The witch hunt in Sosua, can it be legal ?

[Timex]

Wow.

I'm not going to lock it, because there is some real stuff being discussed, between the molitave cocktales, being thrown around here.

So I'm moving down to the Debate Forum, sort of taking the leash of the dog.

Thanks
Tim H.

 

[Buzzard]

While time has dimmed (and maybe, softened my memory), I remember a time, back in the '80s, when a trip to Sosua, just to stroll the main street, was something to look forward to. Tour books described it as having a "European sea-side town feel". It went "Down market" in the '90s, triggered by a large influx of sex tourists. To quote "Dominican Republic - The Rough Guide":
"In the early years, prostitution was restricted to the discos and bars along Calle Pedro Clisante, but as time went on things got futher out of control - foreign men were mobbed outdoors and for a time it become commonplace to see people fornicating on the street"
The guide goes on to state:
"In 1996 the national police poured into Sousa and shut down every bar in the city for a year; the local economy promptly collapsed."

Some futher bits of information which will, no doubt, upset some people; the recent analysis of the sex tourism business in Sosua, "What's Love Got To Do With It? (Denise Brennan, 2004) attributes the large infux of German nationals to the growth of the sex tourism business (pgs 54-55).

Some questions for my fellow readers:
1. Is the Rough Guide's report correct?
2. Did the current goverment recently (re)state their desire to "clean-up" Sosua?

 

[Malibook]

There is a distinct lack of female interest in this thread. Looking at the Victor Laszlo quote above, I wonder why?

If you all were interested in a women's perspective, here it is. The old white men with young lady tottering about on too high heels to my eyes appear as dumb as the old white women tottering about on too high heels with a young sankie by her side. Both parties are tottering about to be seen. The old man portrays "look who I can pay for" and the old women portrays "look who is interested in me".

Both transactions leave me cold and sometimes, a little nauseated.

Victor, prostitution defined as a buy/sell transaction between adults is about as evil as drinking a coca cola. To my mind Sosua should have a red light district for this town's best known activity and move this activity outside of normal business hours, visitors and vacation hours, and visitors and tourist bars, hotels and clubs. Think of the marketing opportunity for a red light district. At least the school kids won't be faced with the old man/old women scenario... and however people try to talk it down, the kids at school are faced with it daily.

As for the cops picking up the only 'innocent' girl on the street, if prostitution was in a red light district, the innocent would be able to walk the streets.

Well said Chris.

Such establishments should not be located in the heart of town near schools and homes etc...

I have seen some somewhat nauseating sights myself but I simply choose not to look.
Live and let live.
It's not as if they are getting in my face and sucking tongues.
Now that would piss me off.
I have never gotten the impression that they are strutting their stuff and showing off their putas.
It is probably simply a matter that they don't give a sh!t what nosey opinionated idiots think.
Even with Viagra and Cialis, it's not as if they can stay inside and f*ck all day and night.

There are numerous women who I would rather not see topless and many men I would rather not see in Speedos but again I don't have a problem minding my own business and not looking.

 

[FarOut]

Don't know much about Sosua...

but it looks like the same thing that is going on in Boca Chice, althrough it startet there a couple of month ago.

BC is smaller than Sosua and has only a few Bars where the Nightlife is running. No wonder thats also the place the Prostitutes hanging around but it's also one of the only places one can go out at Night.

I have been together with my Girlfriend since a couple of years know and as beeing a German with a Dominican Girlfriend alost everyone knows about this fact. But the Police is not interested in that and have still arested her a few times, even if we been out TOGETHER as she would not go out there alone as she knows what could happen.

This realy p****es me of as I know a lot of people there and like to have a chat with my buddies, but know my Girl have to stay at home as she will be arrested. What a grat life for her. Since I life now in SD I hardly spend any night in BC anymore as I don't like the hassle anymore, so I have to spend my money in SD now.

The Police in BC should rather arrest themselve, this would cut the crime rate by half!

