The Dominican Constitution; ..Amending it

[Rick Snyder]

Rtejeda,

You just won't learn will you?

Your above post has only 2 spelling errors and has no quotation marks and looks like it was copied and pasted.

Your above post was a waste of time as we know what the history of this country is. Not only that but a number of us live it day by day and don't look at it from another country as some do.

The discussion should be about the present and not the past unless you are trying to show the Dominicans of this board where they have been in the hopes that they won't go there again. Unless you are laying the ground work at an attempt to get them to repeat a prior mistake that would be beneficial to you or your family.


Rick

 

[Texas Bill]

Rick:

It is obvious that Rtejada is guilty of plagerism with his most recent post.
I base this on the style of the "article", on the fact that it is nothing like his previous rambling posts, and that the post is well organized and without his usual vitrolic remarks.

The man obviously is without honor or integrity.

Nuff said.

Texas Bill

 

[Mirador]

Rick:

It is obvious that Rtejada is guilty of plagerism with his most recent post.
I base this on the style of the "article", on the fact that it is nothing like his previous rambling posts, and that the post is well organized and without his usual vitrolic remarks.

The man obviously is without honor or integrity.

Nuff said.

Texas Bill

http://www.country-studies.com/dominican-republic/political-dynamics.html

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-3779.html

 

[drtampa]

Perhaps FAMU allowed plagerism.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Does anyone happen to have the list of 77 questions that the president has directed those participating in the constitutional reform fill out? I can?t seem to find this list anywhere. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Rick

 

[Texas Bill]

Rick:

I read that these 77 do-dads were published in yesterday's periodicals. My paper got thrown out, so I can't verify the story.
Maybe you'll have better luck.
BTW, got your PM. Soaked up 3 hankies, but, like you, all the posts made me realize a few home-truths. Thanks for the link, It is now on my "Favorites" link.

Texas Bill

 

[Texas Bill]

Dominican Republic Political Dynamics

Dominican Republic - GOVERNMENT AND POLITICS

Mirador:

Thanks for the links. They arae now part of my "Favorites" list.
I will re-read them from time to time to reinforce what little knowledge and understanding I have of the DR.
Thanksagain.

Texas Bill

 

[Rick Snyder]

The main point seems to be that Leonel wants the process of the people?s consultation instead of a constituent assembly to accomplish the constitutional reform.

The argument that I am presently hearing is that the constitution went through major changes in 2002 when it was changed to allow the ?calvo? to run again. The argument being presented is that the 2002 change went smoothly and was done by a constituent assembly comprised of all political parties but fails to point out that at the time of enactment that both houses were made up of a vast majority of PRD members. Another important point being omitted is that in 2001 a people?s consultation process was suggested and partially assembled but the PRD shot it down. Similar to what they would like to do this time but they don?t have the power to prevail. There is also a failure to show what other outstanding changes that were made other than allowing a person the ability to serve two terms as president concurrently.

I am also hearing the same argument about constituent assembly being used in the 1994 debacle concerning the constitutional changes made then.

It is my belief that any changes made to a constitution should reflect the feeling held by the populace at large who will be the ones that must live under that which is established. Anything drafted without their input will not help serve them as a society which should be evident from the present document.

The original document and all its changes have basically been formed as a tool to be used by those in power to insure their ability to control things as they wish. The lack of ability of those in power to govern correctly is very evident when looking back through the history of this country. It is interesting to note that leading up to their election and during their term in office the elected officials fail to speak out on those things that everyone knows are important. Education is a classic example. The only ones that talk about education are those that have no control over those that hold the power. The only exception to that is the President but I have come to the conclusion that he is only providing lip service to something of vital importance to this country. In 10 years of living here I have never heard nor seen an elected official mention the need for a better education system or anything remotely related to education except by the president.

Leonel has mentioned the lack of and importance of a Preamble to their constitution. In his speech Monday he mentioned how so many countries have a preamble to their constitution but the DR doesn?t. A preamble is something that introduces the document and its purpose which neither grants any powers nor inhibits any actions. It also serves as a rallying point, a place to place ones faith and pride in their country. All of which are lacking here.

