Stay in power? Hahaha his term was over this month. He wanted to change the constitution for land reform. The ruling class got rid of him the same way they always do because they are not compelled to share what they have stolen.
- Thread starter A.Hidalgo
- Start date
Watch you back Fernandez?
Stay in power? Hahaha his term was over this month. He wanted to change the constitution for land reform. The ruling class got rid of him the same way they always do because they are not compelled to share what they have stolen.
Zelaya was one of those that illegally logged huge areas of Honduras. Father killed priests, amongst others who were protesting their illegal logging. You really need to do more research on Mr Zelaya before you make a statement about his land reform plans. Like Chavez's land reform- great for you if you haven't got any. Zelaya had already preprogrammed his 4 urn results and he was going to call a constitution assembly on the night of the election and remain in power.
BBC News - Honduras ex-head Zelaya's meeting with Lobo is delayed
Frustrada por segunda vez reuni?n entre Zelaya y Lobo
and from the President's website:
Presidencia de la Repblica
I noticed all day yesterday (Saturday), DR papers knew meeting was cancelled but English language press, even The Times (UK), was saying it was still on.
Frustrada por segunda vez reuni?n entre Zelaya y Lobo
and from the President's website:
Presidencia de la Repblica
I noticed all day yesterday (Saturday), DR papers knew meeting was cancelled but English language press, even The Times (UK), was saying it was still on.
It's now clear Honduras played a fine rope-a-dope stratergy, surviving the esteemed international community's best shot, Chavez's money and extortion, Brazil's complicity...and had normal elections with a strong turnout, despite Mel's pleas to the contrary.
Why should Honduras let Mel leave? He has multiple indictments to answer and would be a clear flight risk. The "wounds" in Homduras won't "heal" until he is brought to justice and his case opened for all to see the facts.
Gunboat diplomacy? Hell, nearly the entire world tried to strangle Honduras economically. And the US was part and parcel to that act, but only a smaller part.
If anybody used "gunboat diplomacy" it was Chavez, not the US.
I admire Honduras for sticking to their Constitution and not caving to the rest of the world.
Why should Honduras let Mel leave? He has multiple indictments to answer and would be a clear flight risk. The "wounds" in Homduras won't "heal" until he is brought to justice and his case opened for all to see the facts.
Gunboat diplomacy? Hell, nearly the entire world tried to strangle Honduras economically. And the US was part and parcel to that act, but only a smaller part.
If anybody used "gunboat diplomacy" it was Chavez, not the US.
I admire Honduras for sticking to their Constitution and not caving to the rest of the world.
as i said, it is useless to argue with people still stuck in a cold war mentality. what you have in all these countries you named is not socialism. sure, they migh call themselves socialists, but that is more for nostalgic and populist reasons. just like the prd calling itself revolutionary.
than again, americans believe obama is a socialist, and having a working healthcare systeman would constitute some sort of facism. even during the bush years, i've had people in the us tell me that their political system had "degenerated to socialism". maybe instead of telling people to do research on mr. zelaya, you should do some research on what socialism is, and what it's not. it is a pitty the us education system is so bad, because this allows the population of the most powerfull country on earth to be brainwashed by fox news and people like glenn beck. i mean, "conservatives" while demonizing the state, call the leftwing "liberals", that alone tells us that they have no clue. people that don't even know that the label they try to denouce the opposition with fit's their own worldvies, should really get an education before they go on tv.
capitalism, socialism and communism are labels of the past, that no longer stick, thats all.
the point is this, if zelaya indeed broke the constitution, you have a constitutional or supreme court to rule his act unconstitutional, and therefore void. if those institutions don't work, tough luck, maybe you shouldn't have crippled them when it was in your favor. there is no need to call the military, and upstage a coup. and if after removing the president from power, you have to resort to kidnapping, torturing, and shooting civilians, you are in the wrong.
it is highly doubfull that the constitutional reform would have been in place before zelayas term was over. just look at the dominican republic, the reform is being declared in january, three years after it was initiated. and a president might change the constitution to be able to run for office once again, but that doesn't mean he will be elected, as was the case with hipolito. if the goldpistas cared about the constitution so much, why did they resort to unconstitutional means to defend it, and human rights violations to uphold their regime?
everything that happened before the coup is not as simple as you are trying to make it out to be. i don't know if you really believe what you say, or if you are doing it for the sake of your argument, but if it is the latter, i am an informed and educated person, so please don't insult my intelligence.
last but not least, comparing murder rates is really not the game you want play when arguing against countries that try to break away from the us model of government and economy in the americas.
now, coming back to the dominican republic, i don't think fernandez has to watch his back, because the thought of the dominican military staging a coup is funny at best, they lack the necessary skill and resources.