So long,
Stefan

 

[Ken]

Quite true. In fact, the job will never get done, without the local community helping.
Dominicans can apply 10 times more pressure on the local authorities, than a Gringo can.
I know it's a difficult position for a Dominican to take, as the bad guys label him a "lavo saco" and can resort to violence, in order to protect their illegal enterprises.
If there were enough pressure from well meaning Dominican mothers and fathers to get the "girlie bars" out of the downtown area, Sosua could shine like a brilliant star.

project9, I agree with Rocky. I have seen several instances where complaints from gringos didn't accomplish much, but one from a respected Dominican citizen was taken very seriously by the authorities. When it comes to getting complaints acted on, I figure one Dominican is equal to about 10 gringos.

 

[Rocky]

Sort of.

Rocky, do you guys have an kind of community organization?

In a manner of speaking, yes, but it has no name, no fees, no membership, just a community spirit amongst the good folks, here in Sosua, who are willing to drop what they are doing in a moment's notice, to go help somebody out in trouble.

 

[Mirador]

The witch hunt in Sosua, can it be legal ? for crying out loud! stop your bitching, nine out of ten of you guys would be thrown in the slammer back in your own home towns for carrying on like you do here in Sosua.

Can't wait for mister Cardinal for next Presidente de la Rep?blica.

Mirador

 

[Snuffy]

project9, I agree with Rocky. I have seen several instances where complaints from gringos didn't accomplish much, but one from a respected Dominican citizen was taken very seriously by the authorities. When it comes to getting complaints acted on, I figure one Dominican is equal to about 10 gringos.

so you guys don't mean jack to the authorities. You could be the best of citizens with a lot of money...but because you are not a dominican...you get treated like you are worth only 1/10th. If you have been there all those years...haven't you by now got to know the local authorities and do they not respect you more than that? It is time you guys organized that community group, include and ask for dominican assistance, and explore how you can improve the area. Isn't it in everyones interest to increase tourism in the area...property values go up...business makes more money...can't you get the large hotels involved? I would hold a meeting...select several bright members and have them schedule a meeting with the hotels one at a time. Go in and discuss the possibility of them taking part in your community group. Go to these hotels...professional and with your message well thought out. Employ someone like this dominican lawyer...fabio guzman...to approach local dominicans and ask for their assistance in your community group. Don't make it strickly a business community group...but include residents also. Your ideas should start off small enough that you can see success in your endeavors...slowly build your community.

 

[Berzin]

Posted on another thread, but since it applies to this one...



Greetings all!

Been lurking around the forum for quite some time, but never felt compelled to post. Hope no one minds if I sound off on this topic.

There's been a large movement on the part of the business community to finally get something done with regards to the prostitution issue in Sosua and Cabarete.

Basically, it comes down to deciding what sort of a tourist destination we want for Sosua and then taking the steps necessary to move in that direction. Aside from the few bars who live off prostitution, in whose interest is it to have such an open, flagrant prostitution business as recently existed in Sosua?

This is not for you to decide. Prostitution is legal in the Dominican Republic. If you are so up in arms about it take it to the governmental level and have them decide to make it illegal. Problem solved. Besides, the drugs and corruption is alot worse and does more damage to your community than a bunch of streetwalkers. You are way out of line on this one. And how do you explain the cops being engaged in their own illegal activity of shaking down prostitutes in exchange for sex and/or money?

The ai's do care, because whatever affects the destination affects us. Aside from the moral obligation a business has to confront problems affecting our community, if my guests can't walk the streets without being accosted (or approached, if you prefer) by prostitutes, they won't walk the streets. Restaurants and pubs complain that ai is killing the town, but the truth is quite simple: our guests eat and drink for free at my resort -- it's an expense for me to have them consume on-site. I would therefore much prefer they go elsewhere to dine, drink and party. But if all they see on their way to a restaurant or bar is prostitution, what image will they take back home with them?

