The Haitian Occupation of the Dominican Republic

[Naked_Snake]

I sorta liked "In WEEK"!

Pondering about the place (Saman?), it makes one wonder, since it seems to have exerted some sort of magnetism towards French people throughout history. The peninsula was one of those uninhabited place the Buccaneers got to land in after Tortuga and Port-de-Paix, but they would be expelled from there for the first time when the Spaniards started to send Canarian inmigrants to this island from the 1680's onwards. Those inmigrants would establish the town of Santa Barbara proper and the neighboring Sabana de la Mar, as well as the towns in the current Central Plateau (Hinche, Saint Michel de la Atalaye, Saint Raphael and Las Cahobas, as well as Banica on this side of the Massacre). The second time the French would settle would be with Ferrand and co. (only to be expelled from there and from Cuba in 1809). The third one is nowadays in Las Terrenas.

 

[Chip]

You owe it then to enlighten the masses. You guys are like "props" to derail this thread with your rudeness and personal attacks on someone who's shedding light on a part of history which has not been taught, as you admitted, but needs to see the light of day.

I've learned a lot from her and the contribution of Nakedsnake. It would behoove you to bark on another track and dismiss yourself from this thread unless you've something of substance to contribute. With your pseudo-education, you're as vacuous as your posts.

There is plenty of examples on this forum where MA presents untruths as facts. In fact she does this consistently and even after having been confronted at times continues.

Therefore, if you are claiming that anyone has a pseudo education that would be the pot calling the kettle black. History and facts are not negotiable, no matter if you have consensus or repeat the untruth a million and one times.

 

[Quisqueya]

History and facts are not negotiable, no matter if you have consensus or repeat the untruth a million and one times.

Finally said something of substance.

NS, do you think history will repeat itself?

 

[Naked_Snake]

Finally said something of substance.

NS, do you think history will repeat itself?

Them being expelled again? It will depend on many things. The most likely scenario, of course, is that they might end up leaving the place on their own volition if the security situation keeps deteriorating, something which I seem as very likely, since to effectively tackle that, a lot of estructural reforms will be needed. Ones that would touch a lot of interests, and as you should know, this island is the one where "intereses creados" can't be touched, not even with the petal of a rose.

 

[delite]

There is plenty of examples on this forum where MA presents untruths as facts. In fact she does this consistently and even after having been confronted at times continues.

Therefore, if you are claiming that anyone has a pseudo education that would be the pot calling the kettle black. History and facts are not negotiable, no matter if you have consensus or repeat the untruth a million and one times.

Lets hold her accountable to this thread and not persecute her for whatever she might have said in the past. I'm sure you wouldn't want others condemning you for previous inaccuracies.
Why choose this thread to unleash past inaccuracies? Why don't you and LC do some research and contribute "facts" to the discussion? See, history is dynamic and not static. Intellectuals always review and share new information pertaining to a specific date or event.

I would give you the same advice as I did to LC...why attack the woman without justification on this thread? Whenever I saw a discrepancy in one of her posts, she didn't vacillate, immediately she corrected or apologized. Isn't that being a human? He who is without sin cast the first stone.

The truth is an offense but not a sin! You guys are offended and its shown in your collective rage and anger, but I assure you both and others, nothing, nothing is going to derail this thread save the moderators. So you guys could continue ****ing in the wind and enjoy the humidity in your faces.

 

[Chip]

Lets hold her accountable to this thread and not persecute her for whatever she might have said in the past. I'm sure you wouldn't want others condemning you for previous inaccuracies.
Why choose this thread to unleash past inaccuracies? Why don't you and LC do some research and contribute "facts" to the discussion? See, history is dynamic and not static. Intellectuals always review and share new information pertaining to a specific date or event.

I would give you the same advice as I did to LC...why attack the woman without justification on this thread? Whenever I saw a discrepancy in one of her posts, she didn't vacillate, immediately she corrected or apologized. Isn't that being a human? He who is without sin cast the first stone.

The truth is an offense but not a sin! You guys are offended and its shown in your collective rage and anger, but I assure you both and others, nothing, nothing is going to derail this thread save the moderators. So you guys could continue ****ing in the wind and enjoy the humidity in your faces.

With all due respect MA has proven over the years that her "version" of the truth is tainted by her numerous agendas. In other words it is apparent she has difficulty acknowledging contradictions to her agenda, notwithstanding a few peace offerings dressed as concessions to maintain the perception of "indifference".

 

[delite]

With all due respect MA has proven over the years that her "version" of the truth is tainted by her numerous agendas. In other words it is apparent she has difficulty acknowledging contradictions to her agenda, notwithstanding a few peace offerings dressed as concessions to maintain the perception of "indifference".

Chip my brother,

I reciprocate to you kind words but you obviously didn't read my post or didn't understand it. This isn't a personal attack post at all. This is a thread based on important events that occurred on the soil you currently occupy. Sometimes in life things aren't all what they seem.

History is a constant revision. You guys hold a different view but with technology, a plethora of information is readily available for discussion.
Thus, I ask you cordially to refrain from future posts here and allow the free flow of information to reign like it was previously.

 

[Chip]

Chip my brother,

I reciprocate to you kind words but you obviously didn't read my post or didn't understand it. This isn't a personal attack post at all. This is a thread based on important events that occurred on the soil you currently occupy. Sometimes in life things aren't all what they seem.

History is a constant revision. You guys hold a different view but with technology, a plethora of information is readily available for discussion.
Thus, I ask you cordially to refrain from future posts here and allow the free flow of information to reign like it was previously.

With all due respect keep in mind you aren't the OP nor much less a moderator. Furthermore, if the point is to LEARN, people should be aware of MA's agenda, and unfortunately I think yours as well.

BTW, only revisionists like yourself could state that history is in "constant revision". Therefore, as this isn't scholarly position I would ask if you refrain from posting more revisionist history.

 

[AlterEgo]

Grandma is watching, with her wooden spoon ready, so let's behave please.

 

[Chip]

I see few things changing with regard to the current situation barring a crazy leader taking over in either country. The reality is the DR can never close the border, in spite of the fantasy theorists, any more than Haiti could ever have a government that has the least interest in it's citizens. Haitians have been coming to the DR for centuries now because back home they have even less. Dominicans will accept most of them as long as they are willing to leave their vuduu ways and incompatible social practices, in other words become aplatanado.

 

[delite]

With all due respect keep in mind you aren't the OP nor much less a moderator. Furthermore, if the point is to LEARN, people should be aware of MA's agenda, and unfortunately I think yours as well.

BTW, only revisionists like yourself could state that history is in "constant revision". Therefore, as this isn't scholarly position I would ask if you refrain from posting more revisionist history.

Chip,

This constant bickering isn't conducive at all to this thread. Could you give MA a break? You constantly keep harping about the past which I've reminded you that you're not immortal. I don't have an agenda and I damn sure don't wear religion or politics on my sleeve.

I've noticed some here enjoy using coded words like..."revisionist, liberals, conservative, pc, etc." Theyre the ones with agendas. I don't codify everything in life to religion or politics like you do.

You've already sullied this thread with your "agenda" and I suggest to you as a friend to excuse yourself and seek greener pastures to graze.

 

[bob saunders]

That last is taken, as you see, from the Dominican Virtual Encyclopedia

note the last lines

Such was the issue of Dessalines, which led to high Dominican hatred against Haitian domination and sowed terror in our minds who could only arranc?rseles by the enthusiasm of Independence in 1844.

so I question whether antihaitiamismo is not still being taught...

since this was essentially a war against the French reimpostion of slavery, one wonders if it could it not be worded differently?

I am searching for other accounts of the battles..

So MA if the truth is that the Haitian troops acted in excess in the DR, would that truth be repeated in Dominican history records, leading to the feeling that Haitians can't be trusted.

 

[Chip]

Chip,

This constant bickering isn't conducive at all to this thread. Could you give MA a break? You constantly keep harping about the past which I've reminded you that you're not immortal. I don't have an agenda and I damn sure don't wear religion or politics on my sleeve.

I've noticed some here enjoy using coded words like..."revisionist, liberals, conservative, pc, etc." Theyre the ones with agendas. I don't codify everything in life to religion or politics like you do.

You've already sullied this thread with your "agenda" and I suggest to you as a friend to excuse yourself and seek greener pastures to graze.

Speaking of "agendas":

I personally believe that some authors purposely wrote or disseminated inaccurate information to keep the populace ignorant of facts. The purpose is intended to have the two countries in a perpetual cycle of hate and mistrust.

Your agenda is clear.

The massacres and cultural genocide perpetrated by Haitians soldiers on Dominicans is not a myth and are the cause of attitudes today and not propaganda. Furthermore, people who diminish this fact are revisionists and therefore propagandists.

If Haiti wants Dominican attitudes to change they will get real leaders and build an economic model that Dominicans envy. On the other hand, as long as Haitian politicians create policies that cause the poorest Haitian to come here en masse to survive attitudes will not change.

 

[AlterEgo]

Chip,

This constant bickering isn't conducive at all to this thread. Could you give MA a break? You constantly keep harping about the past which I've reminded you that you're not immortal. I don't have an agenda and I damn sure don't wear religion or politics on my sleeve.

I've noticed some here enjoy using coded words like..."revisionist, liberals, conservative, pc, etc." Theyre the ones with agendas. I don't codify everything in life to religion or politics like you do.

You've already sullied this thread with your "agenda" and I suggest to you as a friend to excuse yourself and seek greener pastures to graze.

And you aren't helping matters. ENOUGH. MA is a big girl and can defend herself without your help.

 

[delite]

And you aren't helping matters. ENOUGH. MA is a big girl and can defend herself without your help.

Point taken

 

[mountainannie]

So MA if the truth is that the Haitian troops acted in excess in the DR, would that truth be repeated in Dominican history records, leading to the feeling that Haitians can't be trusted.

Everyone has to draw their own conclusions about that, Bob. I have simply learned that the French Napoleonic troops were here on this side of the island at this time, that thery authorized anyone on this side of the border to capture any children and return them to slavery.. as in .. enlist the few residents that were here into slave trading.

so .. I don't know.. was it excessive to burn the place to the ground?

If your ancestors had been the Haitians, do you think that they would have been excessive?

As for my agenda.. true that I do carry a sort of anti slavery feminist agenda

that I probably will never drop,, my grand mother's grandmother also carried it. Josephine Sophia White Griffing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . The family has entrusted me with the task of continuing with her papers and legacy. But her papers are well kept now at Columbia University. Her name is well known by those who have attended any of the traditional black colleges in the United States. So I guess this is just sorta in my blood.

(I was supposed to write a doctorate but .. well,, wanted to drop out of post grad)

But I have really made an effort here to stick to published sources.

I have enven made efforts to publish the Haitian atrocities in English.

I have asked time and again for Dominican .. and other.. inputs.

So, I think that I have been as fair as one can expect from any person.

 

[mountainannie]

There is plenty of examples on this forum where MA presents untruths as facts. In fact she does this consistently and even after having been confronted at times continues.

Quote

Then it is your duty to correct them

I do not claim to be omnisicient and have always admited my bias

the best that I can do is stand corrected

There is no such thing as a true history.. there are simply collections of different peoples points of view.

so if you have other points of view, other witness, other documents

please contribute them.

but.. just saying that I am a leftest haitian supporting feminist is simply not good enough..

Anyone who has studied the civil rights struggle or the liberation and colonial struggles in this hemisphere has to have studied a bit about the Haitian revolution and certainly been impressed by what was achieved by a group of uneducated and untrained African slaves.

Haiti is not placed in that context for many of you, as it was for me. The Gran Columbia would not have been without the support of Petion


1815 found Simon Bolivar in Haiti attempting to secure the backing of President Petion in his fight against Spain. A similar appeal for aid from the British on Jamaica had been unsuccessful, and Bolivar finally fled to Haiti after narrowly escaping several attempts on his life.4 Initially Petion was reluctant to provide Bolivar aide against the Spanish, but he finally relented. Petion's agreement however, was conditional on the understanding that, in the words of Albert Prago, Bolivar would "take immediate steps to abolish slavery. The Liberator accepted the condition: when he implemented the promise shortly after returning to the mainland, the rewards were great for the patriot annies."5
Eventually, with the aide provided by Petion and others, Bolivar was able to fit out an expedition consisting of "six schooners and a sloop - 250 men, mostly officers, and arms for 6,000 troops."6 He set sail on March 31, 1816 amidst the pageantry of full dress uniforms and salutes fired from guns on shore as he sailed past.7 Unfortunately, the campaigan did not progress as splendidly as had the expeditions departure. Bickering and feuding amoung the leaders of the expedition forced Bolivar to return to Haiti after a few small initial successes. Once again the freedom of much of the South American mainland depended on the generosity of the former slave colony. Petion re-supplied Bolivar's force, and the Liberator once again sailed for the mainland and his destiny.
Although Petion's conditions for supplying Bolivar's expedition were not honored for many years after the Spanish defeat, the fact that he imposed them clearly indicates a desire to spread freedom to those enslaved elsewhere. Considering the aide Bolivar received from Haiti, one would suppose he would hold the people of that nation in high esteem. As we can see from his letters below however, this was not always the case. In the lands which Bolivar :freed, the color of a persons skin became all important. Although he praised the Haitian's military achievements on occasion, overall his comments regarding the only nation which helped him in his time of need were negative. This ungrateful behavior on the part of Bolivar raises many questions, several of which may be found directly after the section of letters.

Haitian Revolution and Its Impact in the Spanish Caribbean

 

[Naked_Snake]

Everyone has to draw their own conclusions about that, Bob. I have simply learned that the French Napoleonic troops were here on this side of the island at this time, that thery authorized anyone on this side of the border to capture any children and return them to slavery.. as in .. enlist the few residents that were here into slave trading.

The truth is, Ferrand wouldn't be the first to come up with the idea of capturing people there to sell into slavery. As far back as 1795, the leaders I mentioned a few posts back (Jean Francois Papillon and Georges Biassou) were selling people captured under the French banner to this side of the island, or even selling then to Spanish traders from the Cuban and Puerto Rican audiencias. The practice would remind me in many ways to the "contracts" the Duvalier regime had with Trujillo and the later "democratic" regimes.

 

[Naked_Snake]

There is plenty of examples on this forum where MA presents untruths as facts. In fact she does this consistently and even after having been confronted at times continues.

Quote

Then it is your duty to correct them

I do not claim to be omnisicient and have always admited my bias

the best that I can do is stand corrected

There is no such thing as a true history.. there are simply collections of different peoples points of view.

so if you have other points of view, other witness, other documents

please contribute them.

but.. just saying that I am a leftest haitian supporting feminist is simply not good enough..

Anyone who has studied the civil rights struggle or the liberation and colonial struggles in this hemisphere has to have studied a bit about the Haitian revolution and certainly been impressed by what was achieved by a group of uneducated and untrained African slaves.

Haiti is not placed in that context for many of you, as it was for me. The Gran Columbia would not have been without the support of Petion


1815 found Simon Bolivar in Haiti attempting to secure the backing of President Petion in his fight against Spain. A similar appeal for aid from the British on Jamaica had been unsuccessful, and Bolivar finally fled to Haiti after narrowly escaping several attempts on his life.4 Initially Petion was reluctant to provide Bolivar aide against the Spanish, but he finally relented. Petion's agreement however, was conditional on the understanding that, in the words of Albert Prago, Bolivar would "take immediate steps to abolish slavery. The Liberator accepted the condition: when he implemented the promise shortly after returning to the mainland, the rewards were great for the patriot annies."5
Eventually, with the aide provided by Petion and others, Bolivar was able to fit out an expedition consisting of "six schooners and a sloop - 250 men, mostly officers, and arms for 6,000 troops."6 He set sail on March 31, 1816 amidst the pageantry of full dress uniforms and salutes fired from guns on shore as he sailed past.7 Unfortunately, the campaigan did not progress as splendidly as had the expeditions departure. Bickering and feuding amoung the leaders of the expedition forced Bolivar to return to Haiti after a few small initial successes. Once again the freedom of much of the South American mainland depended on the generosity of the former slave colony. Petion re-supplied Bolivar's force, and the Liberator once again sailed for the mainland and his destiny.
Although Petion's conditions for supplying Bolivar's expedition were not honored for many years after the Spanish defeat, the fact that he imposed them clearly indicates a desire to spread freedom to those enslaved elsewhere. Considering the aide Bolivar received from Haiti, one would suppose he would hold the people of that nation in high esteem. As we can see from his letters below however, this was not always the case. In the lands which Bolivar :freed, the color of a persons skin became all important. Although he praised the Haitian's military achievements on occasion, overall his comments regarding the only nation which helped him in his time of need were negative. This ungrateful behavior on the part of Bolivar raises many questions, several of which may be found directly after the section of letters.

Haitian Revolution and Its Impact in the Spanish Caribbean

I have to say that those letters, specially the one about "self-destruction", with which I agree wholeheartedly, and the presidency for life, are most enlightening, indeed.

 

[Quisqueya]

The truth is, Ferrand wouldn't be the first to come up with the idea of capturing people there to sell into slavery. As far back as 1795, the leaders I mentioned a few posts back (Jean Francois Papillon and Georges Biassou) were selling people captured under the French banner to this side of the island, or even selling then to Spanish traders from the Cuban and Puerto Rican audiencias. The practice would remind me in many ways to the "contracts" the Duvalier regime had with Trujillo and the later "democratic" regimes.

I don't think we can equate the contracts of Duvalier regime with the French as they weren't capturing Haitians to sell them. A bit of an exaggeration on your part NS. As a Haitian national, I can tell you we don't regret what happened and despite our economic situation, struggles our mark in history has changed the Americas and sovereignty of the colonizers. Thus, we are still paying the price of this audacity. Haiti with continuity will become self sufficient while maintaining good relations with our neigbhours.