Leonel also wants Article 55 to go through some changes but I have failed to understand what sort of changes he is looking for. Article 55 is that which explains the powers invested by the president. Having read Article 55 in its entirety the point that jumps out at me is contained in the first sentence. It states that the president of the DR has full and complete control of both the police force and the military, all branches. This one sentence should scare a Dominican. It is normal for a president to be the commander in chief of the military but it is strange for him to also have full control over the police. Having the police under federal, state, county and town control serves as a checks and balance against the military. Without this protection there is NOTHING from stopping a deranged president from enacting martial law and using all protective forces against the people.

If I were in the reform assembly I would seriously suggest that a ?line item veto? be put into Article 55. This one act would eliminate a lot of curruption that presently goes on in the present system. With a line item veto he can allow those bills that would truly help the Dominican people and veto out those portions of a bill that have been ?attached? because the legislators think he will pass it so that the good portion gets inacted.

Enough for now.

Rick

Still looking for those 77 questions..........

 

[Texas Bill]

Mirador:

Thanks for the links. They arae now part of my "Favorites" list.
I will re-read them from time to time to reinforce what little knowledge and understanding I have of the DR.
Thanksagain.

Texas Bill

Reference back to Mirador's Post # 43 and the long post by Rtejeda on the Dominican History.
The references posted by Mirador lead one to the "long winded" post by Rtejeda.That post is an almost verbatim cut & paste from one of those articles referenced and a failure of Sr. Tejeda to place them in quotes, thereby assuming authorship of the post for himself.
From this point on, I personally reject any and all of Rtejeda's posts since they will be suspect of being plageristic in nature and not authenically his.
For a political wannabe, he has committed an unpardonable error and is not to be believed in any of his rantings. He obviously hasn't an original thought in his mind and therefore is doomed as an unreliable person.

Texas Bill

 

[Tuan]

Goodness, Billy. I hope you don't 'doom' me. How's it go down when it does?
Meanwhile, I'd like to comment that the DR is about the size of an American city, mid-size in L.A., big-ish in N.A. Having the national police under the prez doesn't seem anymore dangerous than having the police commish under the mayor of New York, Los Angeles and so on.

What seems dangerous to me is the grabbag of greed called the Liga Municipal. If that money had stayed in the hands of the local citizens, perhaps the alcaldías would have some to spend on purely local police, obviating the need for their activities from the NP barracks in every barrio.

 

[Texas Bill]

Goodness, Billy. I hope you don't 'doom' me. How's it go down when it does?
Meanwhile, I'd like to comment that the DR is about the size of an American city, mid-size in L.A., big-ish in N.A. Having the national police under the prez doesn't seem anymore dangerous than having the police commish under the mayor of New York, Los Angeles and so on.

What seems dangerous to me is the grabbag of greed called the Liga Municipal. If that money had stayed in the hands of the local citizens, perhaps the alcald?as would have some to spend on purely local police, obviating the need for their activities from the NP barracks in every barrio.

Tuan:

Didn't mean to scare YOU.

As to the Municipal League acting as a go-between for Government distribution of funds to the Municipalities, well, that is a very touchy subject here.
The Central Government, unlike in the US, is exactly that. They govern everything from soup to nuts for the entire country. If you think Washington is Power Mad you should observe the situation here.
The Municipalities depend on the CG for every centavo they get. It's that the CG doesn't trust any of it's money, or power, in the hands of the locals. The CG dribbles out what they haven't earmarked for themselves and a percentage of that dribble stays in the hands of the Municipal League heirarchy to be used as they see fit (ie., paying all their relatives, friends and political cronys).
The Law Enforcement bloc (ie., Military, National Police, etc.) are an extremely strong force here. They virtually control the politicians from the standpoint of intimidation to not mess with them and their under the table takes. For the most part, they do as they please, whetherit be forcing their way to the front of thegrocery line, to taking impounded vehicles for personal use (and for THEIR cronys).
This is the same system that has been in evidence for centuries and isn't likely to change anytime soon. The NP and Military would probably revolt if any Chief Executive ried to change things. The Chief Executve is the "Titular" head of both organizations, but can easily be replaced through revolution.
On the surface, things "seem" to be changing, but it is characteristic of this country to give the "appearance" of changes while maintaining the Status Quo by other methods, or by subverting the facts.

