The Dominican Constitution, Respected or Rejected

[Hillbilly]

And now ladies and gentlemen, let's get back on topic

The DR Constitution is taught, in a limited fashion, in some of the better schools, FACT.

99% of the population has never read it. FACT.

60% of the population can't read it. FACT.

So what to debate?

HB, being very sarcastic tonight.

 

[daddy1]

Can anyone tell me....

Who wrote the constitution?.. where is it being displayed in D.R.? or is it posted on the internet...the reason for this questioning is because I am also shocked there are people wanting to live there, and they don't even know there rights, if they even have any! I mean people travel blindly and by not knowing the laws and rights of a country, they become a missing's person report such as the young lady missing in Aruba...the parents are getting a rude awakening right now.

When I lived in D.R. in 2004 many people asked me to get dual citizenship, but I was reluctant to do so because I felt I would lose some of my American constitutional pull if I did so...you see I don't know what your rights are in D.R. so how the hell, and why the hell, should I have gotten dual citizenship, I asked consules, vise consules, parent's, friends, musicians, ballplayers and none had a clue, I also consulted and attorney and he only told me about benefits you would have as a citizen that's it!! you know Bank accounts, retirement funds etc. the only right's as an American traveling and living in D.R. I felt was that if I get in trouble...just scream embassy, and I felt by becoming A Dominican citizen that I would be open to any abuses that may occur by there unpredictable behaviors at times..you know what I mean...

I just don't understand how you can even register to vote or live there without knowing your rights, it's like playing a sport without knowing the rules, or buying a house without reading your mortgage! I even called the U.S. embassy there, and they don't even know it, they told me it may be in the library,so I went there too, it was not there either! I asked a Dominico Americo professor and he gave me nothing but proper talk and alot of spin@, he did mention that it's a little like the U.S.'s constitution but the law aspect of it was a little different, but no specifics... can anyone confirm this as being so? and is there even any public portrait of this document anywhere?

 

[millard]

I agree with Hillbilly that most Dominicans neither know nor care to know what the Dominican Constitution says. Dominicans already know that the people in power tend to do what they like, regardless of what their Constitution says. It's one thing to have laws; it's another thing to actually respect them. Because there is no institutional respect for the laws (i.e. rich people can "opt out" for a fee and powerful people can simply ignore them), Dominicans don't believe that the Constitution is very relevant.

Remember that the DR had a fine constitution, and even went through the charade of having elections, during the 30 years that Trujillo was in power.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Daddy 1 here is the link for the constition of the DR:

http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Constitutions/DomRep/dominicanrepublic.html

Hillbilly I love your posts as you almost always seem to have that way of saying in a short context that which takes me a number of paragraphs to express.Lololol.

 

[sancochojoe]

You are completely correct in your usage of both terms. What Ron is referring to is what is called politically correct usage. Thus any word that would have racial overtones(niggardly), which the poorly educated would equate with the word nigger, which as you probably know is a bad world to use around black people unless you are a black american yourself.

Bingo!!! Nobody said you misused the word, but sometimes their are words that are generally not appropriate. I would also say that in an ideal world, you don't need to be around people of color to know not the use certain words, but also people of the lighter persuasion should also show offense of inappropriate words as well.

Its called "CIVILITY" That should be a universal behavior.

 

[Mirador]

Niggardly

Thus any word that would have racial overtones(niggardly),

I have further researched the offensive word, and have found out its etimology. Niggardly means "miserly" or "stingy", and the first written record of the word dates from 1530, and the noun niggard, "miser", has been around much longer, having been used by Geoffrey Chaucer in 1374.

but sometimes their are words that are generally not appropriate. I would also say that in an ideal world, you don't need to be around people of color to know not the use certain words,

Now, just because some colored folk living on a certain street and corner in New York City take offense at a perfectly legitimate and accepted word only because its pronunciation suggests a slang word derived from the word Negro, the rest of the English speaking world should stop using it?

 

[sancochojoe]

I have further researched the offensive word, and have found out its etimology. Niggardly means "miserly" or "stingy", and the first written record of the word dates from 1530, and the noun niggard, "miser", has been around much longer, having been used by Geoffrey Chaucer in 1374.



Now, just because some colored folk living on a certain street and corner in New York City take offense at a perfectly legitimate and accepted word only because its pronunciation suggests a slang word derived from the word Negro, the rest of the English speaking world should stop using it?

