The "Dominican" experience

[Chip00]

This thread is intended to discuss, calmy and objectively people's experience with Domincans as a whole with respect to generally regarded "class". I saw NAL's recent poll and decidd to not really get involved because I believed it wasn't going to last long. However, it brings up a couple issues about an apparently "pointed" subject.

With respect to my friend's AZB somewhat heavy handed opinion as regards to "class", I would like to state that I met one of his close friends yesterday(according to him) and this guy was as "classy" as they come in true AZB "form". This guy appeared to have it all, a new jipeta del ano, a career as a prominent neurosurgeon, a beautiful wife and lovely daughter, trilingual and obviously very wealthy and a very pleasant manner - again those are by AZB's definitions.

However, what impressed me the most about this guy wasn't all these apparent credentials. When I asked him if he was a member of Las Aromas Golf Club and he replied "no" but "I'd sure like to learn golf". I said "great" and besides, there are a lot of "important and wealthy" people there and one can make maybe good business/personal contacts. Whereupon this guy responds, "I'm not interested in hanging out with important and wealthy people as I already have enough money to retire, no I'm interested in good company".

It appears at least for this one example that me and AZB are in agreement.

So that brings me to the question as to the "Dominican experiance" because mine and AZB's seem to be at the polar extremes, excluding the above example.

My own personal experiance has been that "classiness" isn't associated with money, power or education. To me "classiness" has to do with not being conceited, being generous and considerate of others and I would like to say that many poor Domincans(although not all of course) I have met have these traits. I think I have had enough experience with the "educated" upper class, albeit back in the states to make a fair assessment when I say in my opinion that being "educated and wealthy" and "classy" aren't mutually exclusive neither here in the DR or anywhere for that matter.

Of course this is my opinion and I would like to know what other's opinions are based on their Dominican experiance and why without being offensive to anyone or group of people in general.

Thanks

 

[2LeftFeet]

I know everyone's definition of class is different. For me it is how you treat people, how you treat yourself and your surroundings. It's being humble.

I agree there are more people with money that have NO class than people that don't have money. People that have NEW money many times are the worst offenders but old money can hold their own.

I travel a lot and was on a trip in Nepal. A family that was on our trip was a prominent family from the DR. This family has more money than this whole board put together. It's astounding. They were very down to earth. Very nice. Didn't brag about their money. I would have never known. It came up one day in passing conversation what companies their families owned --- then I knew.

Anyway. They were classy.---UNTIL a mishap along the way---her doing. The wife berrated the staff at the hotel and humiliated them like I have never seen. I was shocked and so embarassed.She created a scene. She wanted something done immediately and it couldn't be done. It was impossible. I lost respect for her.

You get to see who someone really is by how they treat people who are "considered less" then they are. How does one treat the housekeeper? A homeless person? Mentally ill person? A retarded person? It speaks volumes.

 

[Robert]

Interesting thread. The second it goes of topic or gets personal, it's deleted.

 

[Kyle]

as an american traveling to the DR on a regular basis, i never really "classify" anyone although someone may have a perception of me being an american. respect is global and from what i see, that's all most dominicans want and I the same. a presidente and a couple of stories to tell, i can party with anyone...

 

[Alyonka]

I think that "class" is something that is naturally inside of a person, it is kind of either there or not. It is how they treat themselves and everything that surronds them. I have worked with people of different backgrounds, carreers and levels of income, watched their behavior with their families and at work. The moment I hear a wealthy person brag about their wealth or put someone down - that person falls in my eyes completely because I have met people with real class and saw them treat their servants and employees with dignity and respect and never heard any of them mention or compare someone else's income, car or house to theirs. In terms of DR - I sort of understand what AZB is talking about - all I can say that educated people are more pleasant and interesting to be with then those from the street. That is all.

 

[MommC]

I have been fortunate enough to have met many people of many different social/economic backgrounds from many countries including presidents,prime ministers, entertainment 'biggies', etc. right down to hookers and sankies.
Money does NOT equate class....... even the lowly hooker and sankie who ply thier trades to support their families some time have more 'class' than the wealthiest of individuals.
I must agree with Avora and also mention that some of the 'uneducated' persons I have met have more 'real' education via life experience and watching things like the Discovery Channel,the History channel, nova etc. than some highly educated people I have met.

 

[NALs]

I know I'm an irresistable bait for the wolf pack on DR1, so please control yourself folks, this is just my opinion and not a law written in stone.

I think that people, in general, confuse class with good manners. To me, class has nothing to do with good manners and everything to do with your profession, education level, how you spend your leasure time, what you value the most, etc.

Having said that, the material things that you own do not define you and anyone who believes that is inevitably egoistic and materialistic. You define the things around you, not vice-versa. If you know who and what you are, you will inevitably be a much better caring person and you will treat others with respect and dignity.