After that and if I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll be back.

Texas Bill

 

[Rick Snyder]

Talk of the LMD is very interesting and with all my searching I fail to come up with much information concerning this entity. It seems as this organization was formed back in the 30?s by Trujillo but I don?t know for what purpose it was formed back then.

Presently the LMD has the responsibility of disbursing the monthly funds that the government gives to the municipalities. To my knowledge they also have the responsibility of insuring that said municipalities follow the rules that have been implemented. If this in fact one of their obligations then it is apparent that they aren?t performing their job.

The law presently states that each municipality must use 40% of their funds for operational purposes, 35% for services and 25% for payroll. The law also states that they must bank sufficient funds to insure for the yearly Christmas bonus that is given out each December. It is also my understanding that the LMD is authorized 5% of these government monies for their operations, services and payroll.

The latest figures that I can find state that the government gives RD$ 11 billion a year to these municipalities which passes through the hands of the LMD. If this figure is correct then the LMD rakes in about 55 million and disperses about 10.9 billion to the 151 municipalities which averages to about 72 million each.

It must be noted that these monies that are dispersed to the LMD each month are done so by the C?mara de Cuentas which as the states dispersing agency has that as one of its main functions. Why they must operate through the LMD and thereby circumventing their job is one of those riddles within the system.

As these municipalities are supplied and directed to use 40% of their monies for operational purposes, to include x-mas bonuses, then why the Eastern district of Santo Domingo is looking for a loan to pay same and to purchase new vehicles for the newly elected officials is beyond me and the laws that have been established.

I think the LMD should be abolished.

Rick

Who should be president? I found this today and thought I?d share it to those that may not be aware;
http://www.dr1.com/forums/169706-post11.html

 

[Texas Bill]

Other than the Executive branch, the LMD is probably the SINGLE MOST POWERFUL Government Organization in the Country.
This organizationvirtually controls EVERY PESO that is supposed to be distributed to the Municipalities.
If these municipalities don't follow the edicts of the LMD, then that organization simply cuts the funds to be disbursed and puts the municipality "out to dry". That action is tantamount to the political death of the municipalities incumbents, so they must simply "go along with the crowd" in order to survive.
I agree with Rick. The LMD is really nothing but a "cash cow" for its members, since they do nothing to deserve their largess. Their function is a duplication of effort by other organizations within the Government and serve absolutely no useful purpose. A hold-over from ancient times transfered to this hemisphere in the early days of the Spanish Empire, of the Moorish occupation of Spain and slightly modified to fit more modern times in Government. Status Quo at it's worst.
Its elimination would probably result in a much more efficient organizing of local needs and give local politicians a chance at management of their own affairs.
Perhaps the result would be a more efficient management of municipal affairs, since the incumbents would need to answer to the local population's needs and desires in order to prevent being overwhelmed by huelgas.
In addition, the Armed Forces should be completely re-organized into reduced regional cadres, trained in "rapid response' methods of defense. Establish some cadres as Border patrol with the responsibility of sealing the border with Haiti and placed under an "Internal Security" mogul who would bear the responsibility toward that end. Establish a corallary Aviation Detachment to enhance the patrolling of the borders and the offshore to mitigate incursions by aerial drug activities. This to be a dual-purpose force under the control of a Minister of Defense who would make assignments according to need and activity.
National Police to be assigned to the various municipalities and controlled by those municipalities to assure appropriate "law & order" enforcement.
A Special Investigative organization, properly trained, to perform criminal investigation and with individuals assigned to municipalities to augment the local law enforcement personel.
Amet to be reorganized and trained in the enforcement of traffic laws, aprehension methods, and act as ancilliary forces to the local police as needed.
Establishment of a "highway patrol" agency whose responsibility would be to properly patrol the highways, investigate accidents, enforce the national traffic laws (to include citing/arresting unsafe vehicle owners) and act as ancilliary to other law enforcement agencies as required.
Establish a "Law Enforcement Academy" from which ALL police officers must graduate with an established minimum score in a "Final" written examination. Then require a minimum of one year probationary "Rookie" status before being certified permanent by appropriate authority.
Require an annual review of performance with a minimum score for continued employment.
This latter should be innauguerated as standard throughout the Government Civil Service, thereby eliminating the "lazy", the "inefficient" and the "immature".
One could go on with recommendations, but would it be an exercise in futility? We must wait and see.