My God, what planet are you from. Fag in England is a cigarette, you definately would not go to the states and walk up to a guy and say, "Do you have a Fag". Now would you? Use some common since. There are so many other words that have the same meaning as Niggardly (DUH, I KNOW WHAT THE WORD MEANS!) but don't you think a bit a civility in your part would come to play in your word selection. If you choose to use it, so be it, but don't be surprised that someone, white or black, may not know what it means, or someone may not hear the "dly" part because a gust of wind distorted the sound. Next thing you know, there is a shouting match, or blows start to throw. Like I said, Know your audience, and use your best judgement.

Well, as far as the audience here, you probably could have taken the "dly" off and gotten away with it. It wouldn't suprise me.

 

[Mirador]

Nigger

Now that you mention it, here's the scoop on nigger. Nigger is derived from niger, the Latin word for "black". However it does not necessarily mean "a black person", just "black" the color. On the other hand, you have Africa's Niger river and the country of Nigeria were given those names because of the color of the people there. Nigger entered Middle English as neger, a form of the Old French negre, itself borrowed from the Spanish negro, "black".

 

[sancochojoe]

Now that you mention it, here's the scoop on nigger. Nigger is derived from niger, the Latin word for "black". However it does not necessarily mean "a black person", just "black" the color. On the other hand, you have Africa's Niger river and the country of Nigeria were given those names because of the color of the people there. Nigger entered Middle English as neger, a form of the Old French negre, itself borrowed from the Spanish negro, "black".

Look. Mirador, everybody knows the Dictionary definition of the word. Even the racist. But the word is also a well known SLANG world. DUHHHHHHHH.

you are just playing around right? :nervous: :nervous: :nervous:
See. I'm laughing. hahahahaha

 

[Keith R]

Guys, please take the debate over word choice elsewhere (PM, email, debate forum, whatever). Let's stick to the original subject of this thread. :tired:

 

[daddy1]

It seems the constitution is a piece of paper.

With the lack of responses :tired: , and those who have answered this issue...it seems it would be careless and reckless to get duel citizenship in D.R. , but I wanted to point out as well that many of you incourage people to relocate over there, and you fail to mention to these people that there rights can be violated at any point in time, such as what occurs with the Haitian Dominican's out there ...most definately I am confused with D.R. more and more, it seems there's a Democracy with a twist, :cross-eye either way it seems they have a system all there own...can't really describe it..but thanks for the site Snyder, I will review it as soon as I can.

 

[sancochojoe]

Guys, please take the debate over word choice elsewhere (PM, email, debate forum, whatever). Let's stick to the original subject of this thread. :tired:

Last time I checked, this section is "DR Debate"


And the issue is not if the people know the constitution for most Americans do not know their own constiution unless it is interpreted by the political elites or talking heads on CNN. Then that is when you may hear someone at work repeating what someone said on TV the night before.

In DR, the issue is that the responsibility is the government; enforcing the constitution and interpreting it to the best of their abilities. The people should have confidence that their leaders will do just that, but they are no less knowledgeable than an Average American knowing their constitution. They just have the benefit of their local and federal governments inforcing them and their courts interpreting them.

I just walked down the hall from my office just to see and asked several people (with college degrees!) what do they know about the Constitution, I generally got, "I don't know" to "We the People of the United States...." and they stopped right there because they didn't know the rest.

So please.

Maybe if one of you "Well Educated" gringos or "elite" Dominicans that live out there could produce a program like "School house Rock" that taught many Americans for almost 40 years about their country, you may be able to influence and teach a new generation about theres, instead of talking about how sad the condition is. The question is, "What are you going to do about it"

 

[Mirador]

Guys, please take the debate over word choice elsewhere (PM, email, debate forum, whatever). Let's stick to the original subject of this thread. :tired:

IMHU, a Constitution is a matter of words, and words need interpretation, and for the interpretation of words we have a Constitutional Court, like the U.S. Supreme Court, and free discourse, as stipulated by the Bill of Rights, in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

 

[Keith R]

Last time I checked, this section is "DR Debate"

Fine. Then start a separate thread on poor word choices in different cultural contexts. This thread is about the Dominican constitution and how it is or is not implemented .

Joe, you knew exactly what I meant. But couldn't resist the urge to be a *&%$^, right? :tired:

 

[Keith R]

IMHU, a Constitution is a matter of words, and words need interpretation, and for the interpretation of words we have a Constitutional Court, like the U.S. Supreme Court, and free discourse, as stipulated by the Bill of Rights, in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Mirador, this thread is about the Dominican constitution, not the US Constitution and the US Bill of Rights. :tired:

 

[sancochojoe]

Fine. Then start a separate thread on poor word choices in different cultural contexts. This thread is about the Dominican constitution and how it is or is not implemented .

Joe, you knew exactly what I meant. But couldn't resist the urge to be a *&%$^, right? :tired:

You know me. Hey, give me credit for the follow up after my sarcastic remark. I went back on topic, don't you think?

 

[Mirador]

Mirador, this thread is about the Dominican constitution, not the US Constitution and the US Bill of Rights. :tired:

I take umbrage at that expression (wow, finally able to use that word ;-)

I am very aware that the thread is about the Dominican Constitution, but the knowledge of the U.S. Constitution gives the understanding of the D.R. Constitution a very important perspective, which helps in understanding why the D.R. Constitution is not really a Constitution: it lacks the institutional context that could make it an adjective law, which means that in practice the common citizen has no recourse to claim the unconstitutionality of any legal procedure brought against him.

 

[Keith R]

the D.R. Constitution is not really a Constitution: it lacks the institutional context that could make it an adjective law, which means that in practice the common citizen has no recourse to claim the unconstitutionality of any legal procedure brought against him.

I have always felt that part of the reason the Dominican Constitution is not well known and respected is that, until recently, there was no independent Supreme Court to enforce it and to serve as a counterweight to extra-constitutional excesses by the Executive and/or Legislative Branches. Part of the reason the US Constitution gets the respect that it does is the belief among US citizens is that even the President cannot ignore Supreme Court rulings and the average citizen has a chance (eventually) of overturning an Executive or Legislative action if they can show the court that it goes against the Constitution. In the DR, the Constitution is often violated or disrespected by the President and his men -- no matter which political party we are speaking of, although I must say that Hippo was more blatant about it than most.

Another factor, which you allude to, is that it is all too easy to amend the Dominican Constitution, so it is perceived by most Dominicans as an instrument of the moment benefiting those currently controlling the legislature. Prime example: the on-again, off-again changes about the term of office for the President, and the current push by some in the Dominican Congress to align their elections with those of the Presidential elections (and thus give them 2 extra yrs in office). In the US, the special voting majorities and the state ratification process ensures that any amendment that finally takes effect has been shown to represent some degree of national consensus. It also means that crazy, stupid, greedy or fadish ideas usually do not make it through the whole US amendment process (I say usually, since a famous exception -- Prohibition -- did manage to make it through :cross-eye ).

 

[daddy1]

Last time I checked, this section is "DR Debate"


And the issue is not if the people know the constitution for most Americans do not know their own constiution unless it is interpreted by the political elites or talking heads on CNN. Then that is when you may hear someone at work repeating what someone said on TV the night before.

In DR, the issue is that the responsibility is the government; enforcing the constitution and interpreting it to the best of their abilities. The people should have confidence that their leaders will do just that, but they are no less knowledgeable than an Average American knowing their constitution. They just have the benefit of their local and federal governments inforcing them and their courts interpreting them.

I just walked down the hall from my office just to see and asked several people (with college degrees!) what do they know about the Constitution, I generally got, "I don't know" to "We the People of the United States...." and they stopped right there because they didn't know the rest.

So please.

Maybe if one of you "Well Educated" gringos or "elite" Dominicans that live out there could produce a program like "School house Rock" that taught many Americans for almost 40 years about their country, you may be able to influence and teach a new generation about theres, instead of talking about how sad the condition is. The question is, "What are you going to do about it"

Joe I agree that in the U.S. there are alot of citizen's who do not know there constitutional rights..but they have the choice to find out what they are, where to find it and then exercise those right's, above all, those who do not know them are told what they are, whether in school or with an attorney or threw our local state Govenor.

But how can a person vote or become a citizen without knowing there rights!...and why haven't the island's intellectual's passed this information to the people?.....I can only assume that the reason is D.R. is constantly re-inventing itself, and if it is not the case certainly there are other motives to keep Dominican's, American's and especially Haitian's from knowing there right's as citizen's living in the island...this is the main reason why D.R. is considered human right's violators, and not because of the treatment of Haitian's alone.

All citizen's at one time will have there human right's or right's violated in the island at one point in time or another...it's amazing to me how Dominican's have celebrated there independence for so long, but not know of there benefit's for being independent in the first place..a Constitution equals to proclaiming your a democracy.. with a set of laws to protect it citizen's..if this is not being practiced, exercised,but hidden, or constantly altured by it's government, then you are considered a violator of right's...this is why D.R. can't shake this label of human right's violators.. and until they make there constitution clear to the people, and show they respect it, and live by them, they will always make that dreadfull list, year in, and year out!

 

[Rick Snyder]

As a thread was started concerning the amending of the Dominican constitution I thought I would bring this thread out of retirement as it is a good tool to give members that may not be familiar with the subject matter to see some of the thought and feelings concerning this document that is such an important part of a functional democracy.

Rick