- Thread starter canadian bob
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"Take them all out of here..."
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There seems to be several concurrent threads going on about the Cardinal. I will repeat in this forum (Living) what I just posted in the General Stuff forum. In a recent survey by a reputable polling firm, published in El Listin newspaper, the Cardinal received a favorable rating of 72%. Considering the Cardinals political ambitions, it should be no surprise that, if the current decadent political system falters, which is no far-fetched feat, the Cardinal is a definite shoo-in for the Presidency of the Dominican Republic.
Viva El Cardenal!
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Viva El Cardenal!
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What a difference a few months makes
http://www.dr1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=348096&postcount=25
So, Mirador, which is the real you?
Mirador said:
Mirador said:
http://www.dr1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=348096&postcount=25
So, Mirador, which is the real you?
Alright, let's see.
Well, what would you do if he, (the cardinal) called to exile one named "blastdiaz" because he suspected you were a homosexual and a detriment to society? Eh?
"Me personally do not have a problem with gays or lesbians as long as they behave like normal people" <quote>
Behave as normal people? What is your definition of "normal". Do you consider yourself normal? Is your demeanor normal? And how do you know it is?
<Quote> These people may be allowed to adopt kids hence teaching the young that it is a normal behavior.>
To date, very few gays have been able to adopt free and clear. Too many taboos still exist to make them eligible. Although I think they can still be suitable parents, it is too bad they're not allowed to become one. The alternative is for an orphan to bang his head against his crib. If you know what I mean.
In essence, blastdiaz, homophobia is like racism. If you don't approve of it, it is because you do not understand it. In a free and democratic society people will behave any which way they please regardless of your approval. That's the way it's supposed to be. So, if they don't bother you, leave them alone, ok? .... live and let live.
"You're asking to hang the man just because he expresses himself"blastdiaz said:
Well, what would you do if he, (the cardinal) called to exile one named "blastdiaz" because he suspected you were a homosexual and a detriment to society? Eh?
"Me personally do not have a problem with gays or lesbians as long as they behave like normal people" <quote>
Behave as normal people? What is your definition of "normal". Do you consider yourself normal? Is your demeanor normal? And how do you know it is?
<Quote> These people may be allowed to adopt kids hence teaching the young that it is a normal behavior.>
To date, very few gays have been able to adopt free and clear. Too many taboos still exist to make them eligible. Although I think they can still be suitable parents, it is too bad they're not allowed to become one. The alternative is for an orphan to bang his head against his crib. If you know what I mean.
In essence, blastdiaz, homophobia is like racism. If you don't approve of it, it is because you do not understand it. In a free and democratic society people will behave any which way they please regardless of your approval. That's the way it's supposed to be. So, if they don't bother you, leave them alone, ok? .... live and let live.
Don Juan said:
Absolutely. I am all for personal freedom, and I dont agree at all with the Cardinal. I dont like him either. I have tremendous respect for religion, but religion is not the Cardinal, he is a mere functionary of the Church, which is an institution like any other (except for its mandate, and that is a significant difference).
No, I have always been too much of a freethinker to fit into any institution comfortably. As I said before, judgement and condemnation are best left to the gods; we puny mortals have no purchase on absolute truth, so we need to practice forgiveness and tolerance.
Also I see absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality or lesbianism. It has been a part of human societies for as long as we have been on this earth, and if you examine the moral strictures against it promulgated in texts like the Bible you will find that there are usually deeper reasons for the prohibitions that are not in fact moral in essence.
