear.
Simple, simple simple. Native, Spanish or African descent via mtDNA is not based on purtiy. The facts are- There are many many people of African descent on the island. There are also people or Spanish descent. And now we know for a fact that there is a substantial amount of Native American mtDNA as well. So what is the agenda? That perhaps its time to stop demonizing or lionizing the Indian and give the indian his proper place in history. Native contribution is not miniscule or non-existant. It is very real and now easily verifiable.
Baracutei
BBC has an interesting summary of recent research:
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Study unlocks Latin American past
'There is a clear genetic signature," explained lead author Andres Luiz-Linares from University College London. "The initial mixing occurred predominately between immigrant and European men and native and African women."
The researchers carried out genome-wide analyses in 13 mestizo populations sampled from 7 countries across the region. The research is here:
PLoS Genetics: Geographic Patterns of Genome Admixture in Latin American Mestizos
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Study unlocks Latin American past
'There is a clear genetic signature," explained lead author Andres Luiz-Linares from University College London. "The initial mixing occurred predominately between immigrant and European men and native and African women."
The researchers carried out genome-wide analyses in 13 mestizo populations sampled from 7 countries across the region. The research is here:
PLoS Genetics: Geographic Patterns of Genome Admixture in Latin American Mestizos
This is no clearer than saying I am of Native American descent and European descent. In reality both of my parents are 1/8 Cherokee, (which is probably a more substantial, native, genetic contribution to my dna than most (not all) Dominicans), and my great-grandmother on my father's side was half-white--but I am still of predominantly African ancestry.
My problem is you seem to rely on ambiguity to push a moot point. I don't think anyone disputes the fact that, yes, the Taino cultural prescence and to a smaller extent the genetic contribution to DR society is undeniable. You have proven this through vocabulary, history etc. However, where I seem to get lost is your use of the word, "substantial", which you have since never qualified. Again, I'm not arguing culture here, or the equally vague "contribution", but simple genetics.
The agenda and marginalization of the "indian" in the DR does not exist as it does in Peru, Mexico, Ecuador, etc....because since the DR's conception as a nation (not Hispaniola) there never was a substantial, visible, purely, "indigenous", population, as in Peru, Mexico, Ecuador, etc.
In any event, rather than get stuck in a tit for tat I'll leave it at that. But I do welcome your feedback and again can only respect your passion for what you do.
Regards,
Exxtol
Rather, the Tainos ceased to "exist" because of their marginaliztion from the very beginning, something that eventually can happen to any people being outnumbered by immigrants. Furthermore, what with the new dna evidence establishing the SIGNIFICANT amount of Taino blood still evident in the current population we can only assume that they were outright killed or ostracized from the very beginning, to the point where they had to decide to assimilate or die. I'd say this is a lot more severe than "marginilization" for sure.
Also, since you it appears you won't answer my questions I posted, will you finally admit that the genetic contribution is a whole lot more than miniscule?
Did not see your post earlier.
That has never been my point of contention.
FYI, Baracutei also admits that mtDNA cannot quantify the amount of Taino blood in the Dominican population--meaning (if one is to accept the study as reliable and valid) that 23% of the population could have a "pure" or mixed Taino ancestor 6,7,8, or even 9 generations removed and still be of "Taino descent" according to mtDNA testing.
If I am not mistaken certain genome testing can quantify one's "racial" dna (though its accuracy is debatable); however, this was not used in this study.
I've asked you to not name me as such because I am not one. Your insistence on the term only highlights your ignorance. Furthermore, I grow tired of the incessant juxtaposition of "Afrocentrism" with suspicion, deviance, agenda setting, and that because I am black and my views are not analogous to yours I am somehow inexorably linked to an "Afrocentric movement".
Every bit of this statement troubles me. But sense you appear to have trouble reading let me copy and paste from above:
I grow tired of the incessant juxtaposition of "Afrocentrism" with suspicion, deviance, agenda setting, and that because I am black and my views are not analogous to yours I am somehow inexorably linked to an "Afrocentric movement".
In fact, your inadvertent insinuation that afrocentrist's are disinterested in "the facts", but rather the "manipulation of them", only buttress their work, as you elucidate an apparent double standard: afro-centrism as an angry, abrasive, manipulative discourse, and eurocentrism as a "normal", agenda-less framework.
Conversely, as you have obviously used Afro-centrism incorrectly (contexually speaking), you should understand that yes, there are some afro-centrists who choose to ignore "the facts" to push historical inaccuracies; however, there are many more who would not consider themselves "afrocentrists" who are only interested in setting the record straight.
But this thread is not about afrocentrism, my views, or me.....so let it go.
Right. And and on that note we can agree to disagree.
--Exxtol
That has never been my point of contention.
FYI, Baracutei also admits that mtDNA cannot quantify the amount of Taino blood in the Dominican population--meaning (if one is to accept the study as reliable and valid) that 23% of the population could have a "pure" or mixed Taino ancestor 6,7,8, or even 9 generations removed and still be of "Taino descent" according to mtDNA testing.