If you want your guests to eat off-site, why charge AI prices? Just do not include this and that's that. Why are you complaining that it is an expense to feed your guests when you charge this as a service?
The bars where the hookers hang out in are for the most part(and I was there for 2 weeks back in july of 2004) on one street that if you keep walking will get you nowhere. Who is going to walk down this street if they are not specifically going to one of these bars? A couple with a few kids in tow will never head in that direction for ANYTHING because there is nothing of interest for anyone unless they are going to a bar.


More importantly, the reputation that Sosua has (and Cabarete will have if they're not careful) is extremely damaging to the economy. It cheapens the destination, therefore driving down prices and occupancy. There was a time when there were many, many more hotels in town than there are now, and all of them full to the rafters. You couldn't throw a rock in this town without hitting a nightclub, and they were all rocking. Then the prostitution took over. Fine, one can argue that prostitution was not the only reason the town slowed down, but no one can argue that it wasn't a contributing factor.

Absolutely not true. The world-wide recession of 2001 hit the DR extremely hard as a consequence of having a corrupt government who pockets every available resource for themselves and thier friends and an economy way too dependant on tourism. To blame the fall of tourism in Sosua to the prostitutes is just way out of line. Remember when the peso hit 63 to the dollar? Was that because of the prostitutes?

Sex tourism is a miniscule part of the whole tourism market, but where sex tourism is dominent (or even prevalent), other sorts of tourism die. A simple example: Two people visit a destination. One likes prostitution, one doesn't. When they get home, the one who doesn't go in for open prostitution tells all his friends not to come, as it's so infested with it. The one who likes this sort of prostitution goes home and tells all his friends to go for the cheap prostitution heaven. What happens after a few years of this?

It is also well-known that sex tourism is an extremely cheap tourism (even relatively speaking). Why would we cater to that when we can have a much more lucritive and abundant market?

Your concern is obviously money or else you would not be in business. You want a more lucrative market meanwhile you pay your workers terrible salaries. Then you blame these girls who have to do whatever they can to get by(because believe me, they are not getting rich doing what they do) because they would like to eat better. I would much rather give my money to the local hookers than to you, and I spend money on my vacations just like everybody else. At least my money is going directly to the people and not to you.

Ask around the business community about what prostitution has done and is doing to the town, and what benefits we would enjoy if we could control and reduce it. Ask a real estate agent what it would do for the value of properties and businesses. Ask a hotelier (one who doesn't allow prostitutes, of course) or a restauranteur. Or anyone who deals with tourism for that matter.

Why don't you ask the average dominican woman who would much rather be doing anything else besides prostitution. They can only make about 4,000 pesos a month cleaning hotel rooms and so there you have it. Pay something other than starvation wages at your hotel so that these girls have a chance in life, but I am sure you would not want to put your money where your mouth is.

Better yet, as the parents of the kids who go to school at the Hess academy on Pedro Clisante what they think of that street and what's going on just steps from where their children go to school.

No one is saying that prostitution can be eliminated, but if we don't get serious about controlling it, we won't have much of a town left. And the prostitutes? They'll just move on to Cabarete, or Bayahibe, or Samana or wherever.

You don't care about the ramifications of prostitution in the DR-you just want it out of your backyard so you can get away with charging more for your AI resort. Typical.


I understand that occasionally someone who isn't a prostitute might get picked up in a 'redada'. That's unfortunate and I can understand their frustration. But even the most indignant innocent person has to admit that better a very few get inconvenienced than that we allow the situation to continue unchecked. I dare say that losing one's job because there isn't enough tourism (or enough of the right kind of tourism) to sustain your wage would be the much larger inconvenience, and that inconvenience has been much more widespread these last years. How much better off would the town of Sosua be today had the authorities (not just the police) gotten serious years ago with the prostitution problem?

Sosua needs to get serious about poverty, which you do not add into the equation. I sense that you would rather be doing business in the sort of economic vacuum where the poor are shunted to the oustskirts of town while your AI looks like Shangri-La. Good luck on that one.

In every tourist destination in the world there exists prostitution. The difference is that most destinations control the problem. Go to Amsterdam, famous for the redlight district -- you can walk the streets two blocks away without being accosted. Even Bankok is cracking down on the sex trade these past five years. Are we to be the only ones in the world to allow working girls to walk the street simply because we don't want our police to ruffle feathers?