Mariot , first of all I'm not American and I've plenty of relatives that have lived in socialist countries as well as some from Cuba that lived under Castro's thumb. Living in Canada where we have a strong socialist party in Opposition, and socialist policies ( relative to the USA) There is nothing wrong with my education, and I've belonged to enough international unions to know the difference between socialists and communists. Perhaps you are the one lacking in KNOWLEDGE. The labels and methods to gain control may be different the thought processes are the same. Everything done in Honduras by the defacto government except the removal of Zelaya from the country was done iaw their laws and constitution. Their SC tried to stop Zelaya but he refused to obey the law or constitution. I don't know why I try, it's useless to argue with people that minimize illegal actions because they think the ends justify the means.
With all due respect, the Supreme Court did rule Zelaya's actions unconstitutional and that he be removed from power.
What would you recommend, porfi que se vaya?????
Speaking of "socialism", apart from the fact that they go bankrupt, what about the fact that they kill and torture their own citizens, ie Cuba, or otherwise intimidate them into submission or use whatever they can to suppress free thought, ie Chavez???? I expect a decent response from you "leftists" after Jesus comes the second time.
Well, Honduras is in Central America and their bitterest memories of oppression, thousands tortured and disappeared etc. do not come from the Left, that's for certain.
Just to keep it within topic, I bet Leonel is disappointed about this missed opportunity to shine on the world stage.
Just to keep it within topic, I bet Leonel is disappointed about this missed opportunity to shine on the world stage.
With all due respect Chiri, I think democracy and the current Honduran administration will do a better job of assuring that doesn't happen again than the communists, al la Castro and Chavez.
Speaking of Leonel, what we he thinking anyway? Ja se metio la pata.
It's also worth noting that the Honduran constitution, dubbed by mediator Oscar Arias as one of the worst in the world (I tend to agree, but am not a constitutional scholar by any means), does not allow for any sort of impeachment of a sitting president. So how is one to remove a sitting president in Honduras?
I think Leonel was thinking of his "legacy" and his role in Latin American politics, much as Lula was when Brazil became involved in this nonsense by offering up the embassy.
Leonel's move was shrewd: by offering to meet with Pepe Lobo (as opposed to Micheletti) he can appease those who support the interim government. Pepe is "clean" since he was not directly involved in this, and had been selected as a candidate months before Mel's removal. (As had all candidates, for that matter.)
By also offering to meet with Mel, he can appease those who support the old ways. The DR moves up in the international community's eyes and he gets the attention of those who might support an important appointment for him post-presidency. Everyone wins! (If it would have happened...)
Totally incorrect. You cannot rewrite history. The Honduran Constitution CLEARLY states what happens when a sitting President does what Mel did. The only issue where they screwed up was exiling Mel. That's it. They shouldn't have done that, but that single mistake AFTER the Congress and SC ordered the arrest...twice...does not nullify what Mel was found guilty of by constitutional process.
Just because there isn't a US-style impeachment process doesn't mean that the law in Honduras wasn't followed.
And why should Arias' opinion on a constitution of another country even matter? Should Castro's opinion on the Israeli constitution carry any weight? Should Iceland's opinion of the old or new DR constitution matter?
Leonel met with Mel already. And I understand he agreed to mediate...or something...between Mel and Lobo. One small problem: Mel has been indicted under 17-18 serious crimes against the state and cannot leave Honduras. I understand treason is one of the charges, because the constitution staes someone who did what Mel did is legally guilty of treason.
Read up on what exactly happened. You may not LIKE it, you may WANT Mel to do a Chavez, and you may LIKE Chavez and Castro and their idea of socialism...but it doesn't change the Honduran constitution and the many votes the congress and judgements the SC did that have ALL gone against Mel.
Perhaps Leonel can go to the Brazilian Embassy to intervene...but wait! Brazil doesn't recognize Lobo as the Prez elect!
Oh, what a wicked web we weave...:cheeky:
I have wondered from the beginning if many really cared what the Honduran people want. Everybody was given a chance to vote and make their voice count, including Zelayas minions. Apparently, they didn't heed his command to boycott the election because the turnout, 61%, was more than the election that brought him to power.
Various Latin American countries have recognized the vote as legitimate and Leonel is trying to get back on the bandwagon and save face after siding with Chavez from the beginning. Leonel is a real chameleon, that's for sure.