If I am not mistaken certain genome testing can quantify one's "racial" dna (though its accuracy is debatable); however, this was not used in this study.
I've asked you to not name me as such because I am not one. Your insistence on the term only highlights your ignorance. Furthermore, I grow tired of the incessant juxtaposition of "Afrocentrism" with suspicion, deviance, agenda setting, and that because I am black and my views are not analogous to yours I am somehow inexorably linked to an "Afrocentric movement".
Every bit of this statement troubles me. But sense you appear to have trouble reading let me copy and paste from above:
I grow tired of the incessant juxtaposition of "Afrocentrism" with suspicion, deviance, agenda setting, and that because I am black and my views are not analogous to yours I am somehow inexorably linked to an "Afrocentric movement".
In fact, your inadvertent insinuation that afrocentrist's are disinterested in "the facts", but rather the "manipulation of them", only buttress their work, as you elucidate an apparent double standard: afro-centrism as an angry, abrasive, manipulative discourse, and eurocentrism as a "normal", agenda-less framework.
Conversely, as you have obviously used Afro-centrism incorrectly (contexually speaking), you should understand that yes, there are some afro-centrists who choose to ignore "the facts" to push historical inaccuracies; however, there are many more who would not consider themselves "afrocentrists" who are only interested in setting the record straight.
But this thread is not about afrocentrism, my views, or me.....so let it go.
Right. And and on that note we can agree to disagree.
--Exxtol
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No blood analysis is needed, just looking at them proves that they are mixed. However, they are proud of their Carib heritage and DNA, to the point that those who do have Carib indian DNA are considered 'indians', even though most of them look more African.
-NALs
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Are you positively sure that you are predominantly of African ancestry or you are simply assuming that based on your appearance?
I say this because Dr. Henry Louis Gates, JR; a respected African-American professor at Harvard University, by all accounts looks 'black' (well, he actually looks mulatto, but that's besides the point) and yet, when he subjected himself to a DNA test to discover his genetic make-up, it was found, to his surprise, that most of his genes come from IRELAND.
Look at the guy, does he looks Irish to anyone?
Doubt it and yet, most of his biological heritage is Irish or European.
I'm not saying that that is your case, but there is only one way to find out what anyone truly is and that thing runs through everyone's veins. Looks, as the old saying goes, can be deceiving.
African American Lives
-NALs
On the contrary Exxtol, I dont think its a moot point whatsoever. If I mention DNA and positive results the response is always about (a) amount or (b) purity. What about "oh my there really is Taino descent on the island?". You dont get that.
So now you say that you are part Indian, but you identify as Black. And you go on to say that you have more Indian than "most, not all Dominicans". On how earth did you come to that conclusion???
I myself participated in an DNA test. Mush to my dismay even my mother could not understand why I paid someone money to tell me what I already knew about my ancestry. I took a Bio-geographical Autosomal Nuclear DNA test. This test gives you percentages of everything in your genome. My results suggested that between four and five generations ago my ancestors were relativley "pure" or "full" blooded.
Am I the most Indian Dominican? NO of course not. What this test basically says is that there is a substantial component in my genome that is Indian. Thats it. Identity is another matter. You identify as black, for whatever reason, but you yourself are mixed blood. But when a dominican of mixed blood Identfies as Indian, then he or she is accused of either denying their negritude, or being Anti-haitain. In other words, it only takes one drop of black blood to make you black, but you need a WHOLE lot of indian blood to make you indian. Honestly Exxtol, does this really make sense?
As for the marginalization of natives in those other countries, you are right we face diffferent issues than they do. But in those countries neither Africaness nor nativeness is ever questioned. It is a fact.
These dna tests simply explain: There is Native descent on the island. Shall we go back to the redundency and continue to speak of how much and how pure?
Baracutei
One more thing, About the DNA tests. It could be that after allteh resulst are in the percenatges of Taino ancestry might actually go down. Or it may rise. We just wont know until the are all in. What we know for sure is that we cannot continue to claim that the Taino became extinct. Assimilated perhaps, but extinct.............nope nevr happened, we know that for sure now.
I think this is quite amazing, that from 80 to 100 years ago here in quisqueya, there were at the very least many full blooded Tainos. My next question would be at what point could we expect for the language to have been lost and is there any historical record that would talk about this.
I can imagine that even in the late 19th century that there were some isolated communities where people spoke both languages, or at the very least spoke the native languages among themselves, and Spanish among all others. this is very much equal to what happened on the East coast of the US with various indian tribes that didn't go on the trail of tears to Oklahoma.
This thread is thought provoking and it has motivated me to read more about the Taino subject. I have an observation and Baracuatay could correct me, when the Spaniards started populating the DR the majority where men. If that was the case then it would follow that their mates would be Taino women as very few if any Spanish women came with them. If the same can be said for Puerto Rico could this be one of the reasons for the high mitochondrial DNA results there?