Btw, let me just point out that one should always be careful invoking the Bible to defend one's moral arguments. The Bible is filled with rogues, adulterers, killers, incestuous relationships -- and these are the good guys: Jacob was a thief and a liar, Abraham an adulterer, and Lot slept with his daughters! But in fact all of this was done for good reason, and when you understand that reason, you will begin to understand why the Bible has harsh things to say about homosexuality. I might add here that popular belief has it that Sodom and Gomorrah are synonymous with pederasty, and while that was part of the sinful revelling goiing on, the reason for the Twin Cities' fall is much more complex.
just watched broke mountain or what ever its called. not religeous at all (i belive in myself...thats my thing) but the homosexual movement has even taken cowboy's away from us. the next western i watch will star clint eastwood.
im not a biggot but its all becoming too IN YOUR FACE.....
im not a biggot but its all becoming too IN YOUR FACE.....
sosuajames said:
As sosuajames has recently reminded us of his formidable physical proportions, I will refrain from attacking him on this (or any) thread!
Ha!Actually we just watched Brokeback Mountain, and while I liked the movie, I wasnt deeply impressed by any means. Anyway, it certainly didnt take cowboys away from me, I think Hollywood did that years ago when it stopped being a viable genre.
Btw, Sosuajames, I have a funny story for you about such matters being in one's face. Years ago when I was a poor starving student one of my jobs was coatchecking at a bar in the village, when the cocktail scene had suddenly become all the rage again. This particular bar was very well known and drew a mixed crowd, but it was owned and run by the two homosexual sons of a famous hungarian model who used to go out with JF Kennedy. So it had that lure and panache that a certain class of people in NYC really like, and it was basically a gay bar, though like I say plenty of other types checked in there, and the food was superb so it had a very busy dinner traffic. I made tons of money there, and all I did was check coats! (ok, I know I am letting myself in for some jokes at my expense here, but I assure you all was very tame. And my girlfriend at the time worked there with me)
Anyway, one night a guy comes in, looking almost like he was being chased, a bit breathless, a bit flustered. I said, you OK? and he says, "man I had no idea that the village was full of flamers! I came in here to escape all the faggots in the street. " (his very words)
I didnt have the heart to tell him that he had escaped the pot only to land in the fire!!!
i hear ya about the pot and the fire. btw i can take the heat without taking offense. i was just trying to make a point about human nature and the way some people are. i even try to shoo the house flys out the door rather than sqwashing them.
Don Juan said:
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You clearly have an agenda to defend, and the radical, aggressive, and offensive way you defend it, demonstrates that there is something wrong with it. You may want to portray it as normal. Guess what??? It isn?t. Let's stop trying to make something that a small group practices to be the norm rather than the exception. This topic is so OLD, it?s really tired. The moment someone says anything about it, the homophobic card is pulled. Racism and rejecting someone?s behavior is entirely different, gays and lesbians are not rejected because of their race, color, can you understand how that is clearly different?. You use the word democracy so freely that it shows your lack of understanding of it.
?To date, very few gays have been able to adopt free and clear. Too many taboos still exist to make them eligible. Although I think they can still be suitable parents, it is too bad they're not allowed to become one. The alternative is for an orphan to bang his head against his crib. If you know what I mean.?
I am truly glad that is the case, what?s the next thing we will move onto? Incest?? Well just because someone wants to do it and we are in a democracy it should be ok, Is that your logic?, if you will not respect a culture?s desire to reject your inclinations then you should consider a different one. I suggest you look for the meaning of the word ?Culture?
As well as read and try to understand Dominican Republic?s heritage and culture. And remember the cardinal may be using words; the radical group is already shooting bullets
VERY old and very tired
Yes this style of defense is very old, tired and quite honestly boring. Having been born and raised in NYC and listening to these arguments for a half a century I don't find anything new here . The best Mr. Juan can do is shout out"Go suck a big one"? Comon, my friend, if you want to promote your agenda you can do better than that. How about--1) organize your support thru your community. 2) Write editorials in the newspapers supporting your viewpoint. 3) Get support from a political party . 4) Be proactive all the way not just in front of the magical keyboard. 5) Don't work with anger. Use your head and be creative. OK--Yeah I know "well that's a lot of work", "I don't have a say here, I'm a ex-pat", "I don't have the time". Sorry, but that's the way it works in any country, any agenda. Need to understand the culture, politics, etc. But, I guess the best you are capable of is "go suck a big one"
Is there something I don't know that you have done? Ready, willing and able to listen to you.
JOHN
blastdiaz said:
Yes this style of defense is very old, tired and quite honestly boring. Having been born and raised in NYC and listening to these arguments for a half a century I don't find anything new here . The best Mr. Juan can do is shout out"Go suck a big one"? Comon, my friend, if you want to promote your agenda you can do better than that. How about--1) organize your support thru your community. 2) Write editorials in the newspapers supporting your viewpoint. 3) Get support from a political party . 4) Be proactive all the way not just in front of the magical keyboard. 5) Don't work with anger. Use your head and be creative. OK--Yeah I know "well that's a lot of work", "I don't have a say here, I'm a ex-pat", "I don't have the time". Sorry, but that's the way it works in any country, any agenda. Need to understand the culture, politics, etc. But, I guess the best you are capable of is "go suck a big one"
Is there something I don't know that you have done? Ready, willing and able to listen to you.
JOHN
Gays with Guns? Sounds like a good tag for an organization. I would bet that those doing the shooting are the bar owners who are raking it in. I havent noticed any particularly outrageous or excessively violent behavior among the clientele, but I dont go out much at night any more. I am a fuddy duddy dad now. A friend of mine who owns a beautiful colonial home down the street from a couple of these bars says that it gets a bit noisy outside, but that is the problem with almost any bar. There are too many bars in the City. The Cardinal should press for stronger zoning regulations .
As for what constitutes "normal" behavior, well that is BIG problem to define. Homosexuality in Ancient Greece was a norm that lasted for centuries, and it was part of the educational system as well. The great warrior Achilles was gay (or bisexual, really), and so was the great philosopher Socrates. Throughout history it has been practiced and acknowledged as legitimate behavior by many societies. The injunctions in the Bible against extracurricular sexual activities like wanking and homosexuality are there because the overarching, most important stipulation in the contract between Abraham and God is "Be Fruitful and Multiply." All sex outside of procreative purposes is frowned upon, seed spilled on the sheets is wasted! Why? Because Genesis tells the story of the founding of a small nomadic tribe wandering around in a very inhospitable environment, subject to the whims of bigger tribes, cities, empires. It is very simple: to achieve greatness, the Jews had to increase their paltry numbers. The injunction against homosexuality is largely strategic.
After sixteen years now of photographing in the States, Europe, Asia, the Caribbean, and So. America, having witnessed so many different social practices, having seen matriarchal social groups, patriarchal social groups, a eunuch society, and now these new types of marriages being legislated in developed nations, I would be hard pressed to tell you what is "normal" anymore, and I am forced to conclude that value-laden terms like "normal" or "abnormal" are basically useless in describing these practices. The norms are never fixed. In fact, if you review the panoply of human practices throughout time you will see that the one thing that does remain fixed is the heterogeneity and diversity of practices. Interestingly, this is perfectly in line with the governing principles of natural selection. Nature is not homogenous; diversity is its keynote. Course, you have all probably heard the arguments about homosexuality in Nature. Here is a link to a recent article in National Geographic on the subject:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal_2.html
Frankly, I dont see what all the fuss is about, the gay population is no larger or more boisterous than it was ten years ago, and I am not aware of any major offenses against society on their part. The rou?s at Pacos are a scruffier lot and contribute a lot more to the degradation of the zone, as do the thieves, who are becoming real pests now.
As for what constitutes "normal" behavior, well that is BIG problem to define. Homosexuality in Ancient Greece was a norm that lasted for centuries, and it was part of the educational system as well. The great warrior Achilles was gay (or bisexual, really), and so was the great philosopher Socrates. Throughout history it has been practiced and acknowledged as legitimate behavior by many societies. The injunctions in the Bible against extracurricular sexual activities like wanking and homosexuality are there because the overarching, most important stipulation in the contract between Abraham and God is "Be Fruitful and Multiply." All sex outside of procreative purposes is frowned upon, seed spilled on the sheets is wasted! Why? Because Genesis tells the story of the founding of a small nomadic tribe wandering around in a very inhospitable environment, subject to the whims of bigger tribes, cities, empires. It is very simple: to achieve greatness, the Jews had to increase their paltry numbers. The injunction against homosexuality is largely strategic.