Texas Bill

 

[elchino]

The Catholic church and Dominican politics

Now that we are talking, in the Dominican Republic, about "Constitution Reform", how about a constitutional article to separate the State and the Church and electing the provinces? governors?:chinese:

 

[Rick Snyder]

Elchino I do really wish you would ask a question rather then running off at the mouth about something you seem unfamiliar with.

One more time for your reading pleasure;

Rep?blica Dominicana: Constituci?n de 2002

Please go to Article 8 and read that. Then go to paragraph 15 of the same article and read that. After reading those and the entire 122 Articles of the constitution please indicate to me where the church has any say in the operation of the government. Show me where the word church (iglesia) is mentioned even once or the word God (Dios). Having said that then explain to me why an additional article must be introduced to seperate the supposed church and state.

Article 86 applies to the governors of each district and in said document you will notice that other then stating that the executive branch shall pick them you will notice that there are no duties assigned to them. Rather, it says that their duties will be determined by laws which happen to be separate from the constitution. Because of that then I agree that they should be voted into office also and article 86 stricken from the constitution.

Rick

 

[HOWMAR]

There may in fact be no reference to the "church" in the Constitution, but without an article to seperate Church and State, the State is free to enter into agreements with the Church as it see fit. As a result of the 1944 agreement with the Vatican, the DR established the Catholic Church as the official religion of the country and granted certain rights specifically to the Catholic Church. For example, a marriage performed by a Catholic priest is legally recognized, yet a marriage by a rabbi is not.

 

[Rick Snyder]

I am having a difficult time finding the article but I am positive that the DR within the last year passed a law allowing all religions to perform marriages in this country and it is law.

The concordat between the Dominican state and the Vatican was signed in 1954 and was done so that Trujillo would and could get more support from the catholic church in his endeavor to reign over the country through subsidizing the construction of church buildings, enhancing religious education, providing stipends for clergy and ultimately providing other prerogatives to the church and naming the catholic church as the official church for the Dominican Republic. President Bosch tried to eliminate the concordat but the catholic church quickly stepped in and helped with his overthrow.

The concordat along with the Vicariato Castrense and the Patronato Nacional San Rafael are just papers or treaties that can in fact be withdrawn by the government if they in fact wanted to. As they are not part of the Dominican constitution they are not able to be enforced as the constitution.

The state can not enter any agreement that goes against the constitution. It is due to that law, which is within the constitution, that if someone had the nerve, time and money the concordat could be challenged and thrown out due to the fact that the DR constitution takes no sides to any specific religion.

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=15564
http://www.dr1.com/forums/431813-post89.html

Rick

 

[Rick Snyder]

HOWMAR you are correct in every word!!!!!!!!

Upon further thought I decided to study the US constitution a bit more. Being American I am well aware of the wording of the first amendment to my constitution and know that it doesn?t state that there will be a separation between church and state. The wording ?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof? does not say ?There will be a seperation between church and state?. The phrase "separation of church and state" does not actually appear anywhere in the US Constitution.

With this in mind then why is it that everyone knows that there is in fact a seperation between the two. The reason for this is because it is a political doctrine but it isn?t a law.