Your police are the most corrupt in this hemisphere-but I ense that is the fault of all the hookers and not on the fact that they get lousy wages-just like your hotel staff!!!!

Apologies if I've gone on, but it's not as simple as some people would like to think -- that the police are just out to make a few thousand pesos. The police, finally, are doing their part (or at least part of their part) to confront a problem with serious social and economic ramifications. I for one support their recent efforts, distasteful as many might find them, and hope this is indicative of a change in the thinking of those in decision-making positions.

No apaologies necessary-I know where you are coming from.

 

[Berzin]

My brother...

I blame 90% of the prostitution trade on these business owners who pay next to nothing to there employees and who clearly have no interest in the local people and rather focus on the money making end of it... there right I guess, but there business decisions do have consequences. What's a chica to do? Work 9-5 Monday thru Saturday and make 3,000-4,000 pesos a month while there electric bill and rent alone is close to or more than 5,000 pesos? There is food, transportation, and then some left to pay for every month.


Mister NYC for mayor of Sosua!!!! You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Rocky]

You got it.

so you guys don't mean jack to the authorities.

That's pretty much it, and, although your ideas are very constructive and would appear to be the way to go, it's been done. In fact, it's been done several times, and it was a complete waste of time effort & money.

We are still making progress, despite being stonewalled by local authorities.
As you suggested at the bottom of your post, we are slowly building our community.

 

[Eddy]

Deja-vu

Have any of you guys actually lived in the DR?????????
Everyone of your "Suggestions" have been tried many times, WITHOUT any results. Quit wasting your breath. You can't change sh*t. Live with it or..........

 

[Ken]

Good post, Eddy. But don't be shy, say what you really think.

Sounds like the bar conversations among some expats; the ones that sit around trying to mold the DR in the image of the US.

Not everyone is meant to live in the DR.

 

[Eddy]

Good post, Eddy. But don't be shy, say what you really think.

Sounds like the bar conversations among some expats; the ones that sit around trying to mold the DR in the image of the US.

Not everyone is meant to live in the DR.

LOL. Been there many times.

 

[Robert]

I blame 90% of the prostitution trade on these business owners who pay next to nothing to there employees and who clearly have no interest in the local people and rather focus on the money making end of it... there right I guess, but there business decisions do have consequences. What's a chica to do? Work 9-5 Monday thru Saturday and make 3,000-4,000 pesos a month while there electric bill and rent alone is close to or more than 5,000 pesos? There is food, transportation, and then some left to pay for every month.


Mister NYC for mayor of Sosua!!!! You hit the nail right on the head.

So if the employee doubled her wages, but she could still get US$100 from an idiot Gringo, what do you think she is going to do?

Prostitutes on the street having nothing to do with low wages. It's a much bigger, Dominican centered problem than that.
Do you have hookers in New York because Macy's isn't paying enough?

Plenty of decent girls work regular jobs and don't hang out on Duarte.
Why is that?

 

[Tor]

Interessting quote by Robert>

"Prostitutes on the street having nothing to do with low wages"

I guess many not familiar with Sosua have got a totaly wrong impresssion from this thread. Because in Sosua there is hardly no street prostitution. Like Rocky said, there is some thiefs acting like prostitutes on the streets, but almost no real street prostitution. In Sosua there is amost no hookers hanging on the corners offering sex. Whats happening, is that local girls goes to bars and discos, meet singel tourist, and when someone decides to go home togheter, the local girl ususally gets some money afterwards. Really it's not worse than that.

 

[Robert]

Interessting quote by Robert>

"Prostitutes on the street having nothing to do with low wages"

Whats happening, is that local girls goes to bars and discos, meet singel tourist, and when someone decides to go home togheter, the local girl ususally gets some money afterwards. Really it's not worse than that.

Let me rephrase it.
Prostitution in the DR has nothing to do with low wages.

And tell me, what happens if you decide not to pay the "local girl"?
Is going to create a scene? Is she is going to call the cops? Or is she just going to tell you how wonderful you are?

Give me a break!

It has nothing to do with your good looks, the sweet local girl, your green eyes or buffed body. It's called a pocket full of personality or $$$ if you want to be blunt.

The bars you are talking about are known hooker bars, you will not see the girl that works in the bank or the real estate agents hanging out there.
Single/married male tourists go there to pick up girls and pay money to have sex with them.
I think they call that prostitution. It's really nothing more than that...

 

[arturo]

clean up, or something else?

This is all much less complicated than you lot are making it seem. The police in Sosua and elsewhere in the country profit from prostitution and all other illegal activity. This is a small country with a closely knit community. Law enforcement authorities wield wide discretionary authority dating back to the Trujillo era. Very little, if any, criminal activity takes place in which they don't have financial interest and/or operational input - - including prostitution. The police take their cut and facilitate the activity by preventing it from devolving into catastrophic anarchy. This is fact and few in the know can honestly deny it.

If you have doubts, research the car theft scandal of a few months back as well as the Quirino affair (military and police are closely linked). They are emblematic of the relationship between criminals and law enforcement here, . The line that divides them is gray, blurry and full of holes.

Law enforcement here, with few exceptions, is motivated primarily by money. Drug trafficking and prostitution are worldwide sources of easy and plentiful cash - it's no different here. So, clean ups and crackdowns, in spite of the noise from outsiders has the same motive as the lion's share of all other law enforcement activity (see above if you aren't sure what I'm getting at here).

Let me rephrase it.
Prostitution in the DR has nothing to do with low wages.

And tell me, what happens if you decide not to pay the "local girl"?
Is going to create a scene? Is she is going to call the cops? Or is she just going to tell you how wonderful you are?

Give me a break!

It has nothing to do with your good looks, the sweet local girl, your green eyes or buffed body. It's called a pocket full of personality or $$$ if you want to be blunt.

The bars you are talking about are known hooker bars, you will not see the girl that works in the bank or the real estate agents hanging out there.
Single/married male tourists go there to pick up girls and pay money to have sex with them.
I think they call that prostitution. It's really nothing more than that...

 

[Tor]

Let me rephrase it.
Prostitution in the DR has nothing to do with low wages.

And tell me, what happens if you decide not to pay the "local girl"?
Is going to create a scene? Is she is going to call the cops? Or is she just going to tell you how wonderful you are?

Give me a break!

It has nothing to do with your good looks, the sweet local girl, your green eyes or buffed body. It's called a pocket full of personality or $$$ if you want to be blunt.

The bars you are talking about are known hooker bars, you will not see the girl that works in the bank or the real estate agents hanging out there.
Single/married male tourists go there to pick up girls and pay money to have sex with them.
I think they call that prostitution. It's really nothing more than that...

re Robert
I was just talking about the scene. Ofcourse it's prostitution, and ofcourse it's about money. I just clearified, that's there no real street prostitution in Sosua where a lot of hookers hanging on the corners offering sex. The places that's most common for the sex trade is Sosua Life Bar, Merengue Club and the Classico Disco upstairs. Theese places don't seems to scare away much other people, they are also poplular amongst young tourist couple with bracelets. If this Prostitution scene should be so ugly and scary, why is it that the Classico disco and Sosua Life bar is much more popular amongst regular tourist couples than the Woodoo Lounge ?

 

[Escott]

Let me rephrase it.
Prostitution in the DR has nothing to do with low wages.

Well I guess we disagree again, big surprise, huh?

I think not only do wages so low you can't feed your kids forces people to sell themselves but I believe that the life of the very poor forces people to sell themselves also.

I was driving down one of the worst sections "El Toubon?" of Charamicos, the road that goes to the river and I couldnt help but think "I would sell my body to get the hell out of here also".

Sadly I believe what I am writing. Not all the people that live there are prostitutes for sure but I can see how living in a 8x8 wood hut with a tin roof and having a family would give the feeling of being desperate.

Escott