After sixteen years now of photographing in the States, Europe, Asia, the Caribbean, and So. America, having witnessed so many different social practices, having seen matriarchal social groups, patriarchal social groups, a eunuch society, and now these new types of marriages being legislated in developed nations, I would be hard pressed to tell you what is "normal" anymore, and I am forced to conclude that value-laden terms like "normal" or "abnormal" are basically useless in describing these practices. The norms are never fixed. In fact, if you review the panoply of human practices throughout time you will see that the one thing that does remain fixed is the heterogeneity and diversity of practices. Interestingly, this is perfectly in line with the governing principles of natural selection. Nature is not homogenous; diversity is its keynote. Course, you have all probably heard the arguments about homosexuality in Nature. Here is a link to a recent article in National Geographic on the subject:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal_2.html
Frankly, I dont see what all the fuss is about, the gay population is no larger or more boisterous than it was ten years ago, and I am not aware of any major offenses against society on their part. The rou?s at Pacos are a scruffier lot and contribute a lot more to the degradation of the zone, as do the thieves, who are becoming real pests now.
macocael said:
From today's EL NACIONAL On Line
"...Si yo no saco mi pistola, a nosotros nos dan golpes en Petrus, nos acaban y nos matan. Nos sacan del negocio y a nosotros no nos dan ni el ticke ni el dinero de nosotros y eso es un abuso, a mi lo que me molest? fue el abuso que hicieron conmigo por la discriminaci?n por nuestra preferencia sexual",...
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I must admit I too, like the cardinal, would feel very uncomfortable at the presence of two males kissing. Extremely comfortable at the presence of...
Having shared a suite with a couple of GAP guys last year (by coincidence-simply picked a number and took the room I was assigned) I can somewhat sympathize with the way in which the cardinal feels
I understand and acknowledge that the cardinal has every right to be perturbed by the presence of gays in the Zoma. For that matter, the presence of gays in this world, since it definitely does go against the teachings of Catholicism (the way I see it is that all true Catholics must be homophobic, in regard to the act not the person). as I also see it, hating the person also goes against the teaching of the church
Nevertheless, been gay is not a crime in DR <O</O
<O</O
I do vehemently oppose his call for the forceful eviction of gays from the Zona Colonial (or the closure of businesses in the area simply because they cater to a predominately gay crowd) <O</O
<O</O
Furthermore, the way he used the word ‘lacra’ has a connotation of intolerance and hate.
Still contemplating on whether you support the cardinal’s crusade against the ‘lacras’ of the Zona Colonial?
Per DR1,
Having shared a suite with a couple of GAP guys last year (by coincidence-simply picked a number and took the room I was assigned) I can somewhat sympathize with the way in which the cardinal feels
I understand and acknowledge that the cardinal has every right to be perturbed by the presence of gays in the Zoma. For that matter, the presence of gays in this world, since it definitely does go against the teachings of Catholicism (the way I see it is that all true Catholics must be homophobic, in regard to the act not the person). as I also see it, hating the person also goes against the teaching of the church
Nevertheless, been gay is not a crime in DR <O
</O<O
</OI do vehemently oppose his call for the forceful eviction of gays from the Zona Colonial (or the closure of businesses in the area simply because they cater to a predominately gay crowd) <O
</O<O
</OFurthermore, the way he used the word ‘lacra’ has a connotation of intolerance and hate.
NALs said:
Still contemplating on whether you support the cardinal’s crusade against the ‘lacras’ of the Zona Colonial?
Per DR1,
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