Various Latin American countries have recognized the vote as legitimate and Leonel is trying to get back on the bandwagon and save face after siding with Chavez from the beginning. Leonel is a real chameleon, that's for sure.
Sigh.... I am not talking about the steps the SC and Congress took to remove Mel and I never said the law was/wasn't followed- that has already been rehasehed several times and I am trying to keep this related to the DR. I was talking about an explicit provision in the Constitution that allows for impeachment, which, had it existed, would have prevented all this confusion. In fact, I have spoken with a Honduran congressman on the matter, and he himself lamented the sorry state of the constitution and its lack of an impeachment article.
And, actually, I have read up on the matter, quite a bit. Please refer to my posts in the Honduras thread for my opinions. (Especially # 116) And that's the last I'll say on the Honduran Constitution!
To bring it back to the DR, this whole matter has me curious about Leonel's intentions. Is he trying to position himself as a Latin American Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter, a former president who is still active in world politics? Could he be gunning for a UN appointment?
All the confusion? That Mel created HIMSELF by completely ignoring the Honduran constitution and numerous orders of the SC? Repeatedly?
That confusion could have been cleared up?
Yeah. It was the fact that the Honduran constitution didn't have an impeachment clause-even though they had PLENTY of stuff directly related to hom a Prez could get put in the penalty box-that caused the "crisis."
And all Leonel is doing is a pimp audition for a cushy do-nothing UN gig when he's done.
Wrong!!!! Primo you need to look for better info than you are actually reading. The miss-information some of you guys are spewing is laughable.
From the horses mouth, the Honduran Tribunal Suprema Electoral. After much delay (wink wink
) and almost 2 weeks after the elections held on November 29, the results actually indicate a turnout of 46% NOT 61%.Votos Blanco: 59,391
Votos Nulo: 91,811
Total: 2,280,218
Total Actas: 99.23%
Doing the math and subtracting the null and blank votes the total is 2,129,016 voters. Total number of voters was 4.6 million, making the total participation 46%. Because of the lack of international election observation standards on the days leading up to and the day of the election, that number is probably lower. Btw that is less than when Zelaya was properly elected in 2005.
Tribunal Suprema Electoral Escrutinio
Last edited:
Las2137
Your posts are always considered, rational & open for further debate. I congratulate you on your restraint & desire to 'Open Up' some areas of discussions & regret deeply that 'others' can not share your knowledge of the country, it's history & potential future. ~ Grahame.
Your posts are always considered, rational & open for further debate. I congratulate you on your restraint & desire to 'Open Up' some areas of discussions & regret deeply that 'others' can not share your knowledge of the country, it's history & potential future. ~ Grahame.
Wrong!!!! Primo you need to look for better info than you are actually reading. The miss-information some of you guys are spewing is laughable.
From the horses mouth, the Honduran Tribunal Suprema Electoral. After much delay (wink wink
Votos Blanco: 59,391
Votos Nulo: 91,811
Total: 2,280,218
Total Actas: 99.23%
Doing the math and subtracting the null and blank votes the total is 2,129,016 voters. Total number of voters was 4.6 million, making the total participation 46%. Because of the lack of international election observation standards on the days leading up to and the day of the election, that number is probably lower. Btw that is less than when Zelaya was properly elected in 2005.
Tribunal Suprema Electoral Escrutinio
I had heard the number was actually 49%, however considering the difficulty the million or so Hondurans in the states had with voting, the fear the resistance and Zelayalista put in to the average folks I'm suprised it was even 40%. In the end itisn't as bad as Venezuela where Chavez had a high percentage because the opposition didn't show up to vote in protest. The election itself was proper, and as far as Zelaya, he himself has said he won through fraud, as was suspected.
Wrong!!!! Primo you need to look for better info than you are actually reading. The miss-information some of you guys are spewing is laughable.
From the horses mouth, the Honduran Tribunal Suprema Electoral. After much delay (wink wink
Votos Blanco: 59,391
Votos Nulo: 91,811
Total: 2,280,218
Total Actas: 99.23%
Doing the math and subtracting the null and blank votes the total is 2,129,016 voters. Total number of voters was 4.6 million, making the total participation 46%. Because of the lack of international election observation standards on the days leading up to and the day of the election, that number is probably lower. Btw that is less than when Zelaya was properly elected in 2005.
Tribunal Suprema Electoral Escrutinio
Good grief, now the WSJ isn't credible. What do you recommend, the Listin Diario???
Honduran Election Gains Backing - WSJ.com