In the DR constitution in Article 8 it starts out with, ?Se reconoce como finalidad principal del Estado la protecci?n efectiva de los derechos de la persona humana y el mantenimiento de los medios que le permitan perfeccionarse progresivamente dentro de un orden de libertad individual y de justicia social, compatible con el orden p?blico, el bienestar general y los derechos de todos. Para garantizar la realizaci?n de esos fines se fijan las siguientes normas:?

In that same article under paragraph 15 it says, ?Con el fin de robustecer su estabilidad y bienestar, su vida moral, religiosa y cultural, la familia recibir? del Estado la m?s amplia protecci?n posible.? Now with this one I have a little problem with in that my Spanish isn?t that good to interpret it correctly. I interpret it to mean that the state will do all it can to insure protection of the moral, religion and culture of the people.

With the concordat establishing the catholic church as the recognized religion of the land and the wording of Article 8 para.15 I can see where it could be construed that there is no separation between church and state.
It is my belief, and I could be wrong, that the Dominican constitution was set up as a document that would separate the church from taking a controlling hand in the operations of the government and was the reason the words God and church were omitted and why no specific religion was established in its writing. It also appears to me that the concordat, Vicariato Castrense and the Patronato Nacional San Rafael do in fact go against that which is written in the Dominican constitution. If this is true then those papers are in fact illegal according to the constitution. As I can't obtain a copy of any of the aforementioned documents I can only rely on the words of others.

This seems to be a problem within the system that I would consider very important to sort out but it is something that Dominicans must undertake.

It was with the signing of the concordat that started the government on its road, that continues today, of giving vast amounts of money to the church every year to include tax breaks.

The signing of the Vicariato Castrense in 1958 established the catholic church within the military along with the military ranks with monthly payment to some catholic priests.

The signing of the Patronato Nacional San Rafael, also in 1958, gave the catholic church the authority to teach its religion within the public and private school systems here among other things.

I found these for your reading pleasure and I?m sorry but they are all in Spanish.
El Concordato un c?ncer interno que mata
PROGRAMAS RADIALES - 12 de Marzo 2005
PROGRAMAS RADIALES - 19 de Marzol 2005

MIENTRAS ESTE EL VICARIATO CASTRENSE

Now in this article you will see the Dominican constitution mentioned;
El Concordato y el Vicariato Castrense nulos de pleno derecho
This has to do with Article 8 para. 8 whereas it says, ?La libertad de conciencia y de cultos, con sujeci?n al orden p?blico y respecto a las buenas costumbres.?

Rick

The links above are from a religious site and a communist party site;
Bienvenidos a Luz M?s Luz
Bienvenidos a Despertar

 

[elchino]

There you go again!

Elchino I do really wish you would ask a question rather then running off at the mouth about something you seem unfamiliar with.

One more time for your reading pleasure;

Rep?blica Dominicana: Constituci?n de 2002

Please go to Article 8 and read that. Then go to paragraph 15 of the same article and read that. After reading those and the entire 122 Articles of the constitution please indicate to me where the church has any say in the operation of the government. Show me where the word church (iglesia) is mentioned even once or the word God (Dios). Having said that then explain to me why an additional article must be introduced to seperate the supposed church and state.

Article 86 applies to the governors of each district and in said document you will notice that other then stating that the executive branch shall pick them you will notice that there are no duties assigned to them. Rather, it says that their duties will be determined by laws which happen to be separate from the constitution. Because of that then I agree that they should be voted into office also and article 86 stricken from the constitution.

Rick

Well, perhaps I shall rephrase it. The fact of the matter is that the church is very influencial and legally, active in the Dominican Republic?s political arena.:chinese:

 

[elchino]

Article 86 of D.R. Constitution

Article 86 grant power for the executive branch to appoint the governors for all the provinces. What I am trying to say,( Mr. Spy,) is that these governors should be elected by the popular votes during the presidential elections, not appointed as required under Art. 86. :chinese: