as I stated, this ain't London. If the PD here did not have guns they would be used as pinata's. The revelers at the parade should take direction from the PD.Here is a photo of the police controlling things at London's Notting Hill carnival - notorious for unruly crowds and LOUD MUSIC. Not a gun (or feathers or furs) in site. If the Dominican police were properly trained they could do similar.
- Thread starter Dolores
- Start date
Tragedy in Santiago; policeman accused of accidentally killing a child
Really? All I see, including the Politur, are armed. Maybe not DIGISETT. But arming untrained police at a rowdy carnival seems like asking for trouble to me.
Damn C.Rey you weren't kidding, them boys really get down up there.
EE.UU: 1 muerto y 4 heridos en tiroteo durante desfile de Mardi Gras en Nueva Orleans | GenteTuya.com
La policía dijo inicialmente que cinco personas habían resultado heridas en el tiroteo en la ruta Krewe of Bacchus. Una de las víctimas, identificada como hombre, fue declarada muerta más tarde en un hospital, dijeron. Una niña también estaba entre los heridos. Una persona murió y otras cuatro r ...
gentetuya.com
"this type of behavior" insinuating it is common practice. It was an unusual and unfortunate accident. All of the unemployed opportunist making it an issue when they should be at work.
Absolutely positive, 7 people had jobs, 3 worked part time and the rest have not been gainfully employed since Trujillo was in office
Most were hooligans looking to finger point and place blame. Absolutely no constructive I intent.
The problem with your assessment Big is that you are obviously from somewhere else and don't understand the social dynamics here. This isn't the USA or China or Russia where there is such a "Police State" mentality that no one can challenge the authority or the actions of the police, EVER. The fact that you are even "calling people out" for being present in the streets during an OBVIOUS celebratory day of social gathering and refering to it as "milling about" and "loitering" is troubling. The people are out, enjoying themselves in their home country, likely on their street/in their community on a festival/festive day. This is normal behavior here, and in most of the world. There isn't such a tight control of the streets like you might see in another country that would even rationally give the police the authority to interfere in what is happening. "The streets" of the barrio don't belong to "The government" in the same way they would in the USA. They are more thought of as belonging to "the people" and the people you see in the video are almost certainly either from the area, or have relatives with whom they are spending time who live in that area, probably on that very street.
The entire atmosphere of socialization and how one enjoys oneself is different. In the U.S. you would probably need a permit in order to be able to have a gathering like this outside because of how the government regulates public spaces. It isn't like that here. This is a spontaneous (or regular/traditional) social gathering and that is not only normal but extremely frequent such that it is a big part of the culture. You are literally trying to criminalize normal and positive social behavior and the humans who are engaging in it to fit your agenda.
There are some laws that exist that the police were attempting to enforce. Namely those surrounding use of speakers in public. These laws are VERY new, and for hundreds and hundreds of years people have gotten together in the streets and made noise during times of festiveness and celebration. This is *normal* all over the world. Speakers and their ability to produce deafeningly loud sounds are a recent phenomenon and much more recently there have been perceived abuses of use of these speakers such that some folks believe that they cause unnecessary nuisance or disturbance to the ability of other's to enjoy themselves in peace. That issue is relevant, and both sides of the argument have legitimate points and grievances and Dominican Society will need to figure out where the line needs to be drawn on the issue.
What is not acceptable, period, is a kid getting killed over something so trivial and ridiculous and questionable. The police made the situation worse. The speaker was not as much a danger to society as this cop with his gun out shooting people. And Dominicans of basically all social classes, but especially the poor are voicing their sentiments and thoughts in regards to that.
And that is the problem with legalism. It becomes about who has "the right" to say and do what to whom and often those on "the side of the law" forget the human element and start overreaching. People in this thread are blaming the father for killing his son "because he didn't do what the police told him to do." It's a ridiculous and dare I say it despicable argument based on a belief in the absolute authority of "the law" and "the police" and it goes from "The Police can confiscate a speaker" to "if someone interferes in any way with their activity then they can pull out a lethal weapon, discharge it irresponsibly, and kill a minor who is sitting in a chair minding his business. Oh and by the way it's not the fault of the person who was holding and irresponsibly discharged the firearm, it's the fault of the minor's father for arguing with the police about his speaking being confiscated." That is a very irresponsible way to think and will lead to more unnecessary deaths bceause you are shifting the burden from the actual person who committed the act to some peripheral factor because "Whatever the police do they aren't in the wrong, they did it because they had to or because they felt like they were "in fear of their lives" or because someone disobeyed their authority."
Apparently Dominicans aren't buying that line of thought. The future of this police officer is in question. Who knows what will happen to him. The future of the dead boy is very much certain. And for him to have not been harming or bothering anyone from what I can see, that just isn't right. This should not have happened, and all of the circumstances that directly led up to this need to be analyzed to prevent this from happening to anyone else in the future.
The entire atmosphere of socialization and how one enjoys oneself is different. In the U.S. you would probably need a permit in order to be able to have a gathering like this outside because of how the government regulates public spaces. It isn't like that here. This is a spontaneous (or regular/traditional) social gathering and that is not only normal but extremely frequent such that it is a big part of the culture. You are literally trying to criminalize normal and positive social behavior and the humans who are engaging in it to fit your agenda.
There are some laws that exist that the police were attempting to enforce. Namely those surrounding use of speakers in public. These laws are VERY new, and for hundreds and hundreds of years people have gotten together in the streets and made noise during times of festiveness and celebration. This is *normal* all over the world. Speakers and their ability to produce deafeningly loud sounds are a recent phenomenon and much more recently there have been perceived abuses of use of these speakers such that some folks believe that they cause unnecessary nuisance or disturbance to the ability of other's to enjoy themselves in peace. That issue is relevant, and both sides of the argument have legitimate points and grievances and Dominican Society will need to figure out where the line needs to be drawn on the issue.
What is not acceptable, period, is a kid getting killed over something so trivial and ridiculous and questionable. The police made the situation worse. The speaker was not as much a danger to society as this cop with his gun out shooting people. And Dominicans of basically all social classes, but especially the poor are voicing their sentiments and thoughts in regards to that.
And that is the problem with legalism. It becomes about who has "the right" to say and do what to whom and often those on "the side of the law" forget the human element and start overreaching. People in this thread are blaming the father for killing his son "because he didn't do what the police told him to do." It's a ridiculous and dare I say it despicable argument based on a belief in the absolute authority of "the law" and "the police" and it goes from "The Police can confiscate a speaker" to "if someone interferes in any way with their activity then they can pull out a lethal weapon, discharge it irresponsibly, and kill a minor who is sitting in a chair minding his business. Oh and by the way it's not the fault of the person who was holding and irresponsibly discharged the firearm, it's the fault of the minor's father for arguing with the police about his speaking being confiscated." That is a very irresponsible way to think and will lead to more unnecessary deaths bceause you are shifting the burden from the actual person who committed the act to some peripheral factor because "Whatever the police do they aren't in the wrong, they did it because they had to or because they felt like they were "in fear of their lives" or because someone disobeyed their authority."
Apparently Dominicans aren't buying that line of thought. The future of this police officer is in question. Who knows what will happen to him. The future of the dead boy is very much certain. And for him to have not been harming or bothering anyone from what I can see, that just isn't right. This should not have happened, and all of the circumstances that directly led up to this need to be analyzed to prevent this from happening to anyone else in the future.
The other point that needs to be made is did the policeman have any right to tell the father to reduce the noise or to stop the noise. I doubt if he did. The legislation gives recommended permitted decibels in various areas and before after 10 pm. However , I thought that police action is only after 10 pm and the action commenced with a complaint and that the action is the confiscation of the loud speakers. I feel sure the policeman did not measure the decibels and I doubt if there was a complaint made .
Everything you say is true.. except one item
That under current conditions in the DR, the father did not have enough knowledge of how things work, that he challenging these Police and thought they would just back down ? what outcome was he looking for ?.
What is so ILLOGICAL about this , explain it to us . without using Emotions only .. use Logic
This is not the same as blaming the Father for the Death of his Son .. that Fault is 100% the Police officers Fault because the officer started shooting, which was 100% not necessary .
Compare same Logic to
If someone Held you up for you Cell phone, and you KNOW he has a Gun , do you Challenge him, so he Pulls OUT his Gun and maybe shoots you ,??
No of course not .. Sadly some of these Cops are no better than the Thugs who Rob you on the street .
The father knows this ... WE may not live there and understand the Culture, but HE does .
So please don't make those of us who at trying to looks at this from a rational perspective as if we are Cold and uncaring .
this is a terrible tragedy , and a Murder .. the Cop has to, and will pay , dearly I hope .
Until changes are made ( and that is the responsibility of the Dom Govt up to the office of the President )
. don't challenge the Police , its not the right move.
Earlier in this thread, in fact my first post was to this effect exactly.
The father could have taken numerous steps to reduce the risk of something like this happening. Personally I don't go to gatherings like this because it's so easy for someone to do something dangerous and you are there with all of it going down. A perfect example, and something that is much more along the lines of what I'm accustomed to is the news article that was posted earlier in this thread a page back or so about shootings during Mardi Gras. I don't really like big crowds and uncontrolled gatherings precisely because anything can happen.
Although he "understands", I think that the way that I've seen people here and even for example in Cuba interact with the police is much more aggressively. People sort of understand that they greatly outnumber the police and that most of their friends and family are close by and they feel like they can stick their chest out a little more. Even in the video you see the police pushing people and people pushing the police back - that would not happen in the US because the police would not put themselves in a position where they got into a shoving match with people before drawing down on them almost immediately and then arresting them.
The father could have taken numerous steps to reduce the risk of something like this happening. Personally I don't go to gatherings like this because it's so easy for someone to do something dangerous and you are there with all of it going down. A perfect example, and something that is much more along the lines of what I'm accustomed to is the news article that was posted earlier in this thread a page back or so about shootings during Mardi Gras. I don't really like big crowds and uncontrolled gatherings precisely because anything can happen.
Although he "understands", I think that the way that I've seen people here and even for example in Cuba interact with the police is much more aggressively. People sort of understand that they greatly outnumber the police and that most of their friends and family are close by and they feel like they can stick their chest out a little more. Even in the video you see the police pushing people and people pushing the police back - that would not happen in the US because the police would not put themselves in a position where they got into a shoving match with people before drawing down on them almost immediately and then arresting them.
Many of the PN here (unfortunately) carry the same wild animal gene you often hear
me talk about. There is no controlling nor containing it, only having the understanding
that it is indeed prevalent throughout this country... so move accordingly.
* Santiago's staff achieves 15-year sentence against policeman who killed child during carnival celebration in 2023*
"Because of the wisdom, the accused must have known that he could not remove and manipulate a weapon in these circumstances," the Santiago court (RD) reflected Thursday, September 19, 2024. The Santiago Prosecutor ' s Office managed to find a court of this judicial demarcation to find evidentiary sufficiency and impose a 15-year sentence of greater imprisonment against the National Police officer who committed the intentional murder of a child, when he shot, wanting to kill the victim's father, in the midst of the celebration of the Santiago carnival in February 2023.
The conviction was imposed by the First Collegiate Court of this judicial district against Corporal Alejandro Castro Cruz, who, in the opinion of the judge, did not commit the fact in the exercise of the duty conferred on him by the institution of order, but, which violated the protocols required of him by the body to safeguard the lives of the citizens, a statement raised by the Santiago Prosecutor's Office in its indictment. The debate during the substantive hearing that lasted for more than 4 hours, before the court withdrew to deliberate, was led by the accusing body, the litigating prosecutor Pedro Martínez, who, based on multiple expert, material and witness evidence, raised the relevance of imposing the custodial sentence to the court.
The Santiago Prosecutor's Office destroyed the presumption of innocence of the defendant, whose defense promoted the theory of the legal excuse of provocation, elements that the investigating body rejected by imposing the criterion that the provocation, moreover, would have occurred in a scenario without interruption.
The sentence is imposed in response to the legal qualification set out in articles 186, 295, 304 and 309 of the Dominican Criminal Code, which criminalize and provide for penalties against abuse of authority against individuals, beatings and injuries, as well as voluntary homicide. Because of the wisdom, the accused must have known that he could not remove and manipulate a weapon in these circumstances because because of this action there was a fateful fact, reflected the court, composed of judges Juan Carlos Colón, Claribel Mateo and Yasmin de los Santos. The court indicated that the accused acted with the intention of taking the life of citizen Anthony Martinez, wounding his 11-year-old son D.J.M.T. with the shooting. Directorate General for Communication, Press, and RRPP Public Prosecutor's Office. R.D.Thursday, September 19, 2024
Another bad apple removed from the P.N. force.
Good riddance!
Source: https://gentetuya.com/
Google Translated.
"Because of the wisdom, the accused must have known that he could not remove and manipulate a weapon in these circumstances," the Santiago court (RD) reflected Thursday, September 19, 2024. The Santiago Prosecutor ' s Office managed to find a court of this judicial demarcation to find evidentiary sufficiency and impose a 15-year sentence of greater imprisonment against the National Police officer who committed the intentional murder of a child, when he shot, wanting to kill the victim's father, in the midst of the celebration of the Santiago carnival in February 2023.
The conviction was imposed by the First Collegiate Court of this judicial district against Corporal Alejandro Castro Cruz, who, in the opinion of the judge, did not commit the fact in the exercise of the duty conferred on him by the institution of order, but, which violated the protocols required of him by the body to safeguard the lives of the citizens, a statement raised by the Santiago Prosecutor's Office in its indictment. The debate during the substantive hearing that lasted for more than 4 hours, before the court withdrew to deliberate, was led by the accusing body, the litigating prosecutor Pedro Martínez, who, based on multiple expert, material and witness evidence, raised the relevance of imposing the custodial sentence to the court.
The Santiago Prosecutor's Office destroyed the presumption of innocence of the defendant, whose defense promoted the theory of the legal excuse of provocation, elements that the investigating body rejected by imposing the criterion that the provocation, moreover, would have occurred in a scenario without interruption.
The sentence is imposed in response to the legal qualification set out in articles 186, 295, 304 and 309 of the Dominican Criminal Code, which criminalize and provide for penalties against abuse of authority against individuals, beatings and injuries, as well as voluntary homicide. Because of the wisdom, the accused must have known that he could not remove and manipulate a weapon in these circumstances because because of this action there was a fateful fact, reflected the court, composed of judges Juan Carlos Colón, Claribel Mateo and Yasmin de los Santos. The court indicated that the accused acted with the intention of taking the life of citizen Anthony Martinez, wounding his 11-year-old son D.J.M.T. with the shooting. Directorate General for Communication, Press, and RRPP Public Prosecutor's Office. R.D.Thursday, September 19, 2024
Another bad apple removed from the P.N. force.
Good riddance!
Source: https://gentetuya.com/
Google Translated.
Yea I spoz, but 15 years for a kid is a pittance. Hopefully he won't last that long.
In the USA, I think cops are segregated from the general population. Is that true here in the DR?
He will be eligible for release in 4 years, says a friend in the prosecutor's office. There are details that have not been released to the press because the incident became a social media circus. In brief, all is not as it seems.
the National Police in all former Spanish colonies have many things in common, two things that stand out are brutality and a total disregard or ignorance of their local laws; I know this because I have spent time in the Philippines, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, and Chile; and it's no different here, I have been here for a few years now; I have had interactions with the tourist and traffic Police with no problem, but the DNP sends a little shiver down my spine, maybe it's the black balaclavas and unis, haha