Regarding good manners, they are simply that, good manners. It has absolutely nothing to do with the socio-economic class a person belongs to. This is why I don't equate the notion of "class" with "good manners". A person can have good manners and be of a lower socio-economic class and the vice-versa is also true. But, by no means should good manners and class be thought of as being the same, because I think they are different.

True class does leads to being well mannered, but being well mannered doesn't leads to higher socio-economic standing.

The other point I want to make is that whenever a discussion of class is being done, people should keep in mind that it's an emotion charged discussion. For that reason such discussions do tend to go on the personal attack side after a while.

For some reason some people don't want to recognize the obvious, societies function best with class differentiation and to deny such is to be indenial. Also, being class-conscious doesn't make a person any less classy or more classy than he already is. Some of the people you may think is less classy could be the biggest philanthropic person you probably never realized you knew.

Good deeds are best when they are done in quiet and away from the public eye or knowledge. Sometimes the person you may have thought of as the least classiest of all may actually be the one with the biggest heart, but a heart that he doesn't boasts about.

"Doing good things for recognition is acceptable, doing good things for the sake of doing good things is admirable. It's always better to be part of the latter."

That's my take on all of this.

-NALs

 

[Alyonka]

Definitions from Webster's dictionary related to this discussion:

Class:

1: a group sharing the same economic or social status <the working class> b: social rank; especially : high social rank c: high quality : elegance <a hotel with class>
2: a division or rating based on grade or quality
3: the best of its kind <the class of the league>

 

[planner]

But these are two different discussions folks. Being of a defined class based on specific criteria is one thing. Having "class" is totally different.

Chip said:

"when I say in my opinion that being "educated and wealthy" and "classy" aren't mutually exclusive neither here in the DR or anywhere for that matter. "

The first is the "socio economic class system" that NALS has the poll on.

The second is the discussion of "having class" which this thread started by Chip is about.

In my opinion, there are many many "classy" people here. It is not limited to what they do or do not have it is all about how they behave.

I have seen people behave with amazing class and I have seen people behave in such incredibly embarassing and nasty ways! While working in a hotel I was amazed at the behaviours of some very very high net worth individuals - from this country, Americans, Canadians, English etc. It was not restricted by sex, colour or age either.

I have seen very bad behaviour by poor people as well!

What is interesting is the expectations. I find myself, and this is echoed by others, thinking the wealthy and educated should know better, while sometimes excusing the behaviour of the uneducated or less educated.

Class or "good character" isn't something you buy or rent or borrow. You either have it or you don't. Money will not change that. Education will not change that.

Behaviour can be learned, absorbed and made part of your life. Good manners and good behaviour I think are reflective of Class but are not Class.

 

[2LeftFeet]

I think we just expect that if people have money they also have class--myself included and that's why I was so shocked and embarssed by the woman's behavior--post#2.

I think class does encompass manners-- classy people don't spit, aren't vulgar, aren't rude, they treat people with respect. They treat themselves with respect. They put themselves together nicely even if they don'thave money. They are respectable. If someone makes a mistake they don't humilate them or chastise them. They don't put people in THEIR place when given the opportunity. They are humble people.

They aren't showy or ostentatious or pretentious. They are gracious. They appreciate what they have. They don't make people feel less then they are. They'll show a whore and the president the same respect because they both deserve it because they are people.

That's what I think.

 

[Rafael Rothschild]

Respect for others
Generosity
Tolerance toward other habits or cultures.
good manners.
Humility.
Graciousness.
good sense of humor.
good listener.
compassionate.

Any person who has or practices all, or most of, these things, will be consireded by most as a classy person, or a class act.

Now, notice that none of the items listed above, have anything to do with economic levels.

While a higher education can help obtain some of them, there is no guarantee.

 

[Alyonka]

I agree that wealth has nothing to do with class. But wealthy people usually stand out and are sort of on the spot. Sometimes wealth shows hard work, intelligence, determination and motivation of a person. Others look up to those who stand out and young people especially can use them as examples to follow. I guess that is why expectations from them are higher...

 

[nikke]

I think often of the old saying that money doesn't buy class. But I think the definition of class can vary from different perspective. I think of those who were born into money and education vs. those who came into money later in life either through work or some other inheritance. There can be a huge difference in manners and behaviour between the two.

What defines class in the Dominican Republic? Is it manners and money or both? Is it education?

I know that where my parents are from (Antigua), it doesn't matter so much if you are from a poor or rich family, but a heavy emphasis is on the school you went to...There, if you have good grades, you can get into a very good priviate school with a scholarship of some sort. Once you are in, your cohort and alumni connect you for life. It's all about who you know, i.e. your network, not your socio-economic status. Mind you, Antigua is a much smaller country where you can mention a last name and a town and almost immediately identify someone you know or know of.

Does this hold the true for the Dominican Republic?

 

[mountainannie]

Class Manners Courtesy?

There are some interesting dichotomies here - I am astonished for instance by the cleanliness of the interior of Dominican homes and the ability to throw trash on the street......
And the money that goes into the high end new cars and how hard it is to walk across George Washington from the Malecon.....

I live in Gazcue which I find a beautiful area, architecturally, visually - and marvel at the city street sweepers out all day and how entire condo buildings can deposit their household trash on the streets.

Or how the SUVs can almost clip you as you cross the street.

I guess one of my definitions of class is courtesy and respect both for others and the environment.

 

[Alyonka]

There are some interesting dichotomies here - I am astonished for instance by the cleanliness of the interior of Dominican homes and the ability to throw trash on the street......

Me too, it is amazing how dirty some of the streets are. Don't they have enough trash cans or people just don't care for using them? I remember it took me a while to find a trash can near a store.

I also think that people with class are able to recognize their own faults and work on correcting them. They will admit and apologize if they did something wrong and worry more about how moral and true they are to themselves and world around them than what certain people will think ...

 

[Chip00]

Me too, it is amazing how dirty some of the streets are. Don't they have enough trash cans or people just don't care for using them? I remember it took me a while to find a trash can near a store.

The trash problem has to do with ignorance. The majority of the people don't seem to bother trash as long as it isn't overwhelming, at which point they will notice it.

My wife has changed her opinion after living in the US for some time so people's opinion about things can be changed. I found/find it odd too that the Dominicans value cleanliness for the most part and yet tolerate throwing trash on the ground. Of course this has nothing to do with class because many do it regardless of socio-economic status or "class" as defined in the intitial post.

 

[NALs]

The trash problem has to do with ignorance. The majority of the people don't seem to bother trash as long as it isn't overwhelming, at which point they will notice it.

My wife has changed her opinion after living in the US for some time so people's opinion about things can be changed. I found/find it odd too that the Dominicans value cleanliness for the most part and yet tolerate throwing trash on the ground. Of course this has nothing to do with class because many do it regardless of socio-economic status or "class" as defined in the intitial post.

I often wonder why some places in the U.S. are so clean and others are so filthy, considering the anti-litter "culture" that has been created through government efforts through the years.

And sometimes a person doesn't have to travel far to notice the sharp differences. For example, in NYC it's a matter of which street you are on, some are clean and others... well....

Even in Connecticut along the exits of the highways there are all sorts of litter and many times even plastic bags are seen tangled in the trees, apparently flown by the wind after someone threw it out.

Thus, the litter problem is something that is not as easy to fix and many people think. Let's face it, one of the main reasons for why so many places seem clean in the US is due to litter removal efforts by the local governments.

Along the highways you'll see signs stating "XYZ company is responsible for litter removal for the next 2 miles" followed by "Call 000-000-0000 to adopt a spot and help keep America beautiful".

That's proof that apparently masses of people can't be taught to not litter, even in the richest country where governments have the most possible control over their citizens.

What could be expect of less affluent countries?

-NALs

 

[cobraboy]

I think "class"-not the socio-economic kind-is a reflection of how we see ourselves. We perceive those who act and think like we do as "classier" than those that don't.

Of course, we tend to surround ourselves with people we perceive are like we are, too.

 

[Chip00]

Thus, the litter problem is something that is not as easy to fix and many people think. Let's face it, one of the main reasons for why so many places seem clean in the US is due to litter removal efforts by the local governments.

-NALs

I never said that fixing the problem was going to be easy and the governments aren't the only impetus to keep outside areas clean. It certainly helped that the add programs of the early 70's embedded in childrens minds that maintaining the US clean was important because now those "children" are adults and cleanliness and the environment are important to many. Wouldn't that be great if they started something like that here? What happens when the rivers and the groundwater supplies become so dirty that the Water Treatment plants can't use them as a source. Water will have to come from desalinization plants which is very expensive not to mention the amount of piping to get the water to the inland areas.

If you don't think that the water supply won't be affected any time soon I've got some swampland in Florida to sell you. At some point the gov't. here needs to realize they will be saving money by doing a little work now like educating the public about how cleanliness is important to the environment.

Also, you mention the US and that it has littered area - of course but I doubt you will find that is the case in any of the watersheds used for water intake supplies - they are all protected by law. Furthermore, the density of people is more here that it is in the US and therefore the littered areas will therefore have a much more adverse affect.

...back to the original topic - there is an other forum for discussing environmental issues like this.

 

[Rafael Rothschild]

I'm confused.

Is this thread about